is the pope teaching work for the dead

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There is only one who ever kept the Commadments, it is Christ. When you learn that you cannot keep them, you turn to Him who can. He takes care of this not you or I.

If one has not done good works all of their lives but has a change of heart at the last moment of life, Christ will gladly take them in to himself. So it is not good works that save you but faith in Christ. If at an earlier time one comes to Christ good works will flow from this one because of Christ not because of himself. He just makes the choice to do Gods work / will here on earth. This one should be looking for no gain or credit, accept that he or she is in the vineyard doing only what he or she is asked to do for the Glory of God. This strikes the Chord of humility and is a very important place to search out the why and reasons of our faith, our hope in Christ.

God Bless
 
** Catholicrcia Said:There is only one who ever kept the Commadments, it is Christ. When you learn that you cannot keep them, you turn to Him who can. He takes care of this not you or I.

He also taught the faithful who love him and have faith in him to follow the commandments also, but is it not our free will to choose to do good for Christ out of Faith.? Its his free grace we choose to obey or not. He gave this free gift to us, he does not force us to love him.

I also agree with you that if we beg for Mercy after being a hardened sinner Christ will forgive us , however this is why us Catholics have Purgatory, I dont believe according to my faith that a person who sins his whole life goes directly to Heaven. Yet I believe if they beg for Mercy God will grant it for them, however Sacred Scripture does claim one will have to be purified of his sins before entrance into Heaven**.

SARA
 
**Tom, BTW

The doctrine of the imputation of the perfect obedience of Christ to the believer’s account states that a man can continue in sin and yet be righteous in the sight of God.**

You believe in Imputed Righteousness
It teaches that the man who has departed from the organizational pattern of the New Testament church can be saved without restoring the organization of the church; it teaches that the man who is involved in perverting the mission of the church can be saved without restoring the mission of the church. Hence, it altogether undermines the restoration plea. Both logically and practically, the doctrine of the imputation of the perfect obedience of Christ to the believer’s account has depreciated the necessity of obedience to the Lord.

If this is so, then we should not tell them that what they are doing is wrong lest we cause them to go to Hell. So long as they are saved in the condition they are in, why inform them of the things which they are doing which are wrong

Sara
 
**Tom

The doctrine of the imputation of the perfect obedience of Christ to the believer’s account is nowhere taught in the Scriptures. Because it is not taught within the Scriptures, it is without divine authority. The propagation of this doctrine is the propagation of a doctrine devised by man which renders worship vain (Mt. 15:8-9).

The doctrine of the imputation of the perfect obedience of Christ to the believer’s account is inconsistently applied. My brethren will not tell me why the perfect obedience of Christ covers sins of ignorance and sins of the weakness of the flesh but will not cover wilful sins. And, of course, this raises another question: which sins do I commit that are not “weaknesses of the flesh”? When I rebell against God, is this “strength of the flesh”? Actually, all my sins are weaknesses of the flesh. If this doctrine can cover one sin which a man does not repent of, it can cover all sins. **

Sara
 
**Tom

Imputed Righteousness
It is a departure from the one faith that was revealed by God. Its logical consequences are devastating to the Christian. It implies that one can be saved while continuing in sin. Consequently, those who are faithful to the Lord must oppose this doctrine with every ounce of their being.**

SARA
 
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catholic-rcia:
There is only one who ever kept the Commadments, it is Christ. When you learn that you cannot keep them, you turn to Him who can. He takes care of this not you or I.

If one has not done good works all of their lives but has a change of heart at the last moment of life, Christ will gladly take them in to himself. So it is not good works that save you but faith in Christ. If at an earlier time one comes to Christ good works will flow from this one because of Christ not because of himself. He just makes the choice to do Gods work / will here on earth. This one should be looking for no gain or credit, accept that he or she is in the vineyard doing only what he or she is asked to do for the Glory of God. This strikes the Chord of humility and is a very important place to search out the why and reasons of our faith, our hope in Christ.

God Bless
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I have often seen evidence of a sola fide leaning in your posts and your ideas.

Could you explain what separates you personally from those who embrace sola fide?

When you say, “So it is not good works that save you but faith in Christ,” you do not sound Catholic to me. This does not mean that you do not place works with faith in some way.

Now, I do not agree with Sara either, but I believe her view is more common within Catholicism than is yours. To me Sara seems to be responding against sola fide, but by suggesting that our works are weighted and measured to determine our salvation. This is also not Catholic in my understanding. It is again common in the CoJCoLDS, but I do not think it is a good understanding for the LDS either.

On Purgatory: Purgatory is where the Justified go. We are talking about who is saved or who is justified. No one is justified in Purgatory. The temporal component of sin is purged in purgatory, but justification has already happened or one would not be in purgatory. I guess I should note that Justification and Sanctification are linked throughout life, but after death those who have not sufficiently completed the PROCESS of Justification/Sanctification are hell bound. Most of those who have sufficiently completed the PROCESS will be further cleansed in Purgatory, but their salvation is assured. After purgatory in Catholic theology ALL folks go to heaven.

Charity, TOm
 
sara888 said:
Tom, BTW

The doctrine of the imputation of the perfect obedience of Christ to the believer’s account states that a man can continue in sin and yet be righteous in the sight of God.

You believe in Imputed Righteousness
It teaches that the man who has departed from the organizational pattern of the New Testament church can be saved without restoring the organization of the church; it teaches that the man who is involved in perverting the mission of the church can be saved without restoring the mission of the church. Hence, it altogether undermines the restoration plea. Both logically and practically, the doctrine of the imputation of the perfect obedience of Christ to the believer’s account has depreciated the necessity of obedience to the Lord.

If this is so, then we should not tell them that what they are doing is wrong lest we cause them to go to Hell. So long as they are saved in the condition they are in, why inform them of the things which they are doing which are wrong

Sara
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I do not believe in “imputed righteousness.”

I must apologize that I misstated my position once at the end of post #56. I meant to say that “infused righteousness” is the best read of LDS scriptures.

I did say that post 20 & 21 state “infused righteousness.”

I have specifically stated this a few times. I join with Catholic scholars and call “imputed righteousness” legal fiction. I have called this a reformist invention, I have suggested it leads to one of the most concerning heresy in all of Christiandom, “easy-believism.”

I am sorry that I confused you by misspeaking at the end of post #56.

CatholicRCIA may in fact embrace “imputed righteousness” based on his words, but I will let him explain.

I sure wish I could edit the end of post #56, but I hope you can see that I have regularly spoken against “imputed righteousness.”

Charity, TOm
 
Is there not an LDS equivalent to purgatory where the “exalted” pay the penalty for their sins? (this in addition to the “spirit prison” where saved but not exalted go to await judgement and subsequent entry into “lesser kingdoms”)
 
paul barlow:
The poor souls in Purgatory cannot pray
for themselves so please remember to
include them in your
personal prayers.

Viva Pope Benedict XVI

if the dead are saved by grace alone there would be no purgatory. so works are needed. if they did not do them here. should we then not do them for those in purgatory.
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Purgatory grace and good works are all in agreement. In Catholic theology, as the Council onf Trent says, faith is the beginning salvation. Through this faith God gives us grace to know the truth. We can either accept the grace and do Gods will or we can reject it. By accepting it we make ourselves stronger and more succeptible to Gods grace.

Salvation is a continual process of being justified and made more like Christ. We were saved yesterday, we are saved today, and we will be saved tommorrow. We are called to perfection like our heavenly Father is perfect.

Purgatory is the completion of this process for those who died in Gods grace. It is a purification of souls who have not been perfected in the love of God. So we pray for those souls that they may recieve the love of God and grow more like Christ. We also pray that the suffering that they go through in this process is relieved. It is in no way contradictory to the grace of God.
 
**Now, I do not agree with Sara either, but I believe her view is more common within Catholicism than is yours. To me Sara seems to be responding against sola fide, but by suggesting that our works are weighted and measured to determine our salvation. This is also not Catholic in my understanding

Sara Says,
I was suggesting I do not profess Imputed Rightousness as you do. I am not claiming works save us , Faith does, but you still fail to define what real FAITH in Christ means to a Christian, I do not see seperation of Faith and works as they are one.

Faith saves us, but we are judged according to this Faith and how we lived or obeyed Christ commands.So to suggest that as a Catholic I feel I merit Heaven is absurd. First of all if I died today I would not go to Heaven since nothing Holy and unclean may enter. I would go to purgatory with Gods Mercy. Heaven is a reward according to the bible in the gospels

. Matthew5 “12”: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. **
 
sara888 said:
Tom

Imputed Righteousness
It is a departure from the one faith that was revealed by God. Its logical consequences are devastating to the Christian. It implies that one can be saved while continuing in sin. Consequently, those who are faithful to the Lord must oppose this doctrine with every ounce of their being.

SARA
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I agree generally.
There are many folks that will be justified/sanctified who embrace imputed righteousness. The reason for this is that they believe the process of sanctification involves works and they will walk that path. The fact that they thought they were justified by faith alone will merely be an error.
As protestant ministers compete for followers some teach “easy believism” because it sounds good. These are the folks who are in danger from their “imputed righteousness” mistake.

Charity, TOm
 
****. Matthew5 “12”: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. ****

Heaven is a reward from God
 
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majick275:
Is there not an LDS equivalent to purgatory where the “exalted” pay the penalty for their sins? (this in addition to the “spirit prison” where saved but not exalted go to await judgement and subsequent entry into “lesser kingdoms”)
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At the end of the day, I believe that Purgatory and Spirit Prison are quite similar.

As I have always understood the term Spirit Prison it really means two things (I am pretty sure I heard the term Spirit Prison used in both of the below meanings and decided that this must be what is being taught, but I am not sure if I am correct or if there is some place I could lean upon to further define this. Anyway it is what I believe).

Within Spirit Prison(1) there is Paradise and Spirit Prison(2). Those who are prepared to the extent that they can aid in preparing others (this would generally be understood as LDS who have good understanding and completed ordinances, but I think it really is more broad than this) will be in Paradise and others will be in Spirit Prison(2) and will be taught by the folks from Paradise. All folks in Spirit Prison(1) are growing, learning, and even suffering from the separation of their body and spirit.

One of my favorite non-LDS sayings that I find some applicability with respect to Spirit Prison(1), “Heaven and Hell are the same place. For those that “get it” it is heaven, for the rest, it is Hell.”

Charity, TOm
 
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sara888:
I was suggesting I do not profess Imputed Rightousness as you do. I am not claiming works save us , Faith does, but you still fail to define what real FAITH in Christ means to a Christian, I do not see seperation of Faith and works as they are one.

Faith saves us, but we are judged according to this Faith and how we lived or obeyed Christ commands.So to suggest that as a Catholic I feel I merit Heaven is absurd. First of all if I died today I would not go to Heaven since nothing Holy and unclean may enter. I would go to purgatory with Gods Mercy. Heaven is a reward according to the bible in the gospels

I am glad you saw where I tried to correct myself. I do in fact reject “Imputed Rightousness” as it has come to be defined in the “Imputed vs. Infused debate.”

In the above I see you linking Faith and Works such that we can say we are saved by “Formed Faith alone.” I think this is fine, but I generally try to preserve the distinction between faith and works.

Have you read my post 20 & 21. This is my position and I think it is quite faithful to the definition of “infused righteousness” and the elaboration of Catholic thought in general.

Charity, TOm
 
Here’s my take on the issue of faith and works, from a Catholic point of view:
The Church teaches that justification is by grace through faith and works. Sola fide (faith alone) is rejected by the Church as heresy, but sola gracia (grace alone) is upheld as sound teaching. We must realize that neither faith nor works can save us. All the faith in the world would be nothing, without grace. Likewise, all the works under the sun would be, as you said in the other thread, like filthy rags without grace. This is where the distinction must be made. Both faith and works are worthless if they do not flow from God’s grace. Our salvation is only made possible because Christ took our eternal penalty on the tree at Calvary; however, this perfect work of Christ must be applied to each of us. God has given us freewill, so we must accept this gift and co-operate with him. Not just once (the moment you accept Christ), but all through our lives. Catholics can say that we merit salvation, but only in a secondary and derivative sense. The grace that Christ gives us leads to faith. This grace-empowered faith leads to works. The two go hand in hand. Our faith and works become our way of co-operating with God’s plan for our salvation, and become worthy of merit before God because Christ’s merit is applied to us through his grace. Do you understand what I am saying? The faith and works in and of themselves are nothing, but when they flow from the grace Christ has given us, they become creditable.

One thing that really hit home for me was the realization that even the Evangelical position requires human effort to obtain salvation. If we are to say that there is nothing we can do to be saved, then logically, all human beings should be saved automatically…as Christ’s grace would be universally applied; however, we know that this is not the case. Even in the Evangelical view, one must make an conscious act of the will, exert a mental effort, to decide to accept Christ and to repent of one’s sins. In a sense, this is a work, as it is an act of the will, and takes effort on our part. But this is only made possible by grace in the first place (remember, the Father must draw us to His Son before we can accept Him), so we can not take credit for it, even though our effort was involved. So once you realize that even the Evangelical view requires human effort, it falls into place (at least for me) that works, those that are the fruit of the grace God has given us, can also play a role in our part in salvation.

Do you understand what I am saying? If you are to say that salvation involves no effort on our part, then even personal repentance should be unnecessary. Every step of the way, we must choose to continue to co-operate with God, or to reject His grace. We should not be terrified, however, for we trust that God will always provide us with the grace necessary to persevere. I will sending you another PM with some Scripture passages that, in my opinion, demonstrate this connection between justification and works.

In Christ with love,
Tyler
 
“When you say, “So it is not good works that save you but faith in Christ,” you do not sound Catholic to me. This does not mean that you do not place works with faith in some way.”

Tom I am Catholic to the very core. I Place good works with faith in Christ in all ways. What saved the thief on the cross? I place all good works with Christ, and when you have faith in Christ good works will always come foreword, not in order to be saved or to receive something, but rather because you have come to love Christ. You are eager to do His good works because of your love of God. We are saved because of the gift given, it’s that simple. But as a Catholic I do know that one can reject this free gift by turning away, by following your own path to glory, for your own gain other than Gods. How can one who has faith in Christ, who has hope in Christ not do good works? To me this would be impossible. Except for a thief on the Cross. This shows all of us Cleary that it is not what we do, or how often we do it that saves us. The first can be last and the last can be first. It’s all about Gods mercy for us sinners.
 
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majick275:
Thus we see that those LDS who have received the sealing ordinance in the Temple have an assurance that unless they commit murder then they still get their exaltation.
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This part of your post is incorrect and was addressed by McConkie in his famous “Seven Deadly Heresies” talk in 1980.
**Heresy three: There are those who say that temple marriage assures us of an eventual exaltation. Some have supposed that couples married in the temple who commit all manner of sin, and who then pay the penalty, will gain their exaltation eventually. **

Baptism is a gate; celestial marriage is a gate. When we get on the paths of which I speak, we are then obligated to keep the commandments.

…you will learn that all of the promises given [in the temple] are conditioned upon subsequent compliance with all of the terms and conditions of that order of matrimony.
*
 
*“Baptism is a gate; celestial marriage is a gate. When we get on the paths of which I speak, we are then obligated to keep the commandments.”

I would like to ask this question: Who here at this forum, or anyone who may be just taking a peek has ever followed the Ten Commandments? Or is following the Ten Commandments? Do you know of anyone living or passed on who has been able to do this,besides Christ? It is my sense of things that I could never do that myself, that the ten commandments are given to show us that we can not follow them. Break one and you break them all. Gossip of any kind, hate of any kind, lying just once, looking at another with any kind of lust, wanting what another has, making anyhting other than God your god, like money, status, sugar, food, etc…

So if we can not follow them, how then do we follow them? For me I follow Christ who is the Ten Commandments, this is how I follow them. I follow them with my confessions until I die. I lay it all out on the line. I have become ok with this. I am with others who have become ok with this. You learn to hold the success along with the failures. The Mass keeps these things in their proper perspective. Learn that you could never follow them, then follow Christ, it’s better than winning a billion dollar Lottery.
 
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Casen:
This part of your post is incorrect and was addressed by McConkie in his famous “Seven Deadly Heresies” talk in 1980.
**Heresy three: There are those who say that temple marriage assures us of an eventual exaltation. Some have supposed that couples married in the temple who commit all manner of sin, and who then pay the penalty, will gain their exaltation eventually. ***

Baptism is a gate; celestial marriage is a gate. When we get on the paths of which I speak, we are then obligated to keep the commandments.

…you will learn that all of the promises given [in the temple] are conditioned upon subsequent compliance with all of the terms and conditions of that order of matrimony.
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Yet we have seen time and time again that Mconkie’s doctrinal positions are “questionable” in the minds of the LDS themselves. He has had to change his book “Mormon Doctrine” multiple times when his positions were “corrected” by LDS prophets. After the 1978 revelation he himself said to disregard everyhting he had previously stated on that subject.

The “proof” of my assertion here is that what I claimed is still in the standard works of the LDS church. Canonized scripture vs. repeatedly incorrect Apostle = I still maintain my original position on this.
 
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