The song states that grace appears the hour the person first believed. We believe that grace comes at the moment of Baptism.
But that’s not what it says. It describes how grace appeared. If I was to say that “You appear intelligent.”, I’m not claiming that you materialized out of thin air, I’m describing how you look. Similarly, Amazing Grace is using “appear” in the sense of the way something is perceived. The perception of grace is what has changed dramatically, not its presence. I think that’s pretty clear from the structure of the song.
You are arguing against a position that I’m not holding. IF Amazing Grace contradicts Catholic teaching, it is not suitable for Mass. I agree with that, and you don’t need to restate that like I do. My argument is that it does not contradict Catholic teaching.
However, the song does contradict Catholic teaching. If the article noted in the OP does not convince you of that, I do not know what will. The song is not using the word “appear” in the sense that you are claiming it is. It is stating that grace kicks in the moment a person believes. It is a totally false reading of St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans and fails to take into account the Church’s teachings. Just because it is popular with the Protestants does not make it fit for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Whatever we use at Mass needs to be consistent with the doctrine, theology and liturgy of the Church.
It doesn’t say grace appeared at the moment of belief, just that grace had the appearance of being precious at that time.
Here is Fr. Ward’s argument regarding the song’s notion of grace:
Thus, it does conflict with the Church’s teaching of actual grace and sanctifying grace. We already have the grace, but, it may take a lot longer in some of us for the seeds of that grace to germinate and bear fruit.
True.
But, you are thinking from a former Baptist’s perspective and not necessarily the Church’s. Here is what Fr. Ward said in the article:
As I said, rather than use flawed theology in the music we use at the Mass, we should instead use hymns that are genuinely in line with Church teaching.
…is restate your position without putting forward any supporting evidence. You’ve done nothing to show that “appear” in the sense of “suddenly materializes” is the more likely definition. In fact, based on the rest on the lyrics, because the rest of that verse describes how faith caused his conversion. Now how is it possible for a man who believes that grace doesn’t appear until after conversion, to describe the way in which grace caused it?
Again, there is no need to restate your conclusion every time you post the next round of the debate. I understand this part, but I dispute that it fits Amazing Grace.
I understand and I read the article. I am sure Fr. Ward’s presentation of the Church’s view of grace is accurate and I understand the point. However, his representation of the words of this song is not accurate. I recommend anyone to that is intrigued enough to waste time, take pen to paper and diagram the second verse. It simply does not say grace appears concurrent with belief. Failing that, take it to a grammatical expert you may know without an opinion of this song.
'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
That is the second most common complaint against this song. In Mass, we have no problem reading from Romans 8:
We do not consider St. Paul inappropriate, even though this reading on cursory look seems to support OSAS. We can know from other writings of Paul his teaching on the subject of falling away in sin. In this passage it is the unfailingly love of God that is being lauded. In the context of this love Paul can write that even future things will not separate us from the love of God. This could (and has) mislead when not properly taught or viewed in context.
But, we do not read St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans in a vaccuum, as most Protestants probably do who hold true to the OSAS. Salvation is an already, but, not yet, concept, as Pope Benedict has mentioned in many of his writings. OSAS does not factor in the free will of man. Sure, grace is there, but, as St. Augustine once said, “the God who made you without your cooperation cannot save you without it.” It’s not just a matter of Jesus doing all the work. We have to also want it and do our part. Remember, St. Paul also says that he makes up in his body “what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.”
The song is my (musical) hairshirt. AG and the other feel-good music offered during my parish Mass is part of the reason I skip that service to attend a Tridentine Mass whenever possible. Is it too much to ask to have liturgical music that reinforces Catholicism?… I like Amazing Grace; in fact, I spray it on twice a week since that is one of my favorite Philosophy fragrances.
Dear friend in Christ,
Except that that use of appears is not common to the time of the author.
I trust that you are correct, but I’d like to read more about that - did I miss a source for this claim earlier in the thread, or can you point me to one elsewhere?
Regardless of which interpretation you go with, precious is an adverb (or maybe a subject complement). It’s easy to see how something could look precious. I’m not sure I understand how something can arrive or show up preciously.