Is the question of God's existence the most important question of your life?

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Your affinity should compel you to examine the defects of materialism…

What happens to the reductionist when he has torn everything down? Is he - and his intellect - also destroyed? It makes me wonder how his capacity for destruction can be trustworthy? 🙂
My affinity is compelling me to examine the defects of materialism. It concerns me that I can easily “think away” the purpose of myself and my intellect - so I am taking another look at things.
You should ask yourself what science is based on…
Again, you are voicing concerns that I already have. 🙂 It is habitual for me to ascribe everything to science and psychology, but I do consciously recognize the problems with doing this.
 
With all due respect I am not really the type of atheist you are assuming I am.
Well, it’s irrelevant if one believes just parts or even the “eventuality” of the Gospel’s righteousness and allows doubts to other parts of the Bible. Partial doubts are doubts all the same and allege Jesus a liar. What that means……… I wouldn’t dare to carry this burden
I have been reading things now and I am realizing that there were fundamental flaws in the way I viewed the world. I am in the process of reconsidering the alternatives. I am not really a relativist. I know there must be absolute truth, but “belief” requires agreement with that truth. I could agree with another truth and be wrong, and that would be that. You are a Catholic and can claim to have the truth. I am a nonbeliever.
Not to believe (what so ever) doesn’t mean it’s wrong. But we must be aware, that things we don’t believe simply exceeds our perceptivity. Simply because it doesn’t get into our frame of thinking, it can’t be untrue. Our ancestors never believed the world is a ball. Not too long later, all know it’s so. Today a majority of the world doesn’t believe in God’s existence; not too long later, they all have seen God, and will slap their forehead for having been so stubborn in spite of all there is giving evidence of God (that’s what Ignatius of Loyola said: “We find God in all there is”).
You are right to note that a lot of philosophy is rubbish. I have very little appreciation for modernist philosophers; I think that modernist philosophy is largely made up of arguments that disguise logical fallacies with rhetoric and eloquence in order to prove a desired point. My intent is to read classicists and medievalists as well.
Well - to read something else before one has read the bible - not as a simple book, but as God’s revelation, then reading secular wisdoms is a waste of time.
At the beginning of Lent I made a confession and started going to mass. For about 2 weeks I was able to pray, I guess. The problem was that the way I thought about knowledge then basically required me to frame “belief” in God as an unfounded assumption, which made it very hard to maintain. I understand practice has to be a part of it, but I’ve built up a mental framework that resists belief and writes any benefit I get from prayer as “confirmation bias.” I am deeply, deeply Skeptical (capital S intended).
Sceptic is nothing else but disbelief. The thought "well - it COULD be true - doesn’t help at all. It’s still saying; “Jesus is most likely a liar”. A mortal sin to even imagine such thing for a second.
Praying isn’t a thing one can do experimentally. On a trial - experimentally. It’s talking to God. The worse thing one can do is to “pray”: Dear God if you are there, if you hear me, then…
for this implies there probably is no God at all.
How would one expect the one and only alive God to listen to such babble of a person who even doubts His existence and makes God’s incredible charitable act of giving His begotten Son for our salvation?! Even when this Son of God, Jesus Christ, is even suspected to be a liar and fake?
No, it’s not “practice” that makes the prayer a real talk and request to God. It’s belief and love to God, and keeping God’s simple two commandments: Love to God and love to our next. These two laws embrace all divine laws - match Matthew 22,36-40
I am aware that my affinity for mathematics is just a result of my ability to work within a system. I am pretty logical.
Don’t be logically stubborn. As a student you know best, that there are many highly intelligent academics, who are logical only and otherwise ever so daft and no-one who thinks with his heart, would like to mix up with them. Literacy of the heart [possession of education] exceeds mere intellectual education by far.
The problem is that my reductionist worldview tore everything down and there was no “system” left to work with. So I am trying to pick up the pieces and start again.
It’s a great big step forward, when you see it’s reduced on logics. It would be great if all atheists would see that truth BEFORE they see God face to face, which all will.
It would be tragic if I died before resolving my (dis)belief, so hopefully God will not let that happen.
Good you know this. My son Björn died all of a sudden when he was 26 in Febr. 1997. I’m very happy I taught him the vital importance of belief. Though nobody can look inside anyone, I of course don’t know how deep he was in belief when he saw God, but a solemn fundament was laid. It’s up to anyone to erect a beautiful house of belief on this fundament, or a filthy hut. God gave us a free will to decide either way. We know the consequences and have to carry them in eternity.

Yours
Bruno
holzschnitzereien (at) krippenfiguren.com
 
Well, it’s irrelevant if one believes just parts or even the “eventuality” of the Gospel’s righteousness and allows doubts to other parts of the Bible. Partial doubts are doubts all the same and allege Jesus a liar.
No they don’t. While thinking that some one is a liar may motivate disbelief, not all disbelief is from thinking that some one is a liar. Keep in mind that a lie is a deliberate misrepresenting statement. The testimony of a person in a court of law can be thought to be honest while at the same time being thought to have unintentional errors in it (just an illustration of not believing some one while not thinking the person is a liar).

Rather than cast polytropos as some one that sees Jesus as a liar we could ask him “do you think Jesus was a liar?”
 
I think this is the most basic question of anyone’s life, even of believers, who, despite what many claim, probably have had and will have moments of doubt. Tackling this question leads to several others, including the question of G-d’s essence or nature, the reason why the universe was created as well as how, and the meaning of one’s own earthly life and one’s destiny. So yes, I think the question of G-d’s existence is most important.
In a very important, overlooked sense, God doesn’t exist – because our time-and-space-bound sense of existence doesn’t apply to God at all. We project onto God our notion of before and after, and conceive of God as an object. God is not an object. The being of God is the deepest mystery in religion – especially the mystical path, in which “God” isn’t even God.

~ Frank
 
My affinity is compelling me to examine the defects of materialism. It concerns me that I can easily “think away” the purpose of myself and my intellect - so I am taking another look at things.
The fact that materialism is self-destructive is proof that it is false!
Again, you are voicing concerns that I already have. 🙂 It is habitual for me to ascribe everything to science and psychology, but I do consciously recognize the problems with doing this.
To some extent we are products of the society in which we live but recognition of that fact can help us to liberate ourselves from its false doctrines! Science tells us nothing about truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty or love.
 
Bruno, I have not said that Jesus was a liar. I have not said that God doesn’t exist. I do not believe, but I am trying to.

You obviously have very strong faith. It may come easily to you, and that is a good thing. However I am going to be blunt and say that it might also be preventing you from relating to others who do not share your strength of faith.

I know that if God is real, and I don’t believe in him, I am going to hell. But I think we both agree that one should believe in God out of love rather than fear.

I would appreciate it if you did not keep putting words in my mouth - I struggle philosophically to believe that God exists. I am not taking the razor to the Bible and choosing which of Jesus’ words that I want to believe. I fully realize that my belief does not necessarily reflect reality. I am not reading secular philosophy before I read the Bible - I have actually read the Bible already and I have not read much secular philosophy. I think you are wrong to say that secular philosophy is not of use to anyone who has read the Bible: Thomas Aquinas used Aristotle to expound upon the faith. Also, for me, as a nonbeliever, it is not enough that secular philosophy contradicts Church teaching for me to disbelieve it - I am not going to reject it based on its conclusions alone, but if it is in fact wrong then I hope to be able to prove it wrong when I read it. You assume I am testing God when I pray - when I pray I ask God for faith. When I used the term “Skeptical” to describe myself I was being ironic in the respect that I acknowledge that I take my skepticism to unreasonable extents and habitually think of any alternatives. When I say I have the ability to work logically with in a system I mean that I am conscious of the fact that I might be in the wrong system.

Fortunately I am in communication also with a Catholic who is well-read in secular philosophy and can articulate why it is wrong, who spent many years as an atheist but is now very devout, and whom I deeply respect. I appreciate that you care about my salvation but I hope you understand that someone who has spent his entire life without faith cannot immediately experience faith in the way you do.

I will not be responding to this thread again.
 
I have not said that Jesus was a liar. I have not said that God doesn’t exist. I do not believe, but I am trying to.
Whatever is not believed, is thought to be a lie.Truths don’t have to be explicitly proclaimed to become truth.
You obviously have very strong faith …that is a good thing ……it might also be preventing you from relating to others who do not share your strength of faith.
Why would he who doesn’t want to hear about believe, about strength of faith and how to gain it, join nor ask a Christian forum then? Believers on the other side are ordered to pass on Jesus Doctrine and belief by God Himself; Jesus Christ. If our faith would prevent us from sharing, it wouldn’t be faith, but something like secular values. And - he who’s gained the insight that strong faith is good - why then doesn’t he struggle adopt it, but instead fights for his doubts
I know that if … I don’t believe in God, I am going to hell. But I think we both agree that one should believe in God out of love rather than fear.
What on earth made anyone think any real Christian would believe in God out of fear? All Christians are proud and ever so happy to know and to be with God. Fear? Nope. It’s love - not fear. “Fear of God” is the fear to loose God’s love.
And besides, Jesus never said "He who doesn’t believe goes to hell, but Jesus said “he who believes in Me, though he die, yet shall he live”.
I have actually read the Bible already ………… but if it is in fact wrong, then I hope to be able to prove it wrong when I read it
Hell tried to make great human spirits to prove the bible wrong for over 2000 years - (including the Old Covenant, even 4000 years). Hell gave all these atheist philosophers “great ideas” -but all in vain, for the truth is not defeatable. Jesus moreover so, gave us the promise, that the powers of death shall never prevail against His Church. (Mt 16,18) So, how could even the world’s highest spirit ever prove God’s truth wrong? Any attempt is not only lost time on the amount of lifetime one is given to understand, but also declared war against God.
I will not be responding to this thread again.
Obviously out of fear to bump into the truth and so see the futile mess one has left on one’s preliminary findings.

Yours
Bruno
 
Whatever is not believed, is thought to be a lie.
That’s a false dichotomy.
Why would he who doesn’t want to hear about believe, about strength of faith and how to gain it, join nor ask a Christian forum then?
There was nothing said against the sharing of faith. Being able to reach through to people some times is assisted by being able to show an understanding for a person. Not being able to do so can leave some people outside the circle of those that can be reached.
What on earth made anyone think any real Christian would believe in God out of fear? All Christians are proud and ever so happy to know and to be with God. Fear? Nope. It’s love - not fear. “Fear of God” is the fear to loose God’s love.
True Scottsmen aside, hell doctrine and fear have been used as tools by some Christians as a method to spread the good word. Though it doesn’t seem to be as popular as it once was, possibly loosing market share to prosperity doctrine.
Obviously out of fear to bump into the truth and so see the futile mess one has left on one’s preliminary findings.
Not every one is reachable through the same type of language. I find polytropos to be an easy person to communicate with. Hate to see him go.
 
That’s a false dichotomy.
You accuse the Gospel to be wrong - see here:
1 John 5,10: He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to His Son.
 
You accuse the Gospel to be wrong - see here:
Nope, I haven’t. To echo a sentiment that has been expressed once try not to put words into my mouth. I am getting to get the feeling that I am being dragged into a divisive argument. I don’t think any good could result. 😦
 
I know I said I would not respond again but I hate to see my words consistently misrepresented, and I don’t want ThinkingSapien to get caught up in something that shouldn’t even be an argument. I feel as though you are looking at the religion I have designated, “atheist,” and making a lot of assumptions about me. I thought it was clear from my posts that I am here, though an atheist, because I would like to be a Catholic but have philosophical issues that I need to resolve.

The Catholic Church does not teach that doubt and questioning are sins. Disbelief is a sin, especially for those like me who have been exposed to Catholicism for many years, so yes, I am currently in a state of separation from God. Hopefully it is worth something that I am actively trying to resolve the core doubts that have prevented me from believing in God for the last decade.

I am finding this conversation very uncomfortable because I am being told to ignore those doubts immediately because the fact that I still entertain them (even though they have been so thoroughly ingrained in the way I think) means I am calling Jesus a liar. I am not fighting for my doubts (and I have no idea where you got that idea). But I am acknowledging that, in the Catholic faith, doubts need to be resolved rather than swept under the rug. I do not want to tell myself as a command, “I believe in God.” I want to genuinely believe in God.

My reason for leaving this thread was not fear of the truth. Based on my most recent experience in trying to return to the Church, I found that taking Pascal’s wager was not enough to develop strong faith in me because I have deeply ingrained philosophical tendencies (scientism, reductionism, nihilism) that make treating belief in God as an assumption fairly ineffective. The Catholic Church does not teach that blind faith is the only way to be Catholic. I am on this forum in order to resolve my other obstacles to faith.

As for other semantic issues:
  • When I brought up fear of God, I meant fear of damnation. (Fear of God is actually, in one sense, humility, a virtue. The fear of God you described, in which you disbelieve in God’s ability to save/forgive, is the sin of despair.) You have told me in this thread that because I do not believe, I am calling Jesus a liar, and if I were to die tomorrow, I would be judged for my disbelief. I apologize if this is misrepresenting what you have said in this thread.
  • I am not reading secular philosophy to disprove God. I have been an atheist for my entire life, essentially, and I want to convince myself that secular philosophy is wrong - if it is. I am also living in a very liberal academic environment where I am certain my faith would be questioned. I don’t have a problem with this, but if it is going to be this way, I am going to make sure that I have a strong enough basis and have considered the other sides so that I can reasonably argue for my beliefs. I do not think this is unreasonable; I do not think it represents a challenge to God’s truth.
 
I know I said I would not respond again but I hate to see my words consistently misrepresented, and I don’t want ThinkingSapien to get caught up in something that shouldn’t even be an argument.
I thank you for your kind intentions. Don’t worry, I will be okay.

But I understand where you are coming from in that I too don’t like for my words to be misrepresented. Though I am only willing to spend a limited amount of effort in doing so. At some point I some times must conclude that a high fidelity transfer of ideas is not occurring and move on.
I am also living in a very liberal academic environment where I am certain my faith would be questioned. …]
I infer from this that you are relatively young (at least compared to me) and in or around your 20’s. It seems that around that age many are finding their identity. It’s a process that can be rather stressful at times. I wish you well in finding yours!
 
Indeed, you seem to be able to hold your own in debates. 🙂

And yes, I am a freshman in college. I feel like my identity changes every two weeks.

By way of analogy, I would like to add: if I am consistently getting the wrong answer on a math problem, I should not let my friend show me the teacher’s manual so I can copy down the right answer. I should try to apprehend where I went wrong and how to get the right answer.
 
Indeed, you seem to be able to hold your own in debates. 🙂
Thing is in these forums I don’t always know that I’m in a debate. Sometimes I think the “non-religious” label is being interpreted as “anti-theist” (or something similar). The expression of a disagreeing opinion isn’t always to engage in the debate. And some times it’s to get a better understanding of one’s position.
I would like to add: if I am consistently getting the wrong answer on a math problem, I should not let my friend show me the teacher’s manual so I can copy down the right answer. I should try to apprehend where I went wrong and how to get the right answer.
I would agree with you here. It’s one thing to know the answer. It’s another to understand it. Being able to solve a problem is far more advantageous than knowing the the answer to a specific problem and can better contribute to further understanding.
 
Disbelief is a sin, especially for those like me who have been exposed to Catholicism.
  1. Disbelief is **not **a sin if it is sincere.
  2. It is a sin to pretend to believe if we don’t believe.
  3. We cannot always know for certain what we believe but if we believe in truth, goodness, freedom, justice and love we must be close to God.
  4. Only those who wilfully reject God are separated from Him.
 
Maybe I’m closer than I know. I guess time will tell.

Thank you for the kind words.
 
This reminds me of a beautiful Hindu metaphor (parable). Hinduism is like Christianity, it has many different churches. A southern Baptist, for example,is very different from a Unitarian.
Anyway, one particular branch of Hinduism believes that the path to heaven is to think about God. An atheist wakes up in the morning and says,“there is no God”. At noon he says the same thing and at night also. This goes on for 50 years. The atheist dies. He goes straight to heaven! He asks God,“why am I here? I’m an atheist. " God replies,” you never stopped thinking about me for even a moment!" 🙂
 
This reminds me of a beautiful Hindu metaphor (parable). Hinduism is like Christianity, it has many different churches. A southern Baptist, for example,is very different from a Unitarian.
Anyway, one particular branch of Hinduism believes that the path to heaven is to think about God. An atheist wakes up in the morning and says,“there is no God”. At noon he says the same thing and at night also. This goes on for 50 years. The atheist dies. He goes straight to heaven! He asks God,“why am I here? I’m an atheist. " God replies,” you never stopped thinking about me for even a moment!" 🙂
👍 The sheer amount of time and energy devoted to discussions about God by non-believers is highly significant. If the answer to the question of God’s existence is so obvious it would be more logical to ignore it altogether!
 
Maybe I’m closer than I know. I guess time will tell.

Thank you for the kind words.
I should have included beauty in my list:

“Beauty is truth, truth beauty,” – that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know." - John Keats

We shall keep you in our prayers. 🙂
 
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