Is the Quran false?

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Timi_Celcer

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So both Torah and the Bible were somehow corrupted. So how do you(Muslims) know that the Quran isn’t corrupted. If God allowed for two of his scriptures to become corrupted why wouldn’t he allow the third one to be corrupted also? So if Quran cannot be corrupted and the Bible and the Torah just to contain teachings of Quran why didn’t God give the uncorruptable Quran to mankind in the first place? Why did He gave them the corruptable Torah and the Bible and then around 600 years after His failure to show the “true” teachings to people, which he forseen(He is God after all), He gave us the so-called truth and said that He made a mistake(not literal words probably) when He gave us the corruptable two books and now after so many years He gave us the uncorruptable book? Doesn’t make sense. So the argument follows:

P1: God’s word cannot be corrupted because Quran is supposly God’s word and Quran cannot be corrupted.
P2: Muslims aknowledge that the Bible and the Torah are God’s words so both these cannot be corrupted as Quran cannot be corrupted.
P3: The Bible and the Torah contradict Quran.
P4:The Bible and the Torah are older than Quran and God cannot contradict himself.
C1: Quran is therefore false.

Muslims could say that Quran can be corrupted and tear my argument apart, but then there would be the same chance that Quran is very different from the original form as there is with the Bible.
 
I believe it may have something to do with Qur’an being “dictated” whereas the Bible (both the Old and the New Covenants) were “inspired” and thereby are open to corruption. Also, according to Islam, the Prophet Muhammad is the “seal of the prophets” and thus privy to the final, full and inerrant revelations of Allah concerning mankind (as recited by the angel Jibreel) Sura 15:9 proclaims that Allah has sent the Qur’an and Allah will preserve and guard it from corruption.
 
You’re right, the torah and bible are far older than quran, therefore the torah and bible look more credible. I may not be catholic (at least not at the moment), but if I were to choose between catholicism and islam, I would definately choose catholicism and the bible over a book called “quran” which was written based on the teachings of only ONE man in the desert.
 
As a non-Muslim it is hard to acknowledge that it is the truth. In doing so, I would be denying my own faith. Except for the Baha’is, there is less reason to say that the Quran is the truth.

Having said that, i would probably say that the Quran cannot be truly the complete revelation as given to Mohammad. I am saying that because I cannot see that it measured up to the claim against the standard that the Muslims imposed upon the Quran.

Unlike the Bible or the Torah, the Quran is supposed to be words of Allah recorded verbatim. It is a recital. Mohammad recited the Quran as he parroted the supposedly angel Gabriel. In other word, Mohammad’s role in the production of the Quran was like a tape recorder. The words of Allah were recited with accuracy to the letters.

But we know that Mohammad did not write the Quran nor he edited it or proof-reading it, a normal process to verify a book for its accuracy. Mohammad was long dead and gone when the Quran was written. There were information that some verses were lost through the death of his friends or the materials that they were written on were damaged or lost.

If there is one single error or a verse lost, then it would not be what it claimed to be. The verse if lost could result in serious consequence in the message of the Quran because of its nature that sometimes abrogated the earlier verses.
 
i would place the koran, having similar origins to, on the same level as the book of mormon in regards to any truths contained in it. such truths are there by chance, not by divine design.
 
I understand that the Quran doesn’t exactly say that the Torah and Bible are corrupted. The Quran however seems to be trying to explain how Jews and Christian manipulated God’s authentic deeds. It is however modern Muslims who use the term corruption.

Personally I think it is just a cop out. Jews nor Christians mutually say each one has corrupted texts, but rather it is the interpretation of Old testament prophecies . Of course Jews,disregard the New testament all together (which i think is being intellectually honest) So be it.

Meanwhile a corruption standpoint is a pretty sloppy criticism ( without substance) Imo.

MJ
 
Reuben_J said:
Unlike the Bible or the Torah, the Quran is supposed to be words of Allah recorded verbatim. It is a recital. Mohammad recited the Quran as he parroted the supposedly angel Gabriel. In other word, Mohammad’s role in the production of the Quran was like a tape recorder. The words of Allah were recited with accuracy to the letters.

But we know that Mohammad did not write the Quran nor he edited it or proof-reading it, a normal process to verify a book for its accuracy. Mohammad was long dead and gone when the Quran was written. There were information that some verses were lost through the death of his friends or the materials that they were written on were damaged or lost.
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In terms of comparing authenticity between the Bible and the Quran, there is no comparison.

**Similarities: **
The Gospels of Jesus were not written by him.
The Quran of Prophet Muhammad was not written by him.

It being compiled by the disciples or companions of the receivers (Jesus or Prophet Muhammad), the disciples or companions are considered upright and trustworthy. Therefore their compilations are to be trusted.

Differences
The Quran was compiled by the Disciples or Companions of Prophet Muhammad, (Verifiable). No Muslim scholar differ about this fact.
2 of the Gospels (Matthew and John) of Jesus was allegedly compiled by the Disciples of Jesus. I say allegedly, because Christian scholars differ about it.
The Gospel of Mark and Luke, were not written by the disciples of Jesus. So need to discuss these two. Not to say there aren’t relevant.

Corruption

If we were assume the Gospels of Jesus were originally written by the disciples of Jesus, there is evidence that those who came after them, corrupted the Gospels. For example, John 8:1-11 In the early manuscripts this can be found anywhere, yet it exist in later copies of the Gospel of John. This is a deliberate addition or corruption. So knows what else was added by those who came after the disciples of Jesus. However Christian scholars agree that things were added to the Gospels.

This does not exist in the Quran, by scholarly Islamic consensus.

Conclusion

The Quran can be authentically proven to be from the disciples of Prophet Muhammad by scholarly consensus, by those who believe in it.
While the Gospels, no scholarly consensus exist with regard to the authors among those who believe in it. Some say it was written by the disciples, while others questions it.
 
do all sunni islamic mullahs and other religious leaders agree on what the teachings of the prophet mohammed are?

do those who are of the wahhabi inclination interpret the koran the same as those not of the wahhabi inclination?

most certainly, all of those religious leaders of the shiite tradition interpret the koran differently from those of the sunni persuasion.

would all religious leaders of islam, if submitted a list of questions concerning interpretations of various verses of the koran, answer them the same way?

do all religious leaders of islam agree on any particular interpretation of any verse from the koran?

does any living person have final authority, theologically speaking, on the correct interpretation of the koran?

my understanding of these questions is that each religious leader within islam interprets the koran as they see fit, although it seems the interpretations of some religious leaders of islam have been given more credility than others, at least by their followers.
 
Timi_Celcer said:
So if Quran cannot be corrupted and the Bible and the Torah just to contain teachings of Quran why didn’t God give the uncorruptable Quran to mankind in the first place? Why did He gave them the corruptable Torah and the Bible and then around 600 years after His failure to show the “true” teachings to people, which he forseen(He is God after all), He gave us the so-called truth and said that He made a mistake(not literal words probably) when He gave us the corruptable two books and now after so many years He gave us the uncorruptable book? Doesn’t make sense.
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As it seems nobody answered that part of my question. How can it make sense that God gave two corruptable books to people that spawned two “fake” religions(Judaism and Christianity) and one(Christianity) is currently the biggest in the world and has statisticaly more conversions than any other religion including Islam that is according to muslims God’s religion? Wouldn’t God help people to see that His religion is right not Christianity?
 
timi,

since only catholicism emphasizes and requires the faith and reason co-exist equally, it may well be that members of other religious organizations cannot answer questions that require the application of reason to answer?

it is not that they are unwilling to answer your questions, it is more that they are unable to answer your questions because reason is not part of their faith equation.
 
Timi_Celcer said:
So both Torah and the Bible were somehow corrupted. So how do you(Muslims) know that the Quran isn’t corrupted. If God allowed for two of his scriptures to become corrupted why wouldn’t he allow the third one to be corrupted also? So if Quran cannot be corrupted and the Bible and the Torah just to contain teachings of Quran why didn’t God give the uncorruptable Quran to mankind in the first place? Why did He gave them the corruptable Torah and the Bible and then around 600 years after His failure to show the “true” teachings to people, which he forseen(He is God after all), He gave us the so-called truth and said that He made a mistake(not literal words probably) when He gave us the corruptable two books and now after so many years He gave us the uncorruptable book? Doesn’t make sense. So the argument follows:

P1: God’s word cannot be corrupted because Quran is supposly God’s word and Quran cannot be corrupted.
P2: Muslims aknowledge that the Bible and the Torah are God’s words so both these cannot be corrupted as Quran cannot be corrupted.
P3: The Bible and the Torah contradict Quran.
P4:The Bible and the Torah are older than Quran and God cannot contradict himself.
C1: Quran is therefore false.

Muslims could say that Quran can be corrupted and tear my argument apart, but then there would be the same chance that Quran is very different from the original form as there is with the Bible.
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The Catholic Bible, officially the Vulgate, has not been corrupted. I can’t speak to the Torah. However, there is no truth in the Quran or the Book of Mormon or to the " sacred " writings of many other cult religions. I am surprised that, as a Catholic, you would think the Catholic Bible is corrupted. The Church has guaranteed that even the unofficial versions are free of error. Where are you getting all this?

It is not my intention to insult members or viewers from one of these cult religions. But this is a Catholic site and you must be aware that we will defend the Faith here.

Linus2nd
 
eddie_too said:
do all sunni islamic mullahs and other religious leaders agree on what the teachings of the prophet mohammed are?

do those who are of the wahhabi inclination interpret the koran the same as those not of the wahhabi inclination?

most certainly, all of those religious leaders of the shiite tradition interpret the koran differently from those of the sunni persuasion.

would all religious leaders of islam, if submitted a list of questions concerning interpretations of various verses of the koran, answer them the same way?

do all religious leaders of islam agree on any particular interpretation of any verse from the koran?

does any living person have final authority, theologically speaking, on the correct interpretation of the koran?

my understanding of these questions is that each religious leader within islam interprets the koran as they see fit, although it seems the interpretations of some religious leaders of islam have been given more credility than others, at least by their followers.
Click to expand...
We can divide both of our religions into, traditional and protestant.

Traditional assumes that our religion was been taught a certain way by men. Men are the true preservers of the religion, not books. This tradition as an unbroken chain back to the source, whether he is Prophet Muhammad or Jesus, this would be like the Catholic or Orthodox.

And then we have protestant groups in each traditional, those who are upset with the traditional way of teaching, as seek to redefine, our religion by what they can prove by way of books, this would be like the Baptist, Lutherans etc.

In traditional Sunni Islam, there are differences, but we have acceptable differences as well as unacceptable difference. We divide our religion into three, Belief, Law, and Spirituality.

And within these three branches, in traditional Sunni Islam there are different schools of thought.

Belief.

Ashari, Maturidi and Athari schools of thought.

Law

Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki, and Shafi schools of thought.

Spirituality - Sufism

We have more than I know, but to name a few, Shadhili, Chisiti, Qadari, Naqshabandi etc etc.

So what these schools of thoughts have expounded upon from the Quran and Sunnah, are acceptable differences of opinion.

Protestant Islam

Wahabism, some of them called themselves, Salafis (meaning followers of the early Muslims).

They actually branched out of the Hanbali school of law, and have Athari (style) of Belief, based on the works of Ibn Taymiyyah… They have completely neglected the Spiritual branch of Islam, all together, which explains alot of their rigid approach towards the religion. Many of the abhorrent Islam groups of today, stem from this protestant group.

So what this group and what others have expounded upon that differ from the above, would be unacceptable difference of opinion.
 
Textual Criticism has proven that the Bible is 99% the same now as it ever was. Any claim that we changed the text is a conspiracy theory.

In summary, all Muslims believe in a conspiracy theory with no evidence.
 
thank thesufi.

your last post was educational for me.

but, it raises a question also. who, within islam, has the final say? how do muslims know what is true, since there are so many who claim the right to teach and yet do not agree with each other?
 
thesufi,

it seems to me that you are right to compare islam to protestantism with its many different teachings and different leaders.

but, the RCC has none of the same issues of contention that created protestantism.
 
Linusthe2nd said:
The Catholic Bible, officially the Vulgate, has not been corrupted. I can’t speak to the Torah. However, there is no truth in the Quran or the Book of Mormon or to the " sacred " writings of many other cult religions. I am surprised that, as a Catholic, you would think the Catholic Bible is corrupted. The Church has guaranteed that even the unofficial versions are free of error. Where are you getting all this?

It is not my intention to insult members or viewers from one of these cult religions. But this is a Catholic site and you must be aware that we will defend the Faith here.

Linus2nd
Click to expand...
I do not think that the Catholic Bible was corrupted. I was just speaking from Islam’s point of view to show them how iligocial are the statements of Muhammed.
 
And i am still waiting for muslims to tell me how is it possible that God forseen that sending Jesus would be a mistake, because it would deceive SO many people into wrong beliefs. He saw that the Bible would be corrupted but He still insisted on deceiving so many people. Why? First he knowingly created Judaism and Christianity that would become corrupted(from muslim point of view), then he said to people that the third religion he founded could not be corrupted. And he failed to convince MOST people that the third religion is actually true. And He according to muslims knowingly created Christianity knowing that most people would choose “fake” Christianity over his “true” religion. Statistics of conversions of religions speak for themselves.
 
Yes. I believe that the Quran is not **The Truth **as God spoke it to His Biblical spiritual prophets such as Moses, Abraham, Isaah, etc. in the Old Testament, and Matthew, Peter, Paul, etc. in the New Testament.

Many false prophets have been predicted. They have existed throughout the ages, and will exist in the future. If the Quran is not corrupt and written by only one man, whose grave can be visited even to this day, then why would so many people not recognize Mohammed as a false prophet? It is because that is predicted too. Many will follow the false prophets and be deceived.

Stick to what the Holy Bible says. It is written by many faithful prophets who all glorified God the Almighty. We do not worship them, we worship God. God sent His only Son to forgive us of our sins. Christians do not have factions that go around blowing up innocent people – because we know God will take care of us until the End. Then we shall be in Heaven with Him.

Have FAITH in your belief in GOD, and know that HIS WILL will be done.
 
Considering we only have one official recension of the quran, whereas with the bible we have many different text types and copies that were not handled by any one authority, its a question of whether or not we believe the compilers of the quran, Uthman, are realiable.
 
We can say that present Quran in a version by one Zayd Bin Thybit, one of Mohammad’s friend who could over rule everybody else and ruthlessly promoted by Caliph Uthman.

Because other versions of the Quran were unceremoniously burnt, we could never know what they contained today other than what the supporters of Uthman tell us.
 
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