Is the Protestant worship of God the same as Catholic veneration of Mary?

[TimothyH]

A provocative title perhaps, but my intent is far from provocation. I hope for an intellectual dialog. Please try to refrain from quips or knee-jerk comments.

Christ’s sacrifice of himself - God the Son - on the cross to God the Father, is and was the perfect act of worship ever to take place. At the heart of Catholic worship is the Eucharist, and since the Eucharist is Jesus Christ, Eucharistic worship is sacrificial worship, a re-presentation of Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity, given up on the cross, to God the Almighty Father. Since the Eucharist is Jesus Christ, it is the continuation of that perfect act of worship in time and space.

Protestantism and non-demoninational Evangelicalsm does not have Eucharistic worship - the re-presentation of Christ’s perfect sacrifice to God. So how does their worship differ from prayer or other types of Catholic veneration/devotion to Mary or the Saints?

Catholics sing to Mary. Non-Catholics sing to God.
Catholics pray to Mary. Non-Catholics pray to God.
Catholics love Mary. Non-Catholics love God.
Catholics read the Bible and try to obey God’s commandments. Non-Catholics read the Bible and try obey God’s commandments.

I don’t mean to over simplify. Please don’t take my comments as presumption about how pleasing anyone’s soul is to God. Lord knows that I’m right up there with Saul as the greatest of sinners

My question is, if non-Catholic worship lacks the Eucharistic, sacrificial element, how is is any different from veneration? Is the only difference between veneration and worship an understanding that Mary is a creature and God is the creator? Or is worship something more than praying, singing, feelings of love and thanksgiving and contrition, and obedience? Isn’t Protestant worship of God the same as Catholic veneration of Mary, minus the need to understand the difference between creator and creature? Or is there a relative gradation of worship? Does the Bible give us clues?

It is something I have pondered for a while

-Tim-

 

[Bilbo_Baggins_1]

I feel like I might be missing the point of your question, so feel free to redirect me, but are you arguing that if Catholics shouldn’t worship Mary then Protestants shouldn’t venerate God (e.g. God can’t be venerated as well as worshipped and adored)?

 

[Bballer32]

See we pary and stuff to Mary because SHE GAVE BIRTH to the SON OF GOD. Now that holds a strong title. Protestants worship and sing and pray to God just as we do. The problem is: They don’t get the full feeling of it. Imagine it like a big feast. Let’s say there was a group of Catholics and a group of Protestants. Everyone is told to come eat (symbolic for Mass). Well not everyone hears everything. The protestants and Catholics know that they are gonna eat. But! Catholics heard the calling and got up and ate (symbolic for Eurcharist). The protestants kept talking about their own ideas and couldn’t hear the calling. So they presume that they are gonna eat eventually, but are never gonna eat unless they notice it is time to eat. (symbolic for convert).

Now that may seem confusing but if you read it a few times and try to picture it, you should get the idea. Hopefully this helps a bit.

 

[JonNC]

=TimothyH;8500995]A provocative title perhaps, but my intent is far from provocation. I hope for an intellectual dialog. Please try to refrain from quips or knee-jerk comments.

I’ll try.

Christ’s sacrifice of himself - God the Son - on the cross to God the Father, is and was the perfect act of worship ever to take place. At the heart of Catholic worship is the Eucharist, and since the Eucharist is Jesus Christ, Eucharistic worship is sacrificial worship, a re-presentation of Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity, given up on the cross, to God the Almighty Father. Since the Eucharist is Jesus Christ, it is the continuation of that perfect act of worship in time and space.

OK, I might express it somewhat differently, but I see what you’re saying.

Protestantism and non-demoninational Evangelicalsm does not have Eucharistic worship - the re-presentation of Christ’s perfect sacrifice to God. So how does their worship differ from prayer or other types of Catholic veneration/devotion to Mary or the Saints?

Perhaps you might explain further Eucharistic worship.

Catholics sing to Mary. Non-Catholics sing to God.
Catholics pray to Mary. Non-Catholics pray to God.

Stop here. When Catholics pray to the Blessed Virgin, it isn’t the same as prayer to God by either. Invocation is not prayer in the same sense as prayer to God. Invocation is simply a request for intercession with God, just as we ask others to pray for intercession by fellow parishioners.

Catholics love Mary. Non-Catholics love God.

Non-Catholics love Mary, and Catholics love God. Even these types of love are different.

Catholics read the Bible and try to obey God’s commandments. Non-Catholics read the Bible and try obey God’s commandments.

Agreed.

I don’t mean to over simplify. Please don’t take my comments as presumption about how pleasing anyone’s soul is to God. Lord knows that I’m right up there with Saul as the greatest of sinners

My question is, if non-Catholic worship lacks the Eucharistic, sacrificial element, how is is any different from veneration? Is the only difference between veneration and worship an understanding that Mary is a creature and God is the creator? Or is worship something more than praying, singing, feelings of love and thanksgiving and contrition, and obedience? Isn’t Protestant worship of God the same as Catholic veneration of Mary, minus the need to understand the difference between creator and creature? Or is there a relative gradation of worship? Does the Bible give us clues?

As a Lutheran our piety regarding the veneration of the Blessed Virgin, praise to God for her act of obedience and faithfulness may be different than Catholic veneration, but it isn’t not-veneration.
All that said, unless you are saying that Catholic veneration of Mary is latria, which it isn’t, the comparison breaks down. While adoration of the Eucharist, and worship of said is important, it is not the only act of worship. We worship Him in confession, Baptism, hymns of praise, and the reading of the word.

Jon

 

[Robert_in_SD]

My question is, if non-Catholic worship lacks the Eucharistic, sacrificial element, how is is any different from veneration? Is the only difference between veneration and worship an understanding that Mary is a creature and God is the creator? Or is worship something more than praying, singing, feelings of love and thanksgiving and contrition, and obedience? Isn’t Protestant worship of God the same as Catholic veneration of Mary, minus the need to understand the difference between creator and creature? Or is there a relative gradation of worship? Does the Bible give us clues? It is something I have pondered for a while
-Tim-

Hi Tim;

I think that the CCC makes the point that adoration and veneration are not merely quantitatively different, but differ qualitatively:

971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

515 Lk 1:48; Paul VI, MC 56.
516 LG 66.
517 Cf. Paul VI, MC 42; SC 103.

I do not think it fair to say that because protestants do not have the eucharist as part of the worship ceremony, that the have no ability to worship God. But it has been my experience that many non-Catholic Christians have a difficult time grasping the qualitative distinction between the two acts. Just my two cents.

Peace,
Robert

 

[SonCatcher]

TimothyH,

I think this particular train of thought is disparaging toward our Protestant brethren. It probably should have been derailed long ago. Protestants indeed give Latria worship to God in the same way we do (even if they don’t use the term). By comparing Latria to Dulia, you fall into the same trap as the Protestant who vilifies Catholics for “worshiping” Mary and the Saints.

 

[TimothyH]

TimothyH,

I think this particular train of thought is disparaging toward our Protestant brethren. It probably should have been derailed long ago. Protestants indeed give Latria worship to God in the same way we do (even if they don’t use the term). By comparing Latria to Dulia, you fall into the same trap as the Protestant who vilifies Catholics for “worshiping” Mary and the Saints.

I’m sorry you see it that way. My original post had a statement about, given that I am a sinner, my not judging how pleasing anyon’s soul is to God.

Is a question I have thought about for some time however - the value of non-Eucharistic worship vs Eucharistic worship - and if worship without the sacrifice of Christ, made present for us on the altar, is not of infinitely more benefit to the worshipper and infitnitely more pleasing to God than is any form of worship without that sacrifice.

I guess what I am asking is, what is worship?

-Tim-

 

[SteveVH]

A provocative title perhaps, but my intent is far from provocation. I hope for an intellectual dialog. Please try to refrain from quips or knee-jerk comments.

Christ’s sacrifice of himself - God the Son - on the cross to God the Father, is and was the perfect act of worship ever to take place. At the heart of Catholic worship is the Eucharist, and since the Eucharist is Jesus Christ, Eucharistic worship is sacrificial worship, a re-presentation of Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity, given up on the cross, to God the Almighty Father. Since the Eucharist is Jesus Christ, it is the continuation of that perfect act of worship in time and space.

Protestantism and non-demoninational Evangelicalsm does not have Eucharistic worship - the re-presentation of Christ’s perfect sacrifice to God. So how does their worship differ from prayer or other types of Catholic veneration/devotion to Mary or the Saints?

Catholics sing to Mary. Non-Catholics sing to God.
Catholics pray to Mary. Non-Catholics pray to God.
Catholics love Mary. Non-Catholics love God.
Catholics read the Bible and try to obey God’s commandments. Non-Catholics read the Bible and try obey God’s commandments.

I don’t mean to over simplify. Please don’t take my comments as presumption about how pleasing anyone’s soul is to God. Lord knows that I’m right up there with Saul as the greatest of sinners

My question is, if non-Catholic worship lacks the Eucharistic, sacrificial element, how is is any different from veneration? Is the only difference between veneration and worship an understanding that Mary is a creature and God is the creator? Or is worship something more than praying, singing, feelings of love and thanksgiving and contrition, and obedience? Isn’t Protestant worship of God the same as Catholic veneration of Mary, minus the need to understand the difference between creator and creature? Or is there a relative gradation of worship? Does the Bible give us clues?

It is something I have pondered for a while

-Tim-

I would agree with you to the extent that most Protestant faiths have a different idea of what entails “worship” than do Catholics. In most denominations, prayer is reserved for God alone, so the fact that a Catholic might pray to Mary or any other saint, for them means that we are therefore worshiping them. They have never experienced falling on their knees and worshiping Christ in the Eucharist and therefore have no comparison. It is understandable, to me at least, that they might see it this way without having it explained from a Cathoic view.

 

[SonCatcher]

I’m sorry you see it that way. My original post had a statement about, given that I am a sinner, my not judging how pleasing anyon’s soul is to God.

Is a question I have thought about for some time however - the value of non-Eucharistic worship vs Eucharistic worship - and if worship without the sacrifice of Christ, made present for us on the altar, is not of infinitely more benefit to the worshipper and infitnitely more pleasing to God than is any form of worship without that sacrifice.

I guess what I am asking is, what is worship?

-Tim-

The fact that Protestant worship is non-Eucharistic does not make Christ’s sacrifice absent to them. It limits their participation to spiritual participation but does nothing to limit God’s ability to confer grace upon them if they are disposed to receive it.

 

[DadDave]

See we pary and stuff to Mary because SHE GAVE BIRTH to the SON OF GOD. Now that holds a strong title. Protestants worship and sing and pray to God just as we do. The problem is: They don’t get the full feeling of it. Imagine it like a big feast. Let’s say there was a group of Catholics and a group of Protestants. Everyone is told to come eat (symbolic for Mass). Well not everyone hears everything. The protestants and Catholics know that they are gonna eat. But! Catholics heard the calling and got up and ate (symbolic for Eurcharist). The protestants kept talking about their own ideas and couldn’t hear the calling. So they presume that they are gonna eat eventually, but are never gonna eat unless they notice it is time to eat. (symbolic for convert).

Now that may seem confusing but if you read it a few times and try to picture it, you should get the idea. Hopefully this helps a bit.

I think making blanket statements that Protestants “don’t get the full feeling” of worship is rather disparaging. If anything, they are often accused having too much “feeling” and no substance.
Just because they don’t pray to Mary doesn’t mean they are missing anything! If that’s so then Catholics are lacking in their worship because Orthodox reference Mary much more than Catholics do during the liturgy. Note that I am not calling Orthodox = Protestant.
Protestants may be praying the “Our Father” or “Jesus Prayer” or some other prayer. There’s nothing in the CCC that says one HAS to pray to Mary.

 

[DadDave]

As referenced above “pray” has different meanings.
Catholics pray as in ask Mary and the Saints to go to Christ and ask Him to help us.

 

[SteveVH]

I think making blanket statements that Protestants “don’t get the full feeling” of worship is rather disparaging. If anything, they are often accused having too much “feeling” and no substance.
Just because they don’t pray to Mary doesn’t mean they are missing anything! If that’s so then Catholics are lacking in their worship because Orthodox reference Mary much more than Catholics do during the liturgy. Note that I am not calling Orthodox = Protestant.
Protestants may be praying the “Our Father” or “Jesus Prayer” or some other prayer. There’s nothing in the CCC that says one HAS to pray to Mary.

But there is something in the CCC that speaks of the “Communion of Saints” and of the efficacy of us praying for one another. Nowhere in the Bible do we hear the term “Trinity” either, but the doctrine is certainly scriptural.

I would agree that God does not refuse his grace to anyone who sincerely seeks him. But one would not receive the fulness of grace that one receives in the Eucharist simply by praying the “Our Father” and singing praise and worship songs. In like manner, they are also missing out by not taking advantage of the prayers of the saints in heaven, so I would not go so far as to say “Just because they don’t pray to Mary doesn’t mean they are missing anything!” They are missing something; the prayers of the saints, which help us immensely in our journey of faith.

 

[PJM]

=TimothyH;8500995]A provocative title perhaps, but my intent is far from provocation. I hope for an intellectual dialog. Please try to refrain from quips or knee-jerk comments.

Christ’s sacrifice of himself - God the Son - on the cross to God the Father, is and was the perfect act of worship ever to take place. At the heart of Catholic worship is the Eucharist, and since the Eucharist is Jesus Christ, Eucharistic worship is sacrificial worship, a re-presentation of Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity, given up on the cross, to God the Almighty Father. Since the Eucharist is Jesus Christ, it is the continuation of that perfect act of worship in time and space.

Protestantism and non-demoninational Evangelicalsm does not have Eucharistic worship - the re-presentation of Christ’s perfect sacrifice to God. So how does their worship differ from prayer or other types of Catholic veneration/devotion to Mary or the Saints?

Catholics sing to Mary. Non-Catholics sing to God.
Catholics pray to Mary. Non-Catholics pray to God.
Catholics love Mary. Non-Catholics love God.
Catholics read the Bible and try to obey God’s commandments. Non-Catholics read the Bible and try obey God’s commandments.

I don’t mean to over simplify. Please don’t take my comments as presumption about how pleasing anyone’s soul is to God. Lord knows that I’m right up there with Saul as the greatest of sinners

My question is, if non-Catholic worship lacks the Eucharistic, sacrificial element, how is is any different from veneration? Is the only difference between veneration and worship an understanding that Mary is a creature and God is the creator? Or is worship something more than praying, singing, feelings of love and thanksgiving and contrition, and obedience? Isn’t Protestant worship of God the same as Catholic veneration of Mary, minus the need to understand the difference between creator and creature? Or is there a relative gradation of worship? Does the Bible give us clues?

It is something I have pondered for a while

-Tim-

Hi Tim,

I suspect the issue is both more complex and more profound than one first imagines.

One must factor in how we Catholics are viewed as “worshiping” Mary and by many placing Mary on the same level as Christ. Of course we Catholic KNOW neither position is true.

God we WORSHIP
Mary we praise, and reverence as the Mother of God and as a Saint being in God presence. It is WE KNOW far more accurate to a right understanding of our beliefs and practices to think of our prayers, which we term and classify as ‘Intercessory” as praying THROUGH Many and the saints to God; rather than “too” even though that is also correct.

The effect of intercessory prayer is that Mary and the Saints ADD there own petitions on-top of ours and personally present to God on our behalf; making them far more effective.

Addressing your thoughts. Protestants are still praying too God; as do we. And while they lack sacramental graces that flow freely to and for us; they nevertheless earn merits by prayer to God just as we do.

Certain of our prayers are more efficacious [effective and grace-filled], as are the Mass, Stations of the Cross and the Rosary; their prayers remain fruitful and beneficial. So there is some merit to your position; but I fear it may not be very clearly defined.

Even more significant in my mind; is the effect and status of ones soul when praying. Because Catholics can KNOW with certitude that out Confessed sins ARE actually and really forgiven through the very precise COMMAND and instruction of Jesus Himself [John 20:21-23], while so many non-Catholics rely on myths, and bogus promises of forgiveness NOT approved, accepted or desired by God; and therefore MAY not be in the state of grace necessary to ones prayers effective. This seems to me to be a much more significant issue in comparing the effectiveness of prayer between Catholics and others.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[TimothyH]

Stop here. When Catholics pray to the Blessed Virgin, it isn’t the same as prayer to God by either. Invocation is not prayer in the same sense as prayer to God. Invocation is simply a request for intercession with God, just as we ask others to pray for intercession by fellow parishioners.

As I have time to read these responses slowly and reflect on them as they deserve to be reflected upon, I think there is great wisdom in this reply.

As a Catholic, I’m not sure the distinction between interecessory prayer to saints and prayer to God is not somehow blurred with regards to Mary, as she is singluar among all creatures, and given a great role to play in our salvation as Mediatrix of All Grace. The interncession of Mary is an order of magnitude more efficacious than the intercession of all saints combined (hence the term hyperdulia).

Mary’s role in our salvation, title as Mediatrix of All Grace, etc., is a point of great contention among Catholics, without having to drag Lutheran’s into the discussion. invocation We can argue endlessly about this this and I don’t want this thread to turn into that argument, though it might be unavoidable.

Nevertheless, I find your simple comment provocative, in a good way.

Hi Tim,

I suspect the issue is both more complex and more profound than one first imagines.

Addressing your thoughts. Protestants are still praying too God; as do we. And while they lack sacramental graces that flow freely to and for us; they nevertheless earn merits by prayer to God just as we do.

Certain of our prayers are more efficacious [effective and grace-filled], as are the Mass, Stations of the Cross and the Rosary; their prayers remain fruitful and beneficial. So there is some merit to your position; but I fear it may not be very clearly defined.

Even more significant in my mind; is the effect and status of ones soul when praying. Because Catholics can KNOW with certitude that out Confessed sins ARE actually and really forgiven through the very precise COMMAND and instruction of Jesus Himself [John 20:21-23], while so many non-Catholics rely on myths, and bogus promises of forgiveness NOT approved, accepted or desired by God; and therefore MAY not be in the state of grace necessary to ones prayers effective. This seems to me to be a much more significant issue in comparing the effectiveness of prayer between Catholics and others.

God Bless,
Pat

Pat, thank you for your lucid and thought filled comments. Thank you ALL for your throught provoking, honest opinions.

More complex, yes, surely. I have throught about this much. You are correct in your observation that my position is not clearly defined. Clarity is the whole motivation behind my question.

Regarding the status of one’s soul when praying, and when worshipping, do you think the sword cuts both ways? Do you think Catholics, who ought to know better, are held to a higher standard? Or am I being pharasitical?

Eucharistic worship - Christ’s perfect oblation on the cross made present in time and space and re-presented to God the Father - is clearly the most efficacious worship, but we must be properly disposed. So would a Catholic not properly disposed be better off at non-Catholic worship? Let’s say he didn’t believe in the real presence. Would he be better off taking Methodist communion?

I think about these things and then the “Council of Trent in me” rears its head, gnashes it’s teeth, and cries out to God, “Heretics!” I pass seven closed non-Catholic churches on my way to a weeknight Mass and it makes me bristle with indignation that they are shuddered, dark, not a soul present.

I hope these things make sense. Please keep commenting.

-Tim-

 

[DadDave]

" The interncession of Mary is an order of magnitude more efficacious than the intercession of all saints combined (hence the term hyperdulia).

Mary’s role in our salvation, title as Mediatrix of All Grace, etc."

So if Mary is an order of magnitude greater than why pray to other saints at all? And for that matter Jesus is infinitely greater than Mary so why not pray to Jesus?
.

 

[TimothyH]

So if Mary is an order of magnitude greater than why pray to other saints at all? And for that matter Jesus is infinitely greater than Mary so why not pray to Jesus?
.

More the merrier?

There are many, many threads about praying to Saints vs. Mary vs. Jesus, Mediatrix of All Grace, do we have to go through Mary, some so heated that at least one person, the OP, got banned.

My comments were in the context of the Catholic doctrine of hyperdulua compared to non-Catholic worship. I’m not going to engage the topic of why Mary vs Jesus.

-Tim-

 

[Marybeloved]

I agree that objectively, absent Eucharistic worship, the veneration of Our Lady and the Saints does not “appear” to be different from our prayer to God, but in reality it cannot be the same. I think to myself what state of mind I’m in when addressing in prayer (non-Eucharistic) the Blessed Trinity, Christ, Our Lady, St. Joseph, My guardian angel, and the other Saints, and it’s all very, very, very different!

-During daily prayer/meditation, we are coming to commune with God our creator, the Blessed Trinity- We start by an act of the presence of God- Reminding ourselves in whose presence we are, becoming aware that we are literally before God- The attitude of my heart is a holy fear- I know I’m communing with THE one- The forever, the Absolute- He has absolute rights over me, he’s granting my very existence as I speak. All I am and all I have he can take away in an instant, I owe myself and all in an absolute way to the one I’m addressing, he has all power over me and it’s from him that mercy, forgiveness, goodness, everything comes- My attitude or my orientation is of one who is nothing before one who is absolute and everything- It’s a prostration of mind and will (or the intention thereof)- This “prayer” is worship- latria.

-When I address our Lord, Jesus Christ who is God-man, it’s a combination of the worship described above and the love of friendship, and the loyalty owed to a master or to a King- I have the intention of giving complete affection to him and a sense of owing perfect loyalty to one that is King or Master, whose lead I must follow, whom I obey, who has ransomed me or paid a perfect dowry for me that makes me his- perfectly. I know I belong to him by right- and I am to prefer no other master above or with him.

-When I address our Lady, like before the meditation/mental prayer to God, and as I go to receive communion, I ask her to “help me please him”, I have confidence that she’s with me and is very powerful in her help, because she is with her God and her son the King whom she loves perfectly! It’s like appearing before Queen Esther in order to have favor before the King’s own Court where all the goods come- You know you are in seriously powerful company, but this “power” is powerful only because of its placement with the ultimate power. There’s always accompanying the prayer to her, the sense that I and the one I address have one master and Lord whom she loves so much better than I. There’s no “latria”- only a combination of great love and respect and confidence in her help, a reverence before a Queen-mother.

-Addressing the Saints and angels is like addressing friends or brothers (sometimes “father” like St. Joseph)- but very powerful ones- I speak to them like I speak to a very highly respected priest, or revered bishop, or how you would address a living saint (or the Pope). “Dear St. Therese of Lisieux, please send me a flower from heaven, teach me sanctity, show me the simple road to take, teach me real love, help me with this and that” etc etc. This is most clear when speaking to our Guardian Angel whom we ask for all sorts of helps and advice- The main sentiment is: Companions on the road-Like many many holy Gandalfs for Frodo.

So, even though superficially, you may say its all the same unless it’s Eucharistic- It’s really very, very different. I know worship/adoration/latria and the kind of submission and self-surrender I give to the Blessed Trinity and our Lord, when I see/do it and the deep affection I offer to Our Lord himself also, as well as Our Lady, and the Saints that we call reverence. It’s not just an external matter of saying “when it’s the Eucharist, it’s worship, but when it’s prayer, it’s reverence” The prayer is not the same.

 

[A_Catholic]

I would agree with you to the extent that most Protestant faiths have a different idea of what entails “worship” than do Catholics. In most denominations, prayer is reserved for God alone, so the fact that a Catholic might pray to Mary or any other saint, for them means that we are therefore worshiping them. They have never experienced falling on their knees and worshiping Christ in the Eucharist and therefore have no comparison. It is understandable, to me at least, that they might see it this way without having it explained from a Cathoic view.

I never thought of it this way, but I think you’ve hit it exactly. The idea of worship is profoundly different between Cathlics and Protestants, for a few different reasons. As you say, they don’t have the Eucharist - God with us. They can’t even begin to understand what that means. So the way we pray to Mary and the saints is how they pray to God and look at it as worship. They don’t understand in the fullest sense what it means to literally fall on your knees before your Creator. Because they don’t have the Mass, they never get any real glimpse of heaven, and can’t understand where we are coming from.

I think in many ways they see God as their “buddy” in the same way we see Mary and the saints. They also have no concept of “communion of the saints.” They think when someone is dead, that’s it. No more contact. They don’t know anything about the angels and praying to them. Their “founding fathers” such as Luther and Calvin took so much away from them, leaving them impoverished spiritually.

Thank you for helping me see this so much more clearly.

 

[JonNC]

=A Catholic;8507470]I never thought of it this way, but I think you’ve hit it exactly. The idea of worship is profoundly different between Cathlics and Protestants, for a few different reasons. As you say, they don’t have the Eucharist - God with us. They can’t even begin to understand what that means.

Who says we don;t have the Eucharist? Find a Lutheran document that says such a thing.

So the way we pray to Mary and the saints is how they pray to God and look at it as worship.

So, when we pray the Our Father/Lord’s Prayer, you think we consider it dulia/ hyperdulia.
Interesting. You, therefore, think we are asking God to intercede with prayer for us - to God? YOu must be saying this, because I know you don’t go to confession and ask the saints and the Blessed Virgin to forgive your sins, since you know only God can do that.

They don’t understand in the fullest sense what it means to literally fall on your knees before your Creator. Because they don’t have the Mass, they never get any real glimpse of heaven, and can’t understand where we are coming from.

I’m amazed at this perception.

I think in many ways they see God as their “buddy” in the same way we see Mary and the saints.

Really?

They also have no concept of “communion of the saints.” They think when someone is dead, that’s it. No more contact.

So, to you, the only “contact” we have with the communion of saints is through invocation?

They don’t know anything about the angels and praying to them. Their “founding fathers” such as Luther and Calvin took so much away from them, leaving them impoverished spiritually.

This is just factually inaccurate. Lutherans recognize that the whole company of Heaven, angels and archangels, and all His saints, pray for us, His Church Militant, unceasingly.

Thank you for helping me see this so much more clearly.

I think your perception of at least the Lutheran communion, insomuch as we are considered protestant, is anything but clear.

Jon

 

[SonCatcher]

Who says we don;t have the Eucharist? Find a Lutheran document that says such a thing.

So, when we pray the Our Father/Lord’s Prayer, you think we consider it dulia/ hyperdulia.
Interesting. You, therefore, think we are asking God to intercede with prayer for us - to God? YOu must be saying this, because I know you don’t go to confession and ask the saints and the Blessed Virgin to forgive your sins, since you know only God can do that.

I’m amazed at this perception.

Really?

So, to you, the only “contact” we have with the communion of saints is through invocation?

This is just factually inaccurate. Lutherans recognize that the whole company of Heaven, angels and archangels, and all His saints, pray for us, His Church Militant, unceasingly.

I think your perception of at least the Lutheran communion, insomuch as we are considered protestant, is anything but clear.

Jon

I think the OP and those who agree were mainly targeting the style of worship favored by Baptists, non-denominationalists and similar.

That said, I agree with you that they are making an unfair comparison.