Is the Protestant worship of God the same as Catholic veneration of Mary?

[BigFellaMick]

The fact that Protestant worship is non-Eucharistic does not make Christ’s sacrifice absent to them. It limits their participation to spiritual participation but does nothing to limit God’s ability to confer grace upon them if they are disposed to receive it.

I’d add to that and point out that without confession they would have a hard time being able to spiritually participate, since many are in a grave state of sin (not because they don’t confess to a Priest) but because many protestants and non denominationals as well all know believe in once saved forever saved. I’m not making a debate about that stance but just that for many with that mindset, when they commit a sin its already forgiven by Christ. Feeling bad about a sin you’ve committed isn’t enough for God to absolve you of said sin. Hence the danger of being involved in those ecclesiastic communities.

 

[JonNC]

I’d add to that and point out that without confession they would have a hard time being able to spiritually participate, since many are in a grave state of sin (not because they don’t confess to a Priest) but because many protestants and non denominationals as well all know believe in once saved forever saved. I’m not making a debate about that stance but just that for many with that mindset, when they commit a sin its already forgiven by Christ. Feeling bad about a sin you’ve committed isn’t enough for God to absolve you of said sin. Hence the danger of being involved in those ecclesiastic communities.

And Lutherans have confession/Absolution.

Jon

 

[Marybeloved]

I never thought of it this way, but I think you’ve hit it exactly. The idea of worship is profoundly different between Cathlics and Protestants, for a few different reasons. As you say, they don’t have the Eucharist - God with us. They can’t even begin to understand what that means. So the way we pray to Mary and the saints is how they pray to God and look at it as worship. They don’t understand in the fullest sense what it means to literally fall on your knees before your Creator. Because they don’t have the Mass, they never get any real glimpse of heaven, and can’t understand where we are coming from.

My friend, worshiping/adoring your Creator is man’s ultimate duty in existence, as has clearly been taught in the Scriptures, OT and also by Our Lord himself- “You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength and with all your mind” This is latria- It’s the duty of every human being and we are all born with an intuition of this duty.

It seems that you and others think that if you’re unable to attend mass, it’s impossible to attend to your primary duty in life? Can that really be true? That if there’s no priest around, you cannot do what you have been made to do?

I agree that the mass is superior worship- The perfect latria- Why? Because ***It is Jesus’ own act of latria to God! ***Because of that, it’s absolutely perfect, We know that in Christ’s act of latria throughout his life and concluding in his sacrifice on the cross, God is perfectly adored as he should be.

So it’s silly to think that attending mass=worship, but praying to God is reverence- That’s ridiculous! Jesus does not take away your duty as a creature of God to worship your own creator! He just gives us a chance to unite our own imperfect acts of latria to his own absolutely perfect act of latria so that we can worship God perfectly in Christ.

But you must perform your own latria to even participate in Christs’ latria in the liturgy! Intention to give/offer/sacrifice yourself, in all you are, your work, all you do and all you have to your creator must accompany your participation in the mass for you to worship properly- Most Catholics are not even aware of this duty (which explains the terrible lack of reverence that many complain about). But worship (should) takes place in everything we do- We work for God, we love our families for God, we are good citizens for God, good neighbors, friends etc- All for our God, returning to God all that comes from him; and when we address him, we are doing it in the attitude of Christ’s definition of worship (all our hearts, minds, souls, strength)- It is NOT simple reverence/dulia/hyperdulia in any way- It’s worship- Latria, though it is imperfect because we are imperfect and offer imperfect things in an imperfect way- It’s still worship- due only to our creator and no one else!

I think in many ways they see God as their “buddy” in the same way we see Mary and the saints.

I think that this is very unfair. Do you think that those Jews who do not practice a form of veneration of saints (most) see God as “buddy”? Lets not fall into the same trap of misrepresenting non-Catholic worship that we complain of so bitterly when it’s done to us.

They also have no concept of “communion of the saints.” They think when someone is dead, that’s it. No more contact. They don’t know anything about the angels and praying to them.

This is true for most protestants, but not all.

 

[SonCatcher]

I’d add to that and point out that without confession they would have a hard time being able to spiritually participate, since many are in a grave state of sin (not because they don’t confess to a Priest) but because many protestants and non denominationals as well all know believe in once saved forever saved. I’m not making a debate about that stance but just that for many with that mindset, when they commit a sin its already forgiven by Christ. Feeling bad about a sin you’ve committed isn’t enough for God to absolve you of said sin. Hence the danger of being involved in those ecclesiastic communities.

In Catholicism, we allow that one who has desire to confess his sin but is unable to through no fault of his own has had grace restored such that he would not see hell should he die. Those who are raised in a tradition that lacks the Sacrament of Reconciliation are prevented through no fault of their own.

OSAS can indeed be problematic but not due to the lack of the Sacraments. The problem with OSAS is that the statement can lead the adherent into a false sense of security where they stop trying to repent and do better. Many of them do continually try to amend their lives, however. Those who do so have at least the level of grace available to them that the repentant Catholic prevented from Confession has.

Non-Catholic traditions that do include Confession present an interesting case. As Catholics, we believe their clergy lack the faculties to absolve. However, we must recognize that those raise in the tradition are making a best effort to reconcile with God. Again, they have at least the level of grace of the repentant Catholic who cannot confess.

Remember that whoever does escape hell does ultimately spend eternity in Heaven.

 

[SonCatcher]

My friend, worshiping/adoring your Creator is man’s ultimate duty in existence, as has clearly been taught in the Scriptures, OT and also by Our Lord himself- “You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength and with all your mind” This is latria- It’s the duty of every human being and we are all born with an intuition of this duty.

It seems that you and others think that if you’re unable to attend mass, it’s impossible to attend to your primary duty in life? Can that really be true? That if there’s no priest around, you cannot do what you have been made to do?

I agree that the mass is superior worship- The perfect latria- Why? Because ***It is Jesus’ own act of latria to God! ***Because of that, it’s absolutely perfect, We know that in Christ’s act of latria throughout his life and concluding in his sacrifice on the cross, God is perfectly adored as he should be.

So it’s silly to think that attending mass=worship, but praying to God is reverence- That’s ridiculous! Jesus does not take away your duty as a creature of God to worship your own creator! He just gives us a chance to unite our own imperfect acts of latria to his own absolutely perfect act of latria so that we can worship God perfectly in Christ.

But you must perform your own latria to even participate in Christs’ latria in the liturgy! Intention to give/offer/sacrifice yourself, in all you are, your work, all you do and all you have to your creator must accompany your participation in the mass for you to worship properly- Most Catholics are not even aware of this duty (which explains the terrible lack of reverence that many complain about). But worship (should) takes place in everything we do- We work for God, we love our families for God, we are good citizens for God, good neighbors, friends etc- All for our God, returning to God all that comes from him; and when we address him, we are doing it in the attitude of Christ’s definition of worship (all our hearts, minds, souls, strength)- It is NOT simple reverence/dulia/hyperdulia in any way- It’s worship- Latria, though it is imperfect because we are imperfect and offer imperfect things in an imperfect way- It’s still worship- due only to our creator and no one else!

I think that this is very unfair. Do you think that those Jews who do not practice a form of veneration of saints (most) see God as “buddy”? Lets not fall into the same trap of misrepresenting non-Catholic worship that we complain of so bitterly when it’s done to us.
This is true for most protestants, but not all.

well said!

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by DadDave

So if Mary is an order of magnitude greater than why pray to other saints at all? And for that matter Jesus is infinitely greater than Mary so why not pray to Jesus?

.

Timothy H REPLY

There are many, many threads about praying to Saints vs. Mary vs. Jesus, Mediatrix of All Grace, do we have to go through Mary, some so heated that at least one person, the OP, got banned.

My comments were in the context of the Catholic doctrine of hyperdulua compared to non-Catholic worship. I’m not going to engage the topic of why Mary vs Jesus

So why do Catholics choose to pray to “lesser saints” is a GREAT question.

The asnwer is simply personal preference BASED ON the life of that paticular Saint and the CAUSE for which one is praying.

Every Saint had a charism that can be tied into. Saint Gerald for pregnacy issues, St. Jude for hopeless causes; St Anthony for miracles, and so on and so on.

If you’d like more information log onto www.newadvent.org and look under “S” for saints or if you have a name like Tim or Pat look under 'T"or 'P" for that particular saints background.

ALL Saints [capitol S] share in the Beatific Vision: actually being in Gods Presence. But Mary is after all “mom” to Jesus and that fact alone gives her a very special place.

IF you’d like more infomation on what we Catholics believe about Mary log onto my BLOG below.

God Bles you,
Pat

 

[A_Catholic]

My friend, worshiping/adoring your Creator is man’s ultimate duty in existence, as has clearly been taught in the Scriptures, OT and also by Our Lord himself- “You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength and with all your mind” This is latria- It’s the duty of every human being and we are all born with an intuition of this duty.

It seems that you and others think that if you’re unable to attend mass, it’s impossible to attend to your primary duty in life? Can that really be true? That if there’s no priest around, you cannot do what you have been made to do?

I agree that the mass is superior worship- The perfect latria- Why? Because ***It is Jesus’ own act of latria to God! ***Because of that, it’s absolutely perfect, We know that in Christ’s act of latria throughout his life and concluding in his sacrifice on the cross, God is perfectly adored as he should be.

So it’s silly to think that attending mass=worship, but praying to God is reverence- That’s ridiculous! Jesus does not take away your duty as a creature of God to worship your own creator! He just gives us a chance to unite our own imperfect acts of latria to his own absolutely perfect act of latria so that we can worship God perfectly in Christ.

But you must perform your own latria to even participate in Christs’ latria in the liturgy! Intention to give/offer/sacrifice yourself, in all you are, your work, all you do and all you have to your creator must accompany your participation in the mass for you to worship properly- Most Catholics are not even aware of this duty (which explains the terrible lack of reverence that many complain about). But worship (should) takes place in everything we do- We work for God, we love our families for God, we are good citizens for God, good neighbors, friends etc- All for our God, returning to God all that comes from him; and when we address him, we are doing it in the attitude of Christ’s definition of worship (all our hearts, minds, souls, strength)- It is NOT simple reverence/dulia/hyperdulia in any way- It’s worship- Latria, though it is imperfect because we are imperfect and offer imperfect things in an imperfect way- It’s still worship- due only to our creator and no one else!

I think that this is very unfair. Do you think that those Jews who do not practice a form of veneration of saints (most) see God as “buddy”? Lets not fall into the same trap of misrepresenting non-Catholic worship that we complain of so bitterly when it’s done to us.
This is true for most protestants, but not all.

The Catholic Church is far more than superior to other religions. It is the only Church founded by Jesus Christ. It is like comparing a glass door knob and the Hope Diamond. There is no comparison. Other religions contain certain truths, certainly, but the fullness of the truth can only be found in the Catholic Church. I would never begin to question the sincerity of anyone else. I am sure they are doing the best they know. But they do not have the Eucharist (despite what our Lutheran friend says, and as I am sure all Catholics will agree). But what they have is so spiritually poor compared to what Our Lord has given us in the Catholic Church. How can you understand what true worship is - the Mass - if you have never experienced it? I can understand Protestants getting very upset at this statement, but why does it upset Catholics?

I really don’t understand why you are attacking me so viciously. I love the Catholic Church. I think it is a precious gift from our Lord. The OP was asking if the protestant worship of God is the same as Catholics’ veneration of Mary. Technically it is not, because Protestants do recognize God as their Creator and Saviour. Certainly Catholics do not see Mary in that sense at all. But Protestants do not have the full sense of worship that has been given to the Catholic Church. How could they? They rejected the true and only Church founded by Jesus Christ. The Protestants have a limited understanding of God. That is a fact, and that is why they do not venerate Mary or the saints.

I am sorry if that upsets you. Truth can be unsettling.

 

[Marybeloved]

The Catholic Church is far more than superior to other religions. It is the only Church founded by Jesus Christ. It is like comparing a glass door knob and the Hope Diamond. There is no comparison. Other religions contain certain truths, certainly, but the fullness of the truth can only be found in the Catholic Church. I would never begin to question the sincerity of anyone else. I am sure they are doing the best they know. But they do not have the Eucharist (despite what our Lutheran friend says, and as I am sure all Catholics will agree). But what they have is so spiritually poor compared to what Our Lord has given us in the Catholic Church. How can you understand what true worship is - the Mass - if you have never experienced it? I can understand Protestants getting very upset at this statement, but why does it upset Catholics?

I really don’t understand why you are attacking me so viciously. I love the Catholic Church. I think it is a precious gift from our Lord. The OP was asking if the protestant worship of God is the same as Catholics’ veneration of Mary. Technically it is not, because Protestants do recognize God as their Creator and Saviour. Certainly Catholics do not see Mary in that sense at all. But Protestants do not have the full sense of worship that has been given to the Catholic Church. How could they? They rejected the true and only Church founded by Jesus Christ. The Protestants have a limited understanding of God. That is a fact, and that is why they do not venerate Mary or the saints.

I am sorry if that upsets you. Truth can be unsettling.

First…attacked you viciously? Come on, my friend. You said some inaccurate things which I sought to correct- I had no intention of attacking you or anyone.

Second, much of what you are discussing is off topic- we have not been asked to compare the superiority of the Catholic faith and church with others, or to discuss the Church’s identity as the one true Church founded by Christ containing the fullness of the faith (which I believe totally) so much of what you say in your first paragraph is true but irrelevant, nonetheless.

Third, if you take time to understand what I wrote, I don’t see how I’ve said anything like non-Catholic worship is equal to the mass . I said very clearly, that the mass is Jesus’ worship of the Father, which obviously makes it not only superior worship but perfect worship. What I said was that it does not replace your own duty to worship, but rather is an avenue to worship perfectly through Christ. That you couldn’t even be able to participate in that eternal worship of Christ w/out yourself worshiping!

You made a mistake to imply that if you don’t attend mass you don’t worship at all but merely “venerate” God and make him your “buddy” which is very untrue and grossly misrepresentative of both Catholic non-Eucharistic worship and non-Catholic worship generally.

Your earlier comments implied that Catholics only “venerate” God in prayer as we venerate the saints, never offer him latria except at mass- which implies that what others accuse us of, of giving Mary the same thing we give God in prayer is true! Of course it’s not, we adore God in prayer- We don’t “venerate” him! We don’t give dulia or even hyperdulia to the Blessed Trinity in prayer!- Have you ever even heard of such a term “veneration” or “dulia” being used by Catholic with regard to the Blessed Trinity before? Our prayer, in private prayer and devotions, to the Blessed Trinity is not the same as our prayer to Mary and the Saints! You were implying that protestants merely “venerate” God in prayer as Catholics venerate the Virgin and the Saints, and do not actually adore him, just because they do not have mass and our lady and the saints! It’s not true!

Worship is what all humans are created to do. We do it imperfectly, but we still do it when we turn our mind, will and heart to our creator in prayer and submit to him- The mass is a chance to join our imperfect worship to Christ’s perfect worship so that God can be properly worshiped by us through and in Christ.

So, no, there was no “unsettling truth” to your earlier statements which is why I corrected you. No ill will was meant by me.

Peace!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

TimothyH;8500995] My question is, if non-Catholic worship lacks the Eucharistic, sacrificial element, how is is any different from veneration? Is the only difference between veneration and worship an understanding that Mary is a creature and God is the creator? Or is worship something more than praying, singing, feelings of love and thanksgiving and contrition, and obedience? Isn’t Protestant worship of God the same as Catholic veneration of Mary, minus the need to understand the difference between creator and creature? Or is there a relative gradation of worship?** Does the Bible give us clues?**

Yes here is a clue from the bible;

John 4:22 You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand,… 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth.”*

Couple of things need defining here; The disposition of the person engaged in worship and the definition of what is believed to be “Spirit and what is believed to be Truth.”

If one who is worshipping God with out Spirit and Truth, it appears you are relating this lack of “Spirit and Truth” to a lower form of worship compared to the veneration and respect reverred by Catholics who have a devotion in the communion of Saints who venerate Mary and the Saints in heaven. This veneration is never worship to Mary and the heavenly Saints.

If God is Spirit and Jesus is Truth, one must possess both in order to worship God in Spirit and Truth.

Truth then is a person, Truth is never an ideology from men. If Truth is the person Jesus Christ. One must have the Real True presence of Jesus Christ in their midst in order to worship God in Truth = Jesus.

“No one comes to the Father except by me”= Jesus.

If God is Spirit then Spirit is never to be “symbolic” for Spirit is a person.

Spirit (life) then is what makes Truth (Jesus body and blood) present by the Word of God.

Jesus states “the Words I have spoken to you are spirit and life while the flesh is of no avail.”

Non Catholics worship in the gifts of the Spirit and do not believe in the real True presence of Truth = Jesus body and blood, soul and divinity in their midst, but hold to a “symbol” representing Jesus presence not His real True body and blood presence. For non catholics believe it is from these gifts of the spirit (joy, love, peace etc) that they worship God. A symbol never reaches the reality of God’s True presence.

Only Jesus = Truth real sacrificed/resurrected body and blood can attain True worship from the believer in him, with him and through him in the Spirit before God. A symbolic Jesus nor any other form of worship can reach the heavenly throne except in the Spirit and Truth = Jesus body and blood real presence.

In fact this non-catholic symbolic spiritual worship does not compare to the Catholic faith of veneration of Mary and the Saints. Even though veneration of Mary is never worship, nor can a symbol representing Jesus ever constitute the biblical form of worship revealed by Jesus.

**A real presence is needed here, the gifts (from emotions) of the Spirit of joy and peace do not get you before God’s presence either.

“God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth.” Define the biblical definition of Spirit and Truth and you have “true worshippers who will worship the Father in heaven in Spirit and Truth and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him.”/**Peace be with you

 

[Marybeloved]

I’m sorry, my friend. If I’ve misunderstood you, please do not hesitate to correct me.

Non Catholics worship in the gifts of the Spirit and do not believe in the real True presence of Truth = Jesus body and blood, soul and divinity in their midst, but hold to a “symbol” representing Jesus presence not His real True body and blood presence. For non catholics believe it is from these gifts of the spirit (joy, love, peace etc) that they worship God. A symbol never reaches the reality of God’s True presence.

Only Jesus = Truth real sacrificed/resurrected body and blood can attain True worship from the believer in him, with him and through him in the Spirit before God. A symbolic Jesus nor any other form of worship can reach the heavenly throne except in the Spirit and Truth = Jesus body and blood real presence.

In fact this non-catholic symbolic spiritual worship does not compare to the Catholic faith of veneration of Mary and the Saints. Even though veneration of Mary is never worship, nor can a symbol representing Jesus ever constitute the biblical form of worship revealed by Jesus.

**A real presence is needed here, the gifts (from emotions) of the Spirit of joy and peace do not get you before God’s presence either.

“God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth.” Define the biblical definition of Spirit and Truth and you have “true worshippers who will worship the Father in heaven in Spirit and Truth and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him.”/**Peace be with you

Now you say : A real presence is needed here, the gifts (from emotions) of the Spirit of joy and peace do not get you before God’s presence either. And I completely agree with that.

But I ask: Do you believe that a material presence of Christ is the only true presence of Christ?

When you speak to God in prayer in your room or in the secret chamber of your heart as Christ told us- Do you believe that he’s **not **truly there with you? Truly present?

We are taught that when we believe and are baptized, grace flows into us and The Blessed Trinity comes to live in our souls- Do you believe that apart from having the Eucharist that once a day, the Blessed Trinity is not actually in you and with you?

Our faith tells us that Christ ascended so that he could “get out of time” and be able from that heavenly realm to be present to us everywhere in truth, in body, soul and divinity, though invisibly. Do you believe that if you talk to him right now he’s not truly right there with you wherever you are, in truth, just as the visible things you see around you, only he’s invisible?

Our faith tells us that God is everywhere. Our faith tells us that it’s the Spirit of God that enables us to do all things including worship, even searches God’s heart and ours, even gives us faith, hope and love which three (the Saints tell us) are the only way to know, love and serve God (worship). It’s him who makes Christ present to us in physically in the Eucharist, immaterially but really/truly in our prayers and acts of love and devotion and the Blessed Trinity present in our souls, and grants us faith and to love them with the love with which they love (which is that same Spirit). And the Spirit is invisible, but truly present.

I think it’s dangerous for Catholics to have this presumption that outside mass, worships comes to an abrupt end or is impossible- It’s not the teaching of the Saints or even the Church! Mass is the definition of worship-heavenly liturgy made present to us, but it encompasses our whole lives- We are not meant to spend any second not worshiping God- We do that because we are sinners, weak, far from perfect, but we always try.

 

[A_Catholic]

First…attacked you viciously? Come on, my friend. You said some inaccurate things which I sought to correct- I had no intention of attacking you or anyone.

Second, much of what you are discussing is off topic- we have not been asked to compare the superiority of the Catholic faith and church with others, or to discuss the Church’s identity as the one true Church founded by Christ containing the fullness of the faith (which I believe totally) so much of what you say in your first paragraph is true but irrelevant, nonetheless.

Third, if you take time to understand what I wrote, I don’t see how I’ve said anything like non-Catholic worship is equal to the mass . I said very clearly, that the mass is Jesus’ worship of the Father, which obviously makes it not only superior worship but perfect worship. What I said was that it does not replace your own duty to worship, but rather is an avenue to worship perfectly through Christ. That you couldn’t even be able to participate in that eternal worship of Christ w/out yourself worshiping!

You made a mistake to imply that if you don’t attend mass you don’t worship at all but merely “venerate” God and make him your “buddy” which is very untrue and grossly misrepresentative of both Catholic non-Eucharistic worship and non-Catholic worship generally.

Your earlier comments implied that Catholics only “venerate” God in prayer as we venerate the saints, never offer him latria except at mass- which implies that what others accuse us of, of giving Mary the same thing we give God in prayer is true! Of course it’s not, we adore God in prayer- We don’t “venerate” him! We don’t give dulia or even hyperdulia to the Blessed Trinity in prayer!- Have you ever even heard of such a term “veneration” or “dulia” being used by Catholic with regard to the Blessed Trinity before? Our prayer, in private prayer and devotions, to the Blessed Trinity is not the same as our prayer to Mary and the Saints! You were implying that protestants merely “venerate” God in prayer as Catholics venerate the Virgin and the Saints, and do not actually adore him, just because they do not have mass and our lady and the saints! It’s not true!

Worship is what all humans are created to do. We do it imperfectly, but we still do it when we turn our mind, will and heart to our creator in prayer and submit to him- The mass is a chance to join our imperfect worship to Christ’s perfect worship so that God can be properly worshiped by us through and in Christ.

So, no, there was no “unsettling truth” to your earlier statements which is why I corrected you. No ill will was meant by me.

Peace!

Using the term “buddy” was a very poor choice of words. I agree. Where did I say Catholics only venerate God outside of Mass? I think you saw something that was definitely not there because I would never say such a thing. You’re fighting a comment that I never made.

But I do take exception to your use of the word “superior” when describing Catholic worship, and in partiular, the Mass. The Mass is so far and above any other form of worship on earth that the word “superior” is not enough to describe it. The Mass IS the salvation of mankind, both physically and spiritually. And there is no other worship on earth that can begin to compare with it. With Mass, we are joining our worship directly with the saints and angels and our Blessed Mother in heaven. I like to think of the fact that even if there are only a few of us physically present at church, the truth is the church is packed with the angels and saints, SRO. This cannot be said of any form of man made worship, which all other religions are. Do you think the angels and saints are present at man made worship, no matter how reverent it might be?

That is why I say that in comparison to the ultimate worship of God that we have been divinely given in the Mass, it makes man made worship of God of such inferior quality that it is of basically the same quality as the veneration which Catholics give to Mary and the saints, even though technically it is not the same. In many pagan religions, in fact, worship is actually very superstitious, and is done out of fear and trying to appease the wrath of their god, not in love and adoration as we (and Protestants and Jews) worship. I don’t think worship of the Mystical Body of Christ can be equated in any way to man made worship, even if it is just to say one is better or “superior.”

I think Gabriel of 12’s post answers this question very nicely. Yes, other religions do worship God, but because they reject the Catholic faith, their worship is at best incomplete.

 

[Marybeloved]

I don’t think worship of the Mystical Body of Christ can be equated in any way to man made worship, even if it is just to say one is better or “superior.”

You keep speaking as though I said something that I know I did not- “equate”? How is this here below (from my first post to you) “equating mass to man-made worship”?

I agree that the mass is superior worship- The perfect latria- Why? Because ***It is Jesus’ own act of latria to God! ***Because of that, **it’s absolutely perfect, We know that in Christ’s act of latria throughout his life and concluding in his sacrifice on the cross, God is perfectly adored as he should be. **

So it’s silly to think that attending mass=worship, but praying to God is reverence- That’s ridiculous! Jesus does not take away your duty as a creature of God to worship your own creator! He just gives us a chance to unite our own imperfect acts of latria to his own absolutely perfect act of latria so that we can worship God perfectly in Christ.

Unless you’re only reading bits of my posts, How on Earth could you ever conclude from these two paragraphs that I’m equating mass to man-made worship? What does “absolutely perfect” mean to you? What does “God is perfectly adored as he should be” mean to you?

I think Gabriel of 12’s post answers this question very nicely. Yes, other religions do worship God, but because they reject the Catholic faith, their worship is at best incomplete.

I think I can conclude that you really did not read both my posts, atleast not well- I’ve spoken at least three/four times that other acts of latria are imperfect! I’ve even said that they are imperfect because we are imperfect! See here:

It’s worship- Latria, though it is imperfect because we are imperfect and offer imperfect things in an imperfect way- It’s still worship- due only to our creator and no one else!

I don’t understand any of your objections or complaints. My posts make it very clear what place the mass takes in worship. They make it clear that our own worship outside mass is imperfect. They also make it clear that imperfect worship of the creator, though imperfect, is still distinct from and is certainly not “veneration” Not ours or Jews’ or Protestants’ worship is simply “veneration”- No matter how many times we may like to repeat that to ourselves. And that was the question asked and you replied to, and I reponded to you about.

I think you perceived an attack and reacted- But your attempt at saying that I diminished the mass or equated it to other worship, or claimed that “man-made worship” is equal to the mass, is honestly just in your imagination- not my postings.

Again, I meant no offense- Only the correction of a mistake.

Peace!

 

[A_Catholic]

You keep speaking as though I said something that I know I did not- “equate”? How is this here below (from my first post to you) “equating mass to man-made worship”?
Unless you’re only reading bits of my posts, How on Earth could you ever conclude from these two paragraphs that I’m equating mass to man-made worship? What does “absolutely perfect” mean to you? What does “God is perfectly adored as he should be” mean to you?

I think I can conclude that you really did not read both my posts, atleast not well- I’ve spoken at least three/four times that other acts of latria are imperfect! I’ve even said that they are imperfect because we are imperfect! See here:I don’t understand any of your objections or complaints. My posts make it very clear what place the mass takes in worship. They make it clear that our own worship outside mass is imperfect. They also make it clear that imperfect worship of the creator, though imperfect, is still distinct from and is certainly not “veneration” Not ours or Jews’ or Protestants’ worship is simply “veneration”- No matter how many times we may like to repeat that to ourselves. And that was the question asked and you replied to, and I reponded to you about.

I think you perceived an attack and reacted- But your attempt at saying that I diminished the mass or equated it to other worship, or claimed that “man-made worship” is equal to the mass, is honestly just in your imagination- not my postings.

Again, I meant no offense- Only the correction of a mistake.

Peace!

My biggest problem with your original post is that you originally said that Catholic worship is superior to non-Cathlic worship. You did follow it up with the word “perfect”, but I still think that by using the word “superior” you are saying that Catholic worship and non-Catholic worship can be compared. That is like saying Mt. Everest is superior to an ant hill. It is not that Catholic worship is superior to other religions. It is the only true worship. That is what I was trying to point out to you. I don’t think you can compare the Mass, which is divinely given, to a man made worship, and all non-Catholic religion is man made. You seem to have corrected yourself in your following posts. You also accused me of saying that praying to God is reverence. I definitely did not say that. I said that compared to how Catholics pray to God, the Protestants’ form of worship is very similar to the reverence we give to Mary and the Saints. I did not say it was veneration.

The original reason for my post was a reaction to this post from Steven VH, which for some reason you did not think was wrong, even though I basically echoed it:

I would agree with you to the extent that most Protestant faiths have a different idea of what entails “worship” than do Catholics. In most denominations, prayer is reserved for God alone, so the fact that a Catholic might pray to Mary or any other saint, for them means that we are therefore worshiping them. They have never experienced falling on their knees and worshiping Christ in the Eucharist and therefore have no comparison. It is understandable, to me at least, that they might see it this way without having it explained from a Cathoic view.

I had actually never thought of it that way before and I was just expressing my reaction to that post.

I think you need to re-read your posts, because you were definitely attacking what I wrote and did not deem it to have any merit at all. In fact, you still seem to be making that point.

I’m done.

God bless you.

 

[Marybeloved]

This is what you initially posted

I never thought of it this way, but I think you’ve hit it exactly. The idea of worship is profoundly different between Cathlics and Protestants, for a few different reasons. As you say, they don’t have the Eucharist - God with us. They can’t even begin to understand what that means. So the way we pray to Mary and the saints is how they pray to God and look at it as worship. They don’t understand in the fullest sense what it means to literally fall on your knees before your Creator. Because they don’t have the Mass, they never get any real glimpse of heaven, and can’t understand where we are coming from.

I think in many ways they see God as their “buddy” in the same way we see Mary and the saints. They also have no concept of “communion of the saints.” They think when someone is dead, that’s it. No more contact. They don’t know anything about the angels and praying to them. Their “founding fathers” such as Luther and Calvin took so much away from them, leaving them impoverished spiritually.

Thank you for helping me see this so much more clearly.

The bold underlined part says it all- Nothing there like “similar” here- That’s just something you’re saying now- The way we pray to Mary and the saints (which is veneration) is the way they pray to God and look at it as worship! Nothing there to misunderstand .

And you say I “corrected” myself subsequently? There is nothing in my post to correct except what you imagined I said! You took a word I used out of the context in which I used it, and assumed that I said something I didn’t. “Superior” is perfectly valid the way I used it if someone actually reads the whole paragraph instead of taking a word out of context. And yes I was comparing the mass worship with imperfect forms of worship because, well- they are both worship and we are discussing the different natures of worship!!!

I really don’t know why you view objections to your posts on a public forum as attacks.

Peace

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Marybeloved;8527911]I’m sorry, my friend. If I’ve misunderstood you, please do not hesitate to correct me.Now you say : A real presence is needed here, the gifts (from emotions) of the Spirit of joy and peace do not get you before God’s presence either. And I completely agree with that.

Hi Marybeloved; Ok, I have only introduced the biblical principle of worship revealed in “Spirit and Truth” thus far.

But I ask: Do you believe that a material

presence of Christ is the only true presence of Christ?

What you introduce here is a “Baptized” child of God can go before God, yes. If you want your worship to be “perfect” you need the True presence of Jesus body, blood soul and divinity to go before God, because nothing unclean goes before the Father, we need Jesus body, blood soul and divinity inorder to enter God’s presence.

One word needs introducing here and that is “Liturgy”. To participate in the heavenly liturgy worship of God, one needs the same liturgy on earth that participates with Mary, Saints and Angels “in Spirit and Truth”.

To be perfect one has to leave all behind and follow Jesus. We do this beginning in the penitential rite of the liturgy of the Mass.

In the silence of the revelations of Mass it is here when we “be still and know that IAM God”.

When you speak to God in prayer in your room or in the secret chamber of your heart as Christ told us- Do you believe that he’s **not **

truly there with you? Truly present?

Yes to every baptized child of God, God’s love is ever present and faith believed in. But you have not entered into worship here, only private prayer of the baptized who are in Christ. Let us not forget either in the confessional “where two or more are gathered in my name there Iam in their midst.”

In private prayer Jesus is present but His body, blood soul and divinity are not Truly present. This form of worship encompasses “ALL” creation via a Liturgy Mass.

We are taught that when we believe and are baptized, grace flows into us and The Blessed Trinity comes to live in our souls- Do you believe that apart from having the Eucharist that once a day, the Blessed Trinity is not

actually in you and with you?

Yes; but, God did not create me to be isolated from creation and His holy family. God has always given man an avenue to His presence. Once in the cool of the day, once in a burning bush, once in a rock, once in a cloud, once in flesh =incarnation, now in His Eucharist we can go to pray in God’s True presence in adoration and the heavenly liturgy on earth as it is in heaven.

cont;

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont;

(Marybeloved)
Our faith tells us that Christ ascended so that he could “get out of time” and be able from that heavenly realm to be present to us everywhere in truth, in body, soul and divinity, though invisibly.

Yes, and I draw your attention to the word you used “US” not an isolated individual. The only one that entered a heavenly liturgy Mass alone while on earth was John the revelator when God revealed to him the heavenly Mass liturgy in Revelations.

Do you believe that if you talk to him right now he’s not truly right there with you wherever you are, in truth, just as the visible things you see around you, only he’s invisible?

Yes, and what you describe is private prayer when God delights to hear from His children. But I cannot make Jesus body, blood soul and divinity present before me, I need to attend the mysteries in the liturgy. When “What so great a nation we are to have the presence of God in our midst” Deut.?

Our faith tells us that God is everywhere. Our faith tells us that it’s the Spirit of God that enables us to do all things including worship, even searches God’s heart and ours, even gives us faith, hope and love which three (the Saints tell us) are the only way to know, love and serve God (worship). It’s him who makes Christ present to us in physically in the Eucharist, immaterially but really/truly in our prayers and acts of love and devotion and the Blessed Trinity present in our souls, and grants us faith and to love them with the love with which they love (which is that same Spirit). And the Spirit is invisible, but truly present.

God is love, God is Spirit. We are parted Love, and we are given the first installment of salvation via baptism the Spirit of God. When our bodies and soul are supplied with these God’s grace becomes “sufficient”. But in order to go before the True presence of God, we have to be consumed in the True body, blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. Our bodies alone cannot withstand the presence of God for God is a consuming fire and without Jesus real true presence bodily going before the presence of God we will surely die.

It may suffice to mention here, there is a difference between Worshipping God in liturgy and private prayer, worship and devotion to God from a baptized child of God.

I think it’s dangerous for Catholics to have this presumption that outside mass, worships comes to an abrupt end or is impossible- It’s not the teaching of the Saints or even the Church! Mass is the definition of worship-heavenly liturgy made present to us, but it encompasses our whole lives- We are not meant to spend any second not worshiping God- We do that because we are sinners, weak, far from perfect, but we always try.

I agree with you here. Do you know what Mass means? “Este Misa Est” Go it is sent. In other words upon participating in the heavenly mystical liturgy of the Mass, God’s people are sent out who are consumed in the body, blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ.

What I have explained is Worship in the presence of God, it would appear that you are mixing this with being sent out after Mass. The first we go before God’s presence, the second we are sent out into the World in the presence of God. You can’t have either unless one has his/her wedding garment on which is baptism.

The liturgy never limits God’s power to be present. The Liturgy is a sure way, promised by God, to worship Him in Spirit and Truth.

In Him, with Him through Him in the unity of the Holy Spirit is when we give God all glory and honor in worship. That is because in the in Him, with Him through Him we have access to the Father by Jesus body, blood soul and divinity Truly presence.

Peace be with you

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Communion of Saints extends to the Apostles. Even here you see Christians holding items of the martyred due to their sacrifice as suffering servants. Veneration of the Saints is a very early concept in Christianity. First appears with the Blood of St Stephan then St Paul and St Peter. Then to the catacombs.

There’s no doubt the Saints still interceed today from Heaven as they did on Earth.

The idea Catholics pray to Our Lady for Her intercession to Her Son. Is only due to the infanite respect and worship of Jesus Christ. Its not a replacement of Christs worship, its in relation to it. Its a respect placed in time and through time by the Saints. Who in truth are the example of human behavior and veneration to Christ. And this also dates back very early in the Christian Church.

The perfection in worship includes Our-Lady and the Saints, as we see through the Saints and more profoundly though the mystics.

If we look at the way the orders of the Catholic Church worship, then yes we see the people of the Eucharist. The first order at hand is the liturgy and the Mass and Holy days of obligation.

However as one seeks a more personal in-depth relationship, and seeks the path of the Saints, we soon realize there a few more pieces to the puzzle. Here you find the Divine Office or Liturgy of the Hours, the Rosary, Chaplet of Divine Mercy, the Litanys etc. In other words a life of contemplative/meditative prayer, which for some leads to mystical contemplation.

Its no different than combining Our Lady in you life of Christ. The same same concept it to add to the life of the Eucharist to bring one closer in love to Christ.

The Mystical Body of Christ is the path to the Lord. Its the connection of the Human/Divine and connects to the Divine.

To say, I don’t need to to do this or that. Is simply to deny yourself the use of Tool in the Tool box. Why one would do this is only a indication of the physical world we live in, and what we conceive as truth thus reality.

Peace

 

[Marybeloved]

Hello Gabriel

Yes to every baptized child of God, God’s love is ever present and faith believed in. But you have not entered into worship here, only private prayer of the baptized who are in Christ. Let us not forget either in the confessional “where two or more are gathered in my name there Iam in their midst.”

I agree with most of what you say about mass being the perfect worship et al- The only bit I have a problem with is this above. Since most of these conversations seem to repeat the same points in different ways (though just saying the same thing) let me just post from the Church’s own mouth- The Catechism! regarding worship:

Adoration
2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.13
**2097 To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the “nothingness of the creature” who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name.14 The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world.
*** Prayer
2098 The acts of faith, hope, and charity enjoined by the first commandment are accomplished in prayer. Lifting up the mind toward God is an expression of our adoration of God: prayer of praise and thanksgiving, intercession and petition. Prayer is an indispensable condition for being able to obey God’s commandments. "[We] ought always to pray and not lose heart."15

Sacrifice
2099 It is right to offer sacrifice to God as a sign of adoration and gratitude, supplication and communion: "Every action done so as to cling to God in communion of holiness, and thus achieve blessedness, is a true sacrifice."16
2100 Outward sacrifice, to be genuine, must be the expression of spiritual sacrifice: "The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit. . . . "17 The prophets of the Old Covenant often denounced sacrifices that were not from the heart or not coupled with love of neighbor.18 Jesus recalls the words of the prophet Hosea: "I desire mercy, and not sacrifice."19 The only perfect sacrifice is the one that Christ offered on the cross as a total offering to the Father’s love and for our salvation.20 By uniting ourselves with his sacrifice we can make our lives a sacrifice to God.

The Church clearly defines worship much less narrowly than the many Catholics here do. In fact the Catechism’s wording is pretty close to the explanation I offered to “A Catholic” in my first post to her, a bit of which I quoted in my third response to her.

When we pray to the Blessed Trinity, it’s not mere devotion- It’s worship. You do not have to be at mass to perform your primary duty in life which is to love and worship God. When Jews and Protestants (And Catholics!) turn to God in the manner described, its not mere devotion or veneration- It’s worship. I even described it so in my first post here:

-During daily prayer/meditation, we are coming to commune with God our creator, the Blessed Trinity- We start by an act of the presence of God- Reminding ourselves in whose presence we are, becoming aware that we are literally before God- The attitude of my heart is a holy fear- I know I’m communing with THE one- The forever, the Absolute- He has absolute rights over me, he’s granting my very existence as I speak. All I am and all I have he can take away in an instant, I owe myself and all in an absolute way to the one I’m addressing, he has all power over me and it’s from him that mercy, forgiveness, goodness, everything comes- My attitude or my orientation is of one who is nothing before one who is absolute and everything- It’s a prostration of mind and will (or the intention thereof)- This “prayer” is worship- latria.

The OP’s question is therefore answered- Protestant worship of God cannot be presumed to be the same as Catholic veneration of Mary and the Saints. When Jews and Protestants turn to God with the above attitude, they’re doing what the Catechism calls adoration- This is worship and cannot be offered to any other apart from God. No one here can say that Protestants never turn to God like that, so no one can claim that they pray to God the way we pray to Mary, or that they don’t worship God because they don’t go to mass.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hello GabrielI agree with most of what you say about mass being the perfect worship et al- The only bit I have a problem with is this above. Since most of these conversations seem to repeat the same points in different ways (though just saying the same thing) let me just post from the Church’s own mouth- The Catechism! regarding worship:
The Church clearly defines worship much less narrowly than the many Catholics here do. In fact the Catechism’s wording is pretty close to the explanation I offered to “A Catholic” in my first post to her, a bit of which I quoted in my third response to her.

When we pray to the Blessed Trinity, it’s not mere devotion- It’s worship. You do not have to be at mass to perform your primary duty in life which is to love and worship God. When Jews and Protestants (And Catholics!) turn to God in the manner described, its not mere devotion or veneration- It’s worship. I even described it so in my first post here:
The OP’s question is therefore answered- Protestant worship of God cannot be presumed to be the same as Catholic veneration of Mary and the Saints. When Jews and Protestants turn to God with the above attitude, they’re doing what the Catechism calls adoration- This is worship and cannot be offered to any other apart from God. No one here can say that Protestants never turn to God like that, so no one can claim that they pray to God the way we pray to Mary, or that they don’t worship God because they don’t go to mass.

Again what you introduce deals with ones practice of virtue, prayer, adoration, etc… I do not disagree with these personal virtues practiced for Love of God.

What we are discussing is “Worship” compared to Catholics and non-catholics (protestants).

As far as Catholicism the “Eucharist” is the summit of our faith in which involves both liturgy and adoration.

The CCC clearly defines the liturgy of worship in paragraphs 1070-1074, The liturgy is the response of the virtues you listed from the catechism it is summarized very well in paragraph 1082-1083.

In summary all these you and I listed point to the Eucharist in worship before the Father.

Peace be with you

 

[kms123]

I have not read all the responses so pardon if this is repeat.

I wonder if what you mean is that because the Catholic Mass is the offering of The sacrifice, the ultimate type of worship to God, and because protestants do not, then their worship is less than ultimate.

too many commas, sorry

lol