Is The Punishment Eternal?

[dan1el]

This post might be dangerous for people who are not grounded in their faith.
Please do not read if you are not grounded in your faith as it may harm your faith.

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It was told to me that the word which is translated “eternal” or “for ever” is a word that actually means “to the ages”… does this mean “to ALL future ages” or “until the ages that it takes for them to suffer for their sins have passed” ?

Why else does Jesus say ( I have thought )
1.
“31”(B)Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

32"(C)Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in (D)this age or in the age to come.

I understand that there IS a sin which cannot be forgiven or atoned for, but that it is possible that after burning in the lake of fire for a certain amount of time/ages, that their sins will be atoned for (they will have paid God what they owed Him) and they will be released. Is this right?
Luke 12:58, 59
58When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.

59I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

Matthew 18:23-35
23"For this reason (A)the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to (B)settle accounts with his slaves.

24"When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him [a]ten thousand talents was brought to him.

25"But since he (C)did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him (D)to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

26"So the slave fell to the ground and (E)prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’

27"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and (F)forgave him the debt.

28"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred **denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’

29"So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’

30"But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

31"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.

32"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

33’(G)Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’

34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35"(H)My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

— If someone owes $1,000,000 in debt, once they finish paying, they no longer owe, and are no longer debtors. This reminds me of the passage from Ezekiel 24:13 “I tried to cleanse you,but you refused.So now you will remain in your filth until my fury against you has been satisfied.”
Luke 12:45-48
45But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

— If someone is beaten with a NUMBER of stripes, don’t the stripes STOP being given when all the stripes are finally delivered?

I only want to understand what this means… please, if someone understands, relate it to me, and please answer these questions.

If the punishment is not eternal, it will make me appreciate Christ’s atonement and God’s justice a lot MORE. I mean, would it be right to punish ETERNALLY people BORN into sin?**

 

[EnterCanaan]

yes the verse you are referencing is Revelation 20:10. In this verse God tells us that their is indeed an end to everything

Rev 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast[Satan] and the false prophet[Satan] are. And they will be tormented day and night for to]ever and ever.****

****This verse has been mistranslated, where it reads 'for’ever and ever, it should read 'to’ever and ever. Implying duration through a time, as opposed to infinite time and is the final day of Satan, hell, death, earth, and the universe.

****Root from (Greek) : εἰς
Transliteration: eis
Part of Speech: preposition.
Definitions: into, unto, to, towards, for, among.
Lexicon: eis, a Prep. Governing the Accusative, and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, towards, for, among. ie: duration through a time; of the time in which a thing is done.

The rest of the verses concerning the lake of fire for context sake:

Daniel 7:11
"I watched then because of the sound of the pompous[great] words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast[Satan] was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.

Rev 19:20
Then the beast[Satan] was captured, and with him the false prophet[Satan] who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

1Cor 15:26
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Rev 20:15
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

The second death is a reference to the end of Time. On that day, their will be a “NEW” heaven and “NEW” earth. So as you can see, Death, Hell, Satan, Sin, and all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire and that is the second death and that is the end of that.

God bless

 

[dan1el]

Please excuse me, sir, I do not feel my question has been addressed. Why does Jesus seem to say that some people WILL be tormented for a duration of time and then let out out torment, because they have paid the price for their sins after suffering for perhaps 2 or 3 or however many future “ages” are to come? I guess an “age” means like a chapter in a story or something. Like humanity on earth was an age, and now it is coming to an end, and the story will continue (the book of life) and in the future, these sinners will have learned not to mess with God’s holiness, will have paid what they owed God (in torment), and then be welcomed back into the “story”??

For instance, when someone does someone wrong (humanly speaking), they may say, “you’ll pay for that!” and they want to do something to them to make them pay, as they think they owe them, varying amounts. God also sees differing sins and says, “you’ll pay for that!” (but the amount we owe for the high crimes we commit against God is untold, since He is much more sensitive than we are, since He is much more holy and pure and good than we are, with a perfectly higher standard of morality) and perhaps these people “pay for that!” and they are now “even” with God, and what then? … please help.

If this is a false idea, I want to know. It is plaguing my mind.

 

[EnterCanaan]

I understand what you are saying, lets get a better understanding of your question, “is punishment eternal?”

Genesis 2:16-17
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So mankind was made in the image of God, we were made perfectly and given everything we needed by our creator God. Then God gives the law, the perfect law of God, He says, you can have anything, everything, however do not touch this one tree. Then His perfect creation rebelled against Him and this brought the perfect judgment of God. For breaking the law of God, man must pay the price to God. The judgment was clearly laid out, and He says, “for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”. So this is the precondition for all of mankind being spiritually dead. This is the case for all of mankind, every human being born is born into sin, and that is to be under the wrath of God, and that is to be seperated from God, and that is to be in hell.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In Genesis God already said the punishment for breaking His law is death, and here we have proof of that word as again God is saynig the wages of sin is death, this is refereing to spiritual death, which is to be under the wrath of God, which is to be seperated from God, which is to be in hell. This is the state every human being is born into, no exception, we are all born dead. Because we carry the iniquity of our original parents, their sin is carried to us, and the wages of sin is death, so we are born spiritually dead.

---

This is where we would learn about the grace of God, to save us from death. but your immediate question is punishment eternal, so we can skip this section as it does not pertain to your question.

---

Rev 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

1Cor 15:26
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Then we learn that in the end, even Death and Hades[hell] which is “punishment” will be destroyed by the second death, the ultimate destruction. To further emphasize that the lake of fire, which is the end of time, is actually the end of time and everything, we have the following verse.

Rev 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night for *[to]ever and ever.

*This verse has been mistranslated, where it reads 'for’ever and ever, it should read 'to’ever and ever. Implying duration through a time, as opposed to infinite time and is
the final day of Satan, hell, death, earth, and the universe.

*Root from (Greek) : εἰς
Transliteration: eis
Part of Speech: preposition.
Definitions: into, unto, to, towards, for, among.
Lexicon: eis, a Prep. Governing the Accusative, and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, towards, for, among. ie: duration through a time; of the time in which a thing is done.

This was a very brief study for you, I really hoped it helped. Your question was is Punishment Eternal? And we learned from the bible that punishment is not eternal, punishment is finished when it is thrown into the lake of fire. So now we see that indeed God does not continue to punish forever more, but instead ‘to’ ever more. Once Gods plan is finished, then a new heaven and a new earth will be made,

We can delve much deeper but this answers your immediate question. Punishment is not eternal, it is finite and will one day end.

 

[Kamalayka]

Ever hear of PURGATORY???

 

[dan1el]

How do you know that in context, eis was not supposed to be interpreted “forever” ? Are you a greek scholar?
I am studying this more, and comparing it with Daniel, which does seem to say that there
IS a resurrection of ETERNAL contempt for those who did wrongly, who sinned. And the hebrew word used there, since you can look up the many different usages of it, all mean “eternal” (dan 12:3).

Also, have you ever considered that the new heaven and new earth (which appear after the millenial reign, apparently) is Isaiah 65, and Is 65 still speaks of children being born DURING the new heaven and new earth, and it speaks of sinners? Children being born from who? The righteous who die and are resurrected after the thousand years? Those who attain the first resurrection “are not married nor are given in marriage”. I have wondered about that.

Coming closer to an answer…

 

[nineofnine]

Dan1el said:
I understand that there IS a sin which cannot be forgiven or atoned for, but that it is possible that after burning in the lake of fire for a certain amount of time/ages, that their sins will be atoned for (they will have paid God what they owed Him) and they will be released. Is this right?

(and lots of other stuff)

---

Your scriptural quotes need not endanger anyone’s faith. You have simply discovered some of the scriptural evidence for Purgatory. The punishment of hell is indeed eternal. The sins whose temporal punishment can be atoned for “in the age to come” are addressed in a state called Purgatory, which is temporary. All souls who enter Purgatory are bound for heaven - but they have to make a stopover on the way because “nothing unclean can enter heaven.” Even after you’re forgiven, your soul carries the temporal effects of sin - uncleanness - which needs to be removed - purged - before you can enter heaven.

Get ahold of Tim Staples’ CD set, “God’s Perfect Plan” or at least look at the Catholic Answers tract about Purgatory.

Forgive my formatting - I’m new to this. Also forgive my brevity - gotta get the kids to bed.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

If the punishment is not eternal, it will make me appreciate Christ’s atonement and God’s justice a lot MORE. I mean, would it be right to punish ETERNALLY people BORN into sin?

##… [sorry about the snip ]

Eternity is not time. Once in Hell - end of story. There is Hell because God is Good. Damnation is something deserved. And that definitely applies to those of us who affirm that there is a Hell for the impenitent sinner; there is no reason to take for granted that people who insist on the fact of Hell are talking of something from which they exempt themselves, while condemning others to it.

To be in sin is to be an enemy of God, to be out of communion with Him. There is not a shadow of unrighteousness for God to condemning those in sin to Hell. Our problem is that we do not know sin as it is: we do not have God’s “eyes” with which to “see” sin as He does. Jesus, Who is God Incarnate, suffered death, a death filled with every kind of bitterness, for sinners, to make an infinite satisfaction for sin. He did nothing less. God Himself must be in agony, be crucified, spat on, betrayed, denied, mocked, must be “made sin”, & “be accursed”, if sin is to be dealt with. If He did all that - such awful sufferings tell us a lot about sin; it is not ashamed to kill God Himself.

Impenitent sinners reject all that. What is God to do with those who refuse, freely, to repent ? Admit them to Heaven ? Would they be able to enjoy it ? For Heaven is nothing less than the vision of God, face to face. God is indescribably Good, Holy, Blessed, “glorious in holiness”, “a God of unspeakable sanctity” (Father F.W. Faber). Moses was not allowed to see the face of God:

18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.20 But," he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” 21 Then the LORD said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+33&version=NIV

Isaiah experienced this:

1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another:
****"Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; ****
the whole earth is full of his glory."
4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.
5 “Woe to me!” I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%206&version=NIV

They were God’s servants - unlike unrepentant sinners. The Blessed in Heaven see Him, not in a veiled manner as we on do, but “with unveiled face”. How can they endure such Joy and Holiness & Love & Goodness, if they are not “holy, as He is Holy” ? Yet what people seem to want, is that impenitent sinners - that is, people who hate God - should be exposed to God, directly, “at full blast”. But “our God is a consuming fire”; if a candle can destroy a moth, won’t the God of all Holiness, before Whom the seraphim covered their faces, be unendurable to impenitent sinners ?

 

[EnterCanaan]

How do you know that in context, eis was not supposed to be interpreted “forever” ? Are you a greek scholar?
I am studying this more, and comparing it with Daniel, which does seem to say that there
IS a resurrection of ETERNAL contempt for those who did wrongly, who sinned. And the hebrew word used there, since you can look up the many different usages of it, all mean “eternal” (dan 12:3).

Also, have you ever considered that the new heaven and new earth (which appear after the millenial reign, apparently) is Isaiah 65, and Is 65 still speaks of children being born DURING the new heaven and new earth, and it speaks of sinners? Children being born from who? The righteous who die and are resurrected after the thousand years? Those who attain the first resurrection “are not married nor are given in marriage”. I have wondered about that.

Coming closer to an answer…

Daniel,
yes we are close to an answer…

I’ll start with how I came to know “forever and ever” is wrong and “to ever and ever is correct”

God says in Isaiah and 1st Corinthians that we are to compare scripture to scripture. This is actually what I am doing here as I provide 3 verses saying the same thing. That is to compare the word of God, to the word of God in order to get the context.

Is 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.
Is 28:13 But the word of the Lord was to them, “Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little there a little,” That they might go and fall backward, and be broken and snared and caught.
1 Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

What that means is that when we read the verse in Revelation 20 in light of all the other verses where God is speaking about death, because that is what this really is right, spiritual life verses spiritual death, so lets get that out of the way, and so when we compare all that the bible has to say about the topic of torment, hell, death, and eternal, we notice that indeed the verse in Revelation 20 was mistranslated, as it does not fit the context of the rest of the bible, in other words it is not in harmony.

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night for] ever and ever.[never ending]
Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night to] ever and ever.[comes to an end]

Now I didn’t just arbitrarily change this word. In the Lexicon, which is free and available to all through many sources, we go to this verse and look at the original language. We get to the word that is translated ‘"for"ever and ever’ and looking at it I find this:

*Root from (Greek) : εἰς
Transliteration: eis
Part of Speech: preposition.
Definitions: into, unto, to, towards, for, among.
Lexicon: eis, a Prep. Governing the Accusative, and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, towards, for, among. ie: duration through a time; of the time in which a thing is done.

Now the word of God is accurate, however the translators are only men, they did a fantastic job, however here and there are little errors, this is one of them. They could have translated to word as either “to” or “for” and they went with ‘"for"ever’.

However still it isn’t up to my judgment just to change the word that could be translated either way, so again we compare scripture to scripture, and in light of the other verses we see a pattern:

Daniel 7:11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous[great] words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body **destroyed **and given to the burning flame.[to never come back]
Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were **cast alive into the lake of fire **burning with brimstone.[to never come back]
1Cor 15:26 The last enemy that will be **destroyed **is death.[to never come back]
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[Now we know that lake of fire is the same thing as the 2nd death, which is the same thing as destroyed, which is to never come back]
Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.[The 2nd death is to be destroyed is to never come back]
Rev 21:8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have **their part in the lake which burns with fire **and brimstone, which is the second death.[The lake of fire which is the 2nd death is to be destroyed and to never come back]

So very clearly God is telling us that The Devil, Death[sin], Hades[hell], all those not written in the Book of Life *Rev 20:15 which is defined by *Rev 21:8 and that is the unsaved will be DESTROYED.

This is not saying people will pay/purge their sin for a time/age until they are good with God. Again comparing scripture to scripture look at Romans 6:23

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Then look at Revelation 20:14 and 1st Cor 15:26

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
1Cor 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

There is NO sin, no matter how big or small, that is not punished by DEATH. And as we learn, death is also DESTROYED in the 2nd Death, which is called the lake of fire, which is to be annihilated.

So that is from the word of God, and purgatory is not biblical. I think that if you were to still believe that dead souls can still be saved then that is your own idea then, and it sounds good, and i like it too, but in reality that just is not what the scripture says.

 

[Dan_Parker]

I understand what you are saying, lets get a better understanding of your question, “is punishment eternal?”

Genesis 2:16-17
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So mankind was made in the image of God, we were made perfectly and given everything we needed by our creator God. Then God gives the law, the perfect law of God, He says, you can have anything, everything, however do not touch this one tree. Then His perfect creation rebelled against Him and this brought the perfect judgment of God. For breaking the law of God, man must pay the price to God. The judgment was clearly laid out, and He says, “for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”. So this is the precondition for all of mankind being spiritually dead. This is the case for all of mankind, every human being born is born into sin, and that is to be under the wrath of God, and that is to be seperated from God, and that is to be in hell.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In Genesis God already said the punishment for breaking His law is death, and here we have proof of that word as again God is saynig the wages of sin is death, this is refereing to spiritual death, which is to be under the wrath of God, which is to be seperated from God, which is to be in hell. This is the state every human being is born into, no exception, we are all born dead. Because we carry the iniquity of our original parents, their sin is carried to us, and the wages of sin is death, so we are born spiritually dead.

---

This is where we would learn about the grace of God, to save us from death. but your immediate question is punishment eternal, so we can skip this section as it does not pertain to your question.

---

Rev 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

1Cor 15:26
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Then we learn that in the end, even Death and Hades[hell] which is “punishment” will be destroyed by the second death, the ultimate destruction. To further emphasize that the lake of fire, which is the end of time, is actually the end of time and everything, we have the following verse.

Rev 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night for *[to]ever and ever.

*This verse has been mistranslated, where it reads 'for’ever and ever, it should read 'to’ever and ever. Implying duration through a time, as opposed to infinite time and is
the final day of Satan, hell, death, earth, and the universe.

*Root from (Greek) : εἰς
Transliteration: eis
Part of Speech: preposition.
Definitions: into, unto, to, towards, for, among.
Lexicon: eis, a Prep. Governing the Accusative, and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, towards, for, among. ie: duration through a time; of the time in which a thing is done.

This was a very brief study for you, I really hoped it helped. Your question was is Punishment Eternal? And we learned from the bible that punishment is not eternal, punishment is finished when it is thrown into the lake of fire. So now we see that indeed God does not continue to punish forever more, but instead ‘to’ ever more. Once Gods plan is finished, then a new heaven and a new earth will be made,

We can delve much deeper but this answers your immediate question. Punishment is not eternal, it is finite and will one day end.

I agree that the lake of fire signifies destruction. I question your premise that Hell (Hades) is punishment. Sheol/Hades which is rendered as “Hell” is the place where all dead go. Christ went there (Ac 2:31). Job asked to go there to relieve his agony, not to be punished. (Job 14:13).

Since you agree that death and Hades will be destroyed in the lake of fire, never to return, would you also agree that those not found in the book of life will also be destroyed forever?
KJV Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Don9of11]

I understand that there IS a sin which cannot be forgiven or atoned for, but that it is possible that after burning in the lake of fire for a certain amount of time/ages, that their sins will be atoned for (they will have paid God what they owed Him) and they will be released. Is this right?

Yes, in your own words you are describing, as another poster mentions Purgatory, this is the final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. Will it be a burning lake of fire, will you receive the lash? I would like to think that Purgatory is like a hospital. If you are very sick you go to the hospital to made well again. There is certainly suffering that people endure in the hospital. Each suffers differently. I know my hospital analogy has some flaws in it but I kind of like the idea, because in the hospital your family and friends can come and visit you and give you encouragement and make you feel better and yes one day you’ll get to go home.

 

[EnterCanaan]

I apologize for not finishing my thought, and that is in light of the verses saying that everything not saved will be destroyed, then when we look at Revelation 20, we see something that isn’t in harmony with the rest of what God is saying.

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night [for] ever and ever.

This verse is teaching us that the lake of fire is forever and eternal, however that is not in harmony with the other verses saying that they will be destroyed. Remember to be destroyed is also forever and eternal, that is the correct way to look at this, death is eternal and you will never come back, it is eternal.

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night [to]ever and ever.

That is, they will be tormented day and night until the last day and night, which is when God destroys the heaven and earth and creates a new heaven and earth.

Now it is amazing that the actual word that is translated can be understood as either for or to, and not many words are out of context where we can just go and change it to fit our logic, this is a very special instance where it is actually amazing. This particular word was mistranslated by the men who translating, it happens, however when we look at it, we see it is out of context when it is written as forever, and when we read it as to ever it is in context and we have harmony. What a mercy of God, for us to know that death and punishment is not forever.

I hope this helps, any follow ups?

 

[EnterCanaan]

I agree that the lake of fire signifies destruction. I question your premise that Hell (Hades) is punishment. Sheol/Hades which is rendered as “Hell” is the place where all dead go. Christ went there (Ac 2:31). Job asked to go there to relieve his agony, not to be punished. (Job 14:13).

Since you agree that death and Hades will be destroyed in the lake of fire, never to return, would you also agree that those not found in the book of life will also be destroyed forever?
KJV Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Punishment is another word for Judgment. The law of God judges us, and the wages of sin is death, that is the punishment for breaking the law of God, that is God’s judgment; a judgment is final.

To be in sin, is to be spiritually dead, to be spiritually dead is to be separated from God, to be separated from God is to be in Hell. Hell is another word for Death, it is not a place, unless you consider a grave, or a pit, or a hole a place. Death is to be in hell only because we are separated from God, it is not a conscience experience or feel, it is a very descriptive word to emphasize how much it sucks to be apart from God. It is not a litteral place. And so Death which is hell in Hebrew is Sheol and in Greek is Hades, is all the same descriptive word, and all of that is punishment isn’t it. It certainly is punishment to be eternally dead, which is hell.

When our physical body dies, if we are not saved, then that is it, because the wage of sin is death, and sense you are spiritually dead to begin with, when your body dies what else is there, and as we learn even death is destroyed on the last day.

When our physical body dies and we are saved, then our body simply goes in the ground and our resurrected soul goes to heaven to be with Christ, because He died on the cross and we are sanctified, that is to be set apart, in Christ, meaning Christ did all the work. Purgatory does not fit that context does it, and it is not in harmony with anything and in fact is not in the bible at all. All the verses used to explain purgatory can also be explained as something else more accurate and in harmony with the rest of the bible.

 

[Dan_Parker]

I apologize for not finishing my thought, and that is in light of the verses saying that everything not saved will be destroyed, then when we look at Revelation 20, we see something that isn’t in harmony with the rest of what God is saying.

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be** tormented = BASANIZW** day and night [for] ever and ever.

This verse is teaching us that the lake of fire is forever and eternal, however that is not in harmony with the other verses saying that they will be destroyed. Remember to be destroyed is also forever and eternal, that is the correct way to look at this, death is eternal and you will never come back, it is eternal.

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night [to]ever and ever.

That is, they will be tormented day and night until the last day and night, which is when God destroys the heaven and earth and creates a new heaven and earth.

Now it is amazing that the actual word that is translated can be understood as either for or to, and not many words are out of context where we can just go and change it to fit our logic, this is a very special instance where it is actually amazing. This particular word was mistranslated by the men who translating, it happens, however when we look at it, we see it is out of context when it is written as forever, and when we read it as to ever it is in context and we have harmony. What a mercy of God, for us to know that death and punishment is not forever.

I hope this helps, any follow ups?

I am not sure if this post was a response to mine here:

I agree that the lake of fire signifies destruction. I question your premise that Hell (Hades) is punishment. Sheol/Hades which is rendered as “Hell” is the place where all dead go. Christ went there (Ac 2:31). Job asked to go there to relieve his agony, not to be punished. (Job 14:13).

Since you agree that death and Hades will be destroyed in the lake of fire, never to return, would you also agree that those not found in the book of life will also be destroyed forever?

KJV Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Also, you might find that Rev 20:10 is not a contradiction for the sense of the lake of fire being destruction when you take into consideration that the word “torment” can also have the sense of going to an ignominious death. That is the sense of the word in Exekiel 32:30 where in the Greek LXX the word BASANON is used.

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented = BASANIZW day and night [for] ever and ever.

KJV Ezekiel 32:30 There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their** shame = BASANON** with them that go down to the pit.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Punishment is another word for Judgment. The law of God judges us, and the wages of sin is death, that is the punishment for breaking the law of God, that is God’s judgment; a judgment is final.

To be in sin, is to be spiritually dead, to be spiritually dead is to be separated from God, to be separated from God is to be in Hell. Hell is another word for Death, it is not a place, unless you consider a grave, or a pit, or a hole a place. Death is to be in hell only because we are separated from God, it is not a conscience experience or feel, it is a very descriptive word to emphasize how much it sucks to be apart from God. It is not a litteral place. And so Death which is hell in Hebrew is Sheol and in Greek is Hades, is all the same descriptive word, and all of that is punishment isn’t it. It certainly is punishment to be eternally dead, which is hell.

When our physical body dies, if we are not saved, then that is it, because the wage of sin is death, and sense you are spiritually dead to begin with, when your body dies what else is there, and as we learn even death is destroyed on the last day.

When our physical body dies and we are saved, then our body simply goes in the ground and our resurrected soul goes to heaven to be with Christ, because He died on the cross and we are sanctified, that is to be set apart, in Christ, meaning Christ did all the work. Purgatory does not fit that context does it, and it is not in harmony with anything and in fact is not in the bible at all. All the verses used to explain purgatory can also be explained as something else more accurate and in harmony with the rest of the bible.

What you write is held by a great many people but yes I do consider Hell to be the place where the dead go (ie grave, pit, etc). Job said Sheol was the place he would be when he died until God remembered (ie resurrected) him.

KJV Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave = Sheol, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Death is punishment for sin, to that I agree. But death and Sheol/Hell are entirely different concepts in Scripture. I also have not ever been presented Scriptures where bible writers teach that hell is symbolic of separation from God and also that death and hell are the same thing.

 

[EnterCanaan]

What you write is held by a great many people but yes I do consider Hell to be the place where the dead go (ie grave, pit, etc). Job said Sheol was the place he would be when he died until God remembered (ie resurrected) him.

KJV Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave = Sheol, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Death is punishment for sin, to that I agree. But death and Sheol/Hell are entirely different concepts in Scripture. I also have not ever been presented Scriptures where bible writers teach that hell is symbolic of separation from God and also that death and hell are the same thing.

The word that is most often associated with judgment of God upon sin is the word “hell.” What can we learn from the Bible about this word? In the Old Testament it can be found more than 30 times and is always the Hebrew word “sheol.” The word “sheol” is also translated more than 30 times as the word “grave” and three times as the word “pit.”

In the New Testament, the Greek word “hades” is usually translated “hell” but also can be translated “grave.” Additionally, a few times, the word “hell” comes from the Greek word “gehenna” and once from the Greek word “tartaroo.”

The Hebrew word “sheol” and the Greek word “hades” can be translated as the word “hell” or as the words “grave” depending upon the context. At times the context will permit either translation, which indicates the close relationship of the words “grave” and “hell.” Both words are intimately associated with death. This is very understandable when we read, “For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23), and “The soul that sinneth, it shall die…” (Ezekiel 18:20), It agrees with the concept given in I Corinthians 15:26 “The last enemy that shall be destroyed in death.” It also makes Revelation 21:1 understandable, and there we read: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea.

The word “sea” in the Bible is frequently used as a picture or representation of “hell” For example, the 2000 pigs, into which the evil spirits entered, were destroyed in the sea (Mark 5:13). When God’s judgment plan is finished there will be no more death, no more hell. Death and hell will no longer exist.

Thus we must understand that hell is the same as the grave, in that the grave is entirely identified with death.

 

[Dan_Parker]

The word that is most often associated with judgment of God upon sin is the word “hell.” What can we learn from the Bible about this word? In the Old Testament it can be found more than 30 times and is always the Hebrew word “sheol.” The word “sheol” is also translated more than 30 times as the word “grave” and three times as the word “pit.”

In the New Testament, the Greek word “hades” is usually translated “hell” but also can be translated “grave.” Additionally, a few times, the word “hell” comes from the Greek word “gehenna” and once from the Greek word “tartaroo.”

The Hebrew word “sheol” and the Greek word “hades” can be translated as the word “hell” or as the words “grave” depending upon the context. At times the context will permit either translation, which indicates the close relationship of the words “grave” and “hell.” Both words are intimately associated with death. This is very understandable when we read, “For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23), and “The soul that sinneth, it shall die…” (Ezekiel 18:20), It agrees with the concept given in I Corinthians 15:26 “The last enemy that shall be destroyed in death.” It also makes Revelation 21:1 understandable, and there we read: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea.

The word “sea” in the Bible is frequently used as a picture or representation of “hell” For example, the 2000 pigs, into which the evil spirits entered, were destroyed in the sea (Mark 5:13). When God’s judgment plan is finished there will be no more death, no more hell. Death and hell will no longer exist.

Thus we must understand that hell is the same as the grave, in that the grave is entirely identified with death.

The way Scripture (eg Job 14:13, etc) associates death and Hades/Sheol is that when someone dies they go to Sheol/Hades. But that is not the same thing as identifying death AS Hades. It makes sense that since the dead are in Hell, that both death and Hades would be destroyed at the same time. If there is no more death then there is no more need for graves (ie Hades/Sheol).

I can accept much of what you posted and it is not clear to me if you are still making a case that Hell is the same thing as death. If you are, I would very much like to see a passage where a bible writer teaches this.

 

[nineofnine]

##… [sorry about the snip ]
Impenitent sinners reject all that. What is God to do with those who refuse, freely, to repent ? Admit them to Heaven ? Would they be able to enjoy it ? For Heaven is nothing less than the vision of God, face to face. God is indescribably Good, Holy, Blessed, “glorious in holiness”, “a God of unspeakable sanctity” (Father F.W. Faber). Moses was not allowed to see the face of God:
…

The Blessed in Heaven see Him, not in a veiled manner as we on do, but “with unveiled face”. How can they endure such Joy and Holiness & Love & Goodness, if they are not “holy, as He is Holy” ? Yet what people seem to want, is that impenitent sinners - that is, people who hate God - should be exposed to God, directly, “at full blast”. But “our God is a consuming fire”; if a candle can destroy a moth, won’t the God of all Holiness, before Whom the seraphim covered their faces, be unendurable to impenitent sinners ?

(snipped the references to Moses and Isaiah)
Thanks, Gottle of Geer. I never thought of it that way before - that the condemned actually wouldn’t LIKE heaven, that it would be torture for them to behold God’s glory. Very interesting! I appreciate you taking the time to share this.

 

[Foreigner]

Eternal, Yes.

Never-ending, No.

 

[EnterCanaan]

Eternal, Yes.

Never-ending, No.

This is a very good distinction, Eternal in the sense that once you die unsaved, you are eternally dead, never to come back, never to feel or see or know and of course never ever any sort of conscience existens again, this is because those who are sinners are under the wrath of God and the wrath of God is known as eternal fire, such as Sodom and Gamora was under the wrath of God. Now Sodam and Gamora was burned under the righteous indignations of Gods wrath better knows as eternal fire. This city was burned with the eternal fire of God, as a metaphore to mean they were completely destroyed. Now is Sodam still burning, is there an eternal fire still ragin in that place as an eternal testament to their sin and Gods wrath, no it is a parable showing us that God hates sin, as He hated Sodom and the punishment for said sin, is destruction by God, by Gods eternal fire.

Now the caviet is that though the verbage says eternal, we have clear proof that indeed this fire that destroyed the city probably only lasted for a few hours, a day or two at the most, then it was completely destroyed, everything was gone. In this sense they are eternally under the wrath of God, but they are no more, they feel no pain, they don’t cry in anguish, they don’t curse God, they are dead, they are gone, they are completely destroyed forever, eternally gone.

The distinction between eternal and never ending is quite clear, on the last day, death, hell, Satan, and all sin, which is this world itself, will be destroyed by Gods eternal fire and His wrath, This eternal destruction means that they will never ever come back, it is eternal, however the lake of fire is the end of the end. In this sense hell and death and sin and pain is not forever, but until “TO EVER”

To make a further distinction, this pertains to those who are still living, because once your dead your dead, there is not second chance, there is no second judgment where they come back, get judged again, then thrown back, that is ridiculous. No this pertains to all of those still living who still face the prospect of living unsaved, and dying unsaved and then once your dead your dead, better known as hell, or in Hebrew Sheol or in Greek hades, or in america, hell. Do not classify these as seperate, this is why comparing scripture to scripture is so so important, to make that distinction, to begin to have an understanding, and of course the more you understand that less fear one has. Death, or hell, should not be feard to such an extent, because God is merciful, He would never allow a creature to suffer in agony forever and ever and ever. The mercy is that God gave us life, and we are either saved or unsaved, and the unsaved have the gift of this beautiful world as there most important possesion, then they die, then they are no more. that is merciful. For those who become saved the bigger gift is not this world, but the gift to know God in this world which can lead to salvation which is the biggest gift of all. Merciful, and not to be feared.

TO EVER means until the last day and night on this earth when it eventually is destroyed in the lake of fire, then on that day when everything is destroyed that is the end of TO EVER, there is no more, that is the last day. There is no Forever, only TO ever, which signifies an end.

all those who have died already are gone, they are not in a place called hell, they are dust, dirt, in a pit, in the ground, in complete darkness, which is the opposite of the light of men which is Christ, they are seperated, forever, The dead are gone forever, that is eternal, which is a metaphore for complete destruction, they are eternally destroyed, And hell is simply another word for death, they are not seperate things, they are colorful words explaining the same thing. Grave, pit, death, hades, sheol, hell, darkness, prison, these all mean the same thing, the death of an unsaved person. There is not different degrees of death, once your dead yoru dead, it is appointed for man to die once, then the judgment,.

However the lake of fire is the culmination of everything that is evil and sin, and that will also be destroyed one day. on the last day, the end of forever which is better know as To ever, signifiying an end.

Everything i said is biblical, it was in my words because that is how we communicate, however my explanation is in compete harmony, you must compare scripture to scripture. Of course the church will have a different idea, and then you say what gives you the right to be smarter than 2000 years of teaching, well i am not, that is not what i said, however if there is a contrary idea between the catchesism and the bible, the ultimate authority goes to the bible to clear the matter up. This is my understanding, and it is in harmony. I have no fear because i understand God is merciful, even if I myself am not a saved person, I can be comforted by the fact that when i die I will never have conscience thought or existence again, I just won’t know. like being under general anesthesa, you have no idea how much time has passed, its complete darkness, the only difference is that with God. you never wake up because there is nothing left to awaken, because God already destroyed it. In which case that is that.