C
cyberjacques
Guest
Satan will tell you a thousand truths in order to make you believe one lie. Because the best lies are the ones supported by a twisting of the truth.
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I
inJESUS
Guest
Hamba2han, i dont have time right now to address this point but understand that even if it means Mecca(which does not), you still have a huge problem:
The text says that God came with his myriads from **several places **such as Sinai, Seir, and Mount Paran. The text nowhere claims that God’s myriads only came with him from Paran which is considered Mecca according to you. You therefore must document to us the sending of a prophet/s from Sinai and Seir with 10,000 human soldiers. If yu fail to document the fulfillment of this event in Sinai and Seir, then this will only serve to establish the fact that Deuteronomy has absolutely nothing to do with anyone entering Mecca with his armies.
H
hamba2han
Guest
"And this [is] the blessing, wherewith moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them." … Deuteronomy 33:1
If you look closely at the wording of this verse, you will see that it bears the chronological succession of the prophets of God, like the rising sun.
Came: daybreak and the arrival of the sun in the morning.
Rose up: like the light of dawn.
Shined forth: Mid-day sun which lights up the Earth from East to West. Islam has indeed come to shine all over the earth as the mid-day sun.
http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/img/map.gif
For a more complete explanation of this, kindly go to this webpage because it does indeed “document the sending of prophets from Sinai and Seir and Mount Paran with 10,000 human soldiers”.
M
Montalban
Guest
What about words that don’t exist in any langauge, not even Arabic?
M
Montalban
Guest
Like with your faith in Barnabas you’re undone by poor geography
“Paran, Mount - probably the hilly region or upland wilderness on the north of the desert of Paran forming the southern boundary of the Promised Land (Deut. 33:2; Hab. 3:3).” biblelearn.com/east2846.htm
and in Eastons Bible Dictionary at
htmlbible.com/kjv30/easton/east2846.htm
Smith’s Bible Dictionary…
“Mount” Paran occurs only in two poetic passages, De 33:2 ; Habb 3:3
It probably denotes the northwestern member of the Sinaitic mountain group which lies adjacent to the Wady Teiran. (It is probably the ridge or series of ridges lying on the northeastern part of the desert of Paran, not far from Kadesh. --ED.)
reference-guides.com/smiths_bible_dictionary/Paran_El-paran/
If you read the verses in which Mount Paran and the desert of Paran are mentioned[1], you will see that it was in the Sinaitic Peninsula, not far from the borders of Egypt. The verse has nothing to do with either the Gospel or the Qur’an.
answering-islam.org/Books/Tisdall/Objections/p200.htm
[1] Gen. xiv. 6; Num. x. 12; xii. 15; xiii. 3; Deut. i. 1, &c.; also 1 Kings xi. 18.
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thedavidwilson
Guest
Fogive me but my poor limited kuffir mind just can’t quite understand why you keep quoting the bible. Isn’t it corrupt? If the above passage is not corrupt then why is the passage about Jesus saying there will be no more prophets after him NOT be corrupt. Perhaps you could direct me to an islamic logic course so can learn this fine “art” of discussing islam.
I
inJESUS
Guest
I
inJESUS
Guest
“The Lord came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran.
He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.”
If we dissect this passage in an islamic way, it reads:
"The Lord came from Sinai =?
and dawned over them from Seir=?
he shone forth from Mount Paran.= aha it refers to Muhammad
He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes." = aha 10 thousand muslim warriors.
1- did 10 thousand muslims come from Sinai as well?no
2- did 10 thousand muslims come from Seir as well?no
yet 10 thousand muslims came from Mecca Allahu Akbar.
the same “10 thousands” came from Sinai and Seir buddy. Did Moses come with 10 thousands from Sinai?
did Jesus come with 10 thousands from Seir?
another problem with you claim is that according to Muslim sources, Muhammad did not enter Mecca with ten thousand soliders, but with twelve thousand. Al-Tabari, wrote:
“Ibn Humayd- Salamah- Ibn Ishaq- 'Abdallah b. Abi Bakr: The Messenger marched with 2,000 Meccans and 10,000 of his companions [who had marched with him and] with whose help God had facilitated the conquest of Mecca. Thus there were 12,000 in all …” (The History of Al-Tabari: The Last Years of the Prophet, translated and annotated by Ismail K. Poonawala [State University of New York Press, Albany 1990], Volume IX, p. 8; bold emphasis ours)
Besides, the passage says: 10 thousandS. It is not a specific number thats why some translate it is myriads.
“And he said: The Lord came from Sinai, and from Seir he rose up to us: he hath appeared from mount Pharan, and with him THOUSANDS of saints. In his right hand a fiery law.” Douay- Rheims Version
“And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten THOUSANDS of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.” KJV
“The LORD came from Sinai, And dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, And He came with ten THOUSANDS of saints; From His right hand Came a fiery law for them.” NKJV
“And he said, Jehovah came from Sinai, And rose from Seir unto them; He shined forth from mount Paran, And he came from the ten THOUSANDS of holy ones: At his right hand was a fiery law for them.” American Standard Version
Did muhammad come with ten THOUSANDS?
Does the word even denote human beings? lets see how Jews understood it: the Septuagint translates Deuteronomy 33:2:
“And he said, The Lord is come from Sina, and has appeared from Seir to us, and has hasted out the mount of Pharan, with the ten THOUSANDS (muriasi) of Cades; on his right hand were **ANGELS WITH HIM.” **
“But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,” Hebrews 12:22
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and TEN THOUSAND times TEN THOUSAND. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders." Revelation 5:11
These two verses from the NT that fulfills the OT (instead of contradicting it like the Quran) indicate that the ten thousands are angels that descended from heaven to accompany God, not soldiers from Medina to accompany a false prophet.
He (Muhammad) came with myriads of **holy ones **from the south, from his mountain slopes. Surely it is you who love the people; ALL THE HOLY ONES ARE IN YOUR (muhammad)HAND. AT YOUR (muhammad)FEET THEY ALL BOW DOWN, and from you (muhammad)receive instruction, THE LAW THAT MOSES GAVE US, the possession of the assembly of Jacob.
So we understand that:-
1- the holy ones are in muhammads hands
2- the holy ones bow at muhammads feet
3-the holy ones received the Law of Moses from muhammad
= Muhammad is God.
cont…
He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.”
If we dissect this passage in an islamic way, it reads:
"The Lord came from Sinai =?
and dawned over them from Seir=?
he shone forth from Mount Paran.= aha it refers to Muhammad
He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes." = aha 10 thousand muslim warriors.
1- did 10 thousand muslims come from Sinai as well?no
2- did 10 thousand muslims come from Seir as well?no
yet 10 thousand muslims came from Mecca Allahu Akbar.
the same “10 thousands” came from Sinai and Seir buddy. Did Moses come with 10 thousands from Sinai?
did Jesus come with 10 thousands from Seir?
another problem with you claim is that according to Muslim sources, Muhammad did not enter Mecca with ten thousand soliders, but with twelve thousand. Al-Tabari, wrote:
“Ibn Humayd- Salamah- Ibn Ishaq- 'Abdallah b. Abi Bakr: The Messenger marched with 2,000 Meccans and 10,000 of his companions [who had marched with him and] with whose help God had facilitated the conquest of Mecca. Thus there were 12,000 in all …” (The History of Al-Tabari: The Last Years of the Prophet, translated and annotated by Ismail K. Poonawala [State University of New York Press, Albany 1990], Volume IX, p. 8; bold emphasis ours)
Besides, the passage says: 10 thousandS. It is not a specific number thats why some translate it is myriads.
“And he said: The Lord came from Sinai, and from Seir he rose up to us: he hath appeared from mount Pharan, and with him THOUSANDS of saints. In his right hand a fiery law.” Douay- Rheims Version
“And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten THOUSANDS of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.” KJV
“The LORD came from Sinai, And dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, And He came with ten THOUSANDS of saints; From His right hand Came a fiery law for them.” NKJV
“And he said, Jehovah came from Sinai, And rose from Seir unto them; He shined forth from mount Paran, And he came from the ten THOUSANDS of holy ones: At his right hand was a fiery law for them.” American Standard Version
Did muhammad come with ten THOUSANDS?
Does the word even denote human beings? lets see how Jews understood it: the Septuagint translates Deuteronomy 33:2:
“And he said, The Lord is come from Sina, and has appeared from Seir to us, and has hasted out the mount of Pharan, with the ten THOUSANDS (muriasi) of Cades; on his right hand were **ANGELS WITH HIM.” **
“But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,” Hebrews 12:22
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and TEN THOUSAND times TEN THOUSAND. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders." Revelation 5:11
These two verses from the NT that fulfills the OT (instead of contradicting it like the Quran) indicate that the ten thousands are angels that descended from heaven to accompany God, not soldiers from Medina to accompany a false prophet.
He (Muhammad) came with myriads of **holy ones **from the south, from his mountain slopes. Surely it is you who love the people; ALL THE HOLY ONES ARE IN YOUR (muhammad)HAND. AT YOUR (muhammad)FEET THEY ALL BOW DOWN, and from you (muhammad)receive instruction, THE LAW THAT MOSES GAVE US, the possession of the assembly of Jacob.
So we understand that:-
1- the holy ones are in muhammads hands
2- the holy ones bow at muhammads feet
3-the holy ones received the Law of Moses from muhammad
= Muhammad is God.
cont…
I
inJESUS
Guest
THENNNN, we read in the SAME PASSAGE:
He will drive out your enemy before you, saying, ‘Destroy him!’ **SO ISRAEL WILL LIVE IN SAFETY ALONE; **
Muhammad said:
"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans.
Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low
Narrated Ibn ‘Umar:
Umar bin Al-Khattab expelled all the Jews and Christians from the land of Hijaz. Allah’s Apostle after conquering Khaibar, thought of expelling the Jews from the land which, after he conquered it belonged to Allah, Allah’s Apostle and the Muslims. But the Jews requested Allah’s Apostle to leave them there on the condition that they would do the labor and get half of the fruits (the land would yield). Allah’s Apostle said, “We shall keep you on these terms as long as we wish.” Thus they stayed till the time of ‘Umar’s Caliphate when he expelled them to Taima and Ariha. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 380)
Narrated ‘Abdullah bin 'Umar:
I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, ‘O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!’” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791)
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “Jews and Christians do not dye their hair so you should do the opposite of what they do.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 786)
Yahya related to me from Malik from Ismail ibn Abi Hakim that he heard Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz say, “One of the last things that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said was, 'May Allah fight the jews and the christians. They took the graves of their Prophets as places of prostration. Two deens shall not co-exist in the land of the Arabs.’” (Malik’s Muwatta, Book 45, Number 45.5.17)
If this passage talks about Muhammad, then it only says he is a FALSE prophet.
He will drive out your enemy before you, saying, ‘Destroy him!’ **SO ISRAEL WILL LIVE IN SAFETY ALONE; **
Muhammad said:
"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans.
Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low
Narrated Ibn ‘Umar:
Umar bin Al-Khattab expelled all the Jews and Christians from the land of Hijaz. Allah’s Apostle after conquering Khaibar, thought of expelling the Jews from the land which, after he conquered it belonged to Allah, Allah’s Apostle and the Muslims. But the Jews requested Allah’s Apostle to leave them there on the condition that they would do the labor and get half of the fruits (the land would yield). Allah’s Apostle said, “We shall keep you on these terms as long as we wish.” Thus they stayed till the time of ‘Umar’s Caliphate when he expelled them to Taima and Ariha. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 380)
Narrated ‘Abdullah bin 'Umar:
I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, ‘O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!’” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791)
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “Jews and Christians do not dye their hair so you should do the opposite of what they do.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 786)
Yahya related to me from Malik from Ismail ibn Abi Hakim that he heard Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz say, “One of the last things that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said was, 'May Allah fight the jews and the christians. They took the graves of their Prophets as places of prostration. Two deens shall not co-exist in the land of the Arabs.’” (Malik’s Muwatta, Book 45, Number 45.5.17)
If this passage talks about Muhammad, then it only says he is a FALSE prophet.
H
hamba2han
Guest
Where in the Bible does Jesus (pbuh) say that there will be no prophet to come after him?
If your answer is that he warned about false prophets, then did he ever say that no true prophet will come after him?
P
porkscratchings
Guest
He never said that ANY prophet will come after him, nor that there will be a prophet greater than he,or that he himself is a prophet, except the numerous false prophets who will lead people astray.
I
inJESUS
Guest
Jesus said that **He **will send prophets. If a prophet is not sent by Jesus, he is not from God.
M
Montalban
Guest
First point - please address my post where I point out your poor geography
Second point - we don’t have to limit our beliefs to the Bible.
“For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed “perfect knowledge…,”
Irenaeus - “Against Heresies” Book III.I.I
The Apostles had perfect knowledge of what it was to teach. There’s no “Perfect 2.0” (in other words you don’t add to perfection"
Jesus commanded and commissioned the Apostles to go an preach. There was in the very nature of their mission a sense of taking God’s final revelation to the people.
Third, this is the same Bible you think is corrupt, isn’t it?
Then where in the Bible did he say that more prophets would come?
D
De_Maria
Guest
It is an excellent tactic to make humans take their guard down. If people think they are doing God’s work yet doing Satan’s work, what a victory for Satan.
Easily.
Yes, when at the same time he tells them to do evil. He mixes good with evil. Muslims claim to believe in freedom while enslaving nonMuslims.
Muslims profess morality and virtue, whilst persecuting those they claim are immoral and not virtuous.
That is true, but by following the Quran’s instructions, they have established a system of law which certainly does Satan’s bidding.
But they call evil that which is good and good that which is evil. Therefore they fight righteousness and justice in the world.
Remember Scripture tells us that Satan can:
2 Cor 11:
13 For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light.
Risen up against himself is not the same as pretending to rise up against himself.
Yes, it does.
Sincerely,
De Maria
H
hamba2han
Guest
If Christians do not believe what the Bible clearly states, then why call themselves Christians?
As for my “poor geography”, I am only referring to what the Bible itself states i.e. that Paran lies in the Arabian desert and this can only mean that it is specifically Makkah as can be seen in the following excerpt which actually comes from a webpage at answering-islam.org.
Some difference of opinion has arisen as to where “Paran” actually is with some people mistakenly concluding that it is in Sinai. However, this is resolved very simply by recognizing the following four points:
- The Bible tells us in Genesis 21:21 that Ishmael, the son of prophet Abraham and the father of the Arabs, settled in “Paran.” **(And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.) **This is where he would live and die and this is where he raised all of his children. Ishmael was the father of the Arabs. Thus, we would be justified in assuming that the Arabs should be better acquainted with where their father (and them themselves) lived than any other nation, and it is a well established fact among the Arabs that their father Ishmael was the founder of the city of Makkah, as well as the one who, with the help of prophet Abraham (pbut) built the holy house of God, the Ka’aba, in that city.
- The Arabs and Jews are Semitic cousins. They descend from the same father, prophet Abraham (pbuh). Their languages, Arabic and Hebrew, are very similar in many respects since they have a common ancestry. However, Arabic never died out as a spoken language for many centuries as Hebrew did. In Arabic, the word Paran is pronounced “Faran” which means “Two who migrated.” This word is used in the Qur’an to convey the meaning of “emigrating to your Lord” or “escaping to your Lord”. This can be found in the verse of Al-Thariat(51):50. Indeed, Ishmael and his ther, Hagar, did in fact emigrate (as witnessed by the Bible too) to this location which would later become the city of Makkah.
- The Bible itself distinguishes between the wilderness of Sinai and the wilderness of Paran in Numbers 10:12. (And the children of Israel took their journeys out of the wilderness of Si’nai; and the cloud rested in the wilderness of Paran.) It is quite clear from this verse that they are two different locations.
- The Lebanese Christian, Kamal Salibi, places Paran in close proximity to Makkah. On page 215 of his book ‘The Bible Came from Arabia’ he says: “… the place in question could have been Faran, in the Zahran highlands, bordering on the basaltic desert of Harrat Al-Buqum. In any case, this Faran was no doubt the Biblical Paran”
I
inJESUS
Guest
Hamba,
what you quoted is the Islamic claim. The respose of answering Islam is here:
answering-islam.org/Muhammad/Foretold/mish1a.html
and here is the response from answering Islam about Paran:
answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ishmael.htm
what you quoted is the Islamic claim. The respose of answering Islam is here:
answering-islam.org/Muhammad/Foretold/mish1a.html
and here is the response from answering Islam about Paran:
answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ishmael.htm
D
De_Maria
Guest
Excellent!! I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything so thoroughly debunked.
Sincerely,
De Maria
M
Montalban
Guest
I note you’ve not dealt with points made about your argument; poor geography.
A
anjoh66
Guest
The Quran also gives us a challenge that is:
And if you are in doubt
as to which We have revealed to Our servant,
then produce a sura like it,
and call on your helper, besides Allah,
if you are truthful.
Sura 2:23
This challenge has been met and proved possible, check the following suralikeit.com/ but you need to know arabic to fully grasp the challenge, of course the muslims will not accept it but still the fact is there.
And if you are in doubt
as to which We have revealed to Our servant,
then produce a sura like it,
and call on your helper, besides Allah,
if you are truthful.
Sura 2:23
This challenge has been met and proved possible, check the following suralikeit.com/ but you need to know arabic to fully grasp the challenge, of course the muslims will not accept it but still the fact is there.
A
anjoh66
Guest
The muslims only see what they wanna see and furthermore they got no right to take evidence from the bible because it is corrupted as they say, the funny thing is that those prophesies they claim for muhammad is obviously not corrupted then, so what is the criteria for determine whether a text is corrupted or not?
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