Is the "Real Presence" real?

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Oh I dispute this. In my experience, I dare say the average Church going Protestant knows Scripture a lot better than an average Catholic. This may be a sad thing to say, but I believe it’s true.
Oh yeah! Maybe you are one among them Church-going Protestant who think they know Scripture better than we average Catholics. I have no problem with that.

Question: When is a sincere seeker of truth becomes a noisy-like-a-cymbal deceiver?

Answer: When he starts memorizing the bible, believe in his own understanding, and thinks he is now better and holier than the other guy- even the Pope.

If you disagree with that how come you are now separated from the faith of the Fathers?

Be angry; and sin not… Give not place to the devil.

Ephesians 4: 26-27:mad: :signofcross:
 
Thats not an argument. My point is that the Protestant bashing wasn’t fair either and all your arguments are the same against protestants. Nothing new on your side either. By the way they were real conserns for the people of the time. Much like martydom was a real issue for christians under the Roman emperors. Being christian entails christian living.
All we have done here is quote scripture why do you call that bashing.
All we have done here is to point out who the Original Church was and that it was a one time yours and you are welcomed to come back.
Frustrating as it is answering questions coming from the Cathollic side only with scripture and it is ignored when we ask for scripture response from protestants

faith definition:

The Biblical understanding of faith However, one of the most prominent definitions is found in Hebrews 11:1 which states, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”[2] In other words, faith is the “evidence” of what Christians “know” to be true within their own hearts that has revealed to them by God.[3]

such as do you need to forgive to be forgiven

To you need to feed the hungry?

Are these actions or faith no they are actions of works are they not?

An act of faith takes a work does it not?

Show me your objections and then respond. Every question asked here by Protestants has been answered but when it comes to Catholics asking questions as it relates to scripture it goes ignored or with non sense remarks and without merit.
 
I’ve been reading the protestant bashing and wasn’t going to reply, however, you’ve got my gander up. Fist there wouldn’t be protestants save for the abuses being perpetrated by the Catholic Church’s leadership. Consider the Papacy! There was a time in the Catholic Church that the Papacy was being disputed over by three people claiming to be pope. 2 in France and 1 in Italy. Think about using indulgences to raise money for a building project of magnificance. Talk about using guilt and fear for profit! The thing that got me writing is this: “what make you think your church is the real one” The fact is that the Catholic Church doesn’t even resemble what the early christian church looked like. There is a school of thought that the Papacy wasn’t preeminant until Victor pushed the issue and was realized by his successor. That the Christian Churches were “school” based and each presbyter or bishop felt equally responsible for the entire body of Christ and would rebuke the others. Ignatius was bishop of Antioch but that didn’t stop him from taking a leading role in instructing the other chruches. The Orthodox believe that there were primarily seven churches which were joined by faith but not subject to Rome. Polycarp was a preeminant leader in his day and viewed by many as do catholics view the Pope. But he was bishop of smyrna. What makes a christian who he is? A relationship with Jesus the Messiah, Son of the Living God. “they will know you by how you love one another” yeah right. Thats why the church refused people to seek the truth by reading scripture for them selves. Mass used to be given in Latin How many of the laity in Germany or England understood what the priest were talking about. Jesus changes lives. Sorry I’ve seen parishes where people lives were not affected by Jesus one way or the other. James says show me your works and I’ll know your faith. There was an Italian family that held the papacy for three generations and they live in infamy to this day!!! The catholic church does not resemble the early church either! Aspects of the liturgy carry foreward but don’t be decieved it’s not exactly the same. Having said all these things I’m not antagonsitic towards Catholics or their Church but you guys were being unfair.
Sambo I have not bashed anyone here but have not received a response to any of my challenges to the protestants that have entered this site.
I have quoted scripture and given the statement of 3 generations of Apostles.

Since the 1400s Protestants have protested and bashed.

Enough already come back home where you belong and are wanted. Come back home to the fullness of the faith, Your Church, the Catholic Church.

Your arguments with the Church are not scriptual or with traditions or with teachings but are because of pride.

I can see that when it gets tough in here to back up teachings from the protestant side of the house esspecially when dealing with scripture and there are no answers or they just go away.
 
Protestant101 you just set yourself up for a hard scripture spanking with that kind of a comment. But I will not go there, your comment goes against sacred scripture both old covenant and new covenant. If you dont believe in the sacraficial lamb sacrafice in the old or new, what type of Judeo Christian are you?

I am really druelling at your comment " the OT testament type and NT antitype will back this up easily" I am hoping you can teach me something here. Can you show me how easy you can prove using the OT, and NT that there never was a sacrifice in nature?
LOL; keep “druelling” for I have no idea what you mean. :confused:
 
Saint Augustine said that the Old is revealed in the New and that the New is concealed in the Old.

What does that mean? Well if it’s in the New that means it is somewhere in the Old.

We look at John 6 Jesus says that He is the bread that fell from heaven. He compares Himself with the Manna that fell from Heaven.

We see that in **Exodus 16 **that Manna fell from heaven.
What did the people do with that bread?
They ate it.

In **John 19 **we read…

14 It was the day of **Preparation of Passover **Week, about the sixth hour.
“Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.

Jesus is about to be crucified while **preparation for the Passover **is taking place.
What do they do at a Passover meal?
They eat it.

John 1:29

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Funny how John calls Jesus a lamb.
What do you do with a lamb?
You eat it.

When was the first Passover meal?
In Exodus 12.
What did they have to do?

Old ----------------------------------> New

1.Take unblemished male lamb.-----------------> Jesus

2.The whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to kill it.—> Crucify Him

3.Take the blood and put it on the two doorposts----------------> The cross

4.They shall eat the flesh----------------------------------------**>**Eucharist

Eucharist is Greek it means “Thanksgiving”

What do we do at Thanksgiving?

We eat.
Yes; but you don’t eat Jesus.:eek: :confused:
 
What makes your Church true ?

Give me the history of your Church and how it follows the original Church of Christ.

Convince me with history, traditions, scripture, and teachings that you have kept the whole word of Christ?
Sorry, but the true “early church” started way before the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was simply a medieval church which was most predominant in the world during the years following the apostles. That does not make it the first church:
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
You guys didn’t even exist back then.
 
Sorry, but the true “early church” started way before the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was simply a medieval church which was most predominant in the world during the years following the apostles. That does not make it the first church:

You guys didn’t even exist back then.
What do you mean by simply a medieval church? When you say back then, when do you mean?
 
Sorry, but the true “early church” started way before the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was simply a medieval church which was most predominant in the world during the years following the apostles. That does not make it the first church:

You guys didn’t even exist back then.
Boy you have been misled and brain washed by I do not know who.

Here is a list of when some key doctrines were introduced and by Catholic history.

And prior to this was the Apostles and Peter.
  1. Code:
        Having the water blessed before usage - A.D. 108-112
  2. Code:
        Separation of clergy (preachers and elders) from laity (members) - early second century.
  3. Code:
        Special days set aside for fasting (leads to the practice of Lent) - A.D. 140
  4. Code:
        Special vestments for clergy - second century.
  5. Code:
        Regional elders began meeting - second century
  6. Code:
        Sprinkling accepted as an alternative for baptism for the sick and others who had special needs - A.D. 180
  7. Code:
        Babies are baptized - A.D. 180
  8. Code:
        Making the sign of the cross when praying - late second century
  9. Code:
        Belief in purgatory - A.D. 230
  10. Code:
      Prohibition of clergy to marry - third century
  11. Code:
      Head of regional elders called bishop - third century
  12. Code:
      Constantine calls for a council, starting the joining of church and state - A.D. 325
  13. Code:
      Celebration of Easter - A.D. 325
  14. Code:
      Confessing of sins to a priest - A.D. 329
  15. Code:
      Bishops from major cities called archbishops - fourth century
  16. Code:
      Monastic orders - Fourth and fifth century
  17. Code:
      The mass replaces the Lord’s Supper - A.D. 350
  18. Code:
      Celebration of Christmas - A.D. 360
  19. Code:
      Theodosius declares Christianity to be the state religion - A.D. 380
  20. Code:
      Doctrine of inherited sins, salvation by faith only, and once saved always saved - A.D. 400
  21. Code:
      Candles are used in worship as a sacred element - A.D. 417
  22. Code:
      Worship of Mary as the mother of God - A.D. 470
  23. Code:
      Transubstantiation, the belief that the elements of the Lord’s Supper become the literal body and blood of Christ - A.D. 492
  24. Code:
      Veneration and bowing to images of saints - A.D. 500
  25. Code:
      Extreme Unction, the anointing of the dying or dead for spiritual forgiveness - A.D. 528
  26. Code:
      Gregory I became archbishop of Rome which was declared the center of the universal church - A.D. 590
  27. Code:
      Boniface III accepts the title of Pope - A.D. 606
  28. Code:
      Organ introduced into worship, but removed when division was threatened - A.D. 670
  29. Code:
      Organ reintroduced and remained - A.D. 775
  30. Code:
      Pope Leo IX excommunicated Michael Cerularius, the archbishop of Constantinople, causing the formation of the Eastern Orthodox Church - A.D. 1053
  31. Code:
      Rosary beads introduced - A.D. 1090
  32. Code:
      Sprinkling accepted as a form of baptism for all
and the adventist history oh but wait you will probably go away now for a while or dance around the question
 
Sorry, but the true “early church” started way before the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was simply a medieval church which was most predominant in the world during the years following the apostles. That does not make it the first church:

You guys didn’t even exist back then.
As both its critics and its champions would probably agree, Roman Catholicism has been the decisive spiritual force in the history of Western civilization. There are more Roman Catholics in the world than there are believers of any other religious tradition–not merely more Roman Catholics than all other Christians combined, but more Roman Catholics than all Muslims or Buddhists or Hindus. The papacy is the oldest continuing absolute monarchy in the world. To millions the pope is the infallible interpreter of divine revelation and the Vicar of Christ
The emergence of Catholic Christianity
At least in an inchoate form all the elements of catholicity–doctrine, authority, universality–are evident in the New Testament. The Acts of the Apostles begins by focusing on the demoralized band of the disciples of Jesus in Jerusalem; but by the time its account of the first decades is finished, the Christian community has developed some nascent criteria for determining the difference between authentic (“apostolic”) and inauthentic teaching and behavior. It has also moved beyond the borders of Judaism, as the dramatic sentence of the closing chapter announces: "And so we came to Rome " (Acts 28:14). The later epistles of the New Testament admonish their readers to “guard what has been entrusted to you” (1 Timothy 6:20) and to “contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3), and they speak about the Christian community itself in exalted and even cosmic terms as the church, “which is [Christ’s] body, the fullness of him who fills all in all” (Ephesians 1:23). It is clear even from the New Testament that the specification of these catholic features was called forth by challenges from within, not only from without; indeed, scholars have concluded that the early church was far more pluralistic from the very beginning than the somewhat idealized pictures in the New Testament might suggest.

As such challenges continued in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, further specification became necessary. The schema of apostolic authority formulated by the bishop of Lyon, Irenaeus (c. 130-c. 200), may serve to set forth systematically the three main lines of authority for catholic Christianity: the Scriptures of the New Testament (alongside the Christianized “Old Testament”) as the writings of the Apostles of Christ; the Episcopal centers established by the Apostles as the seats of their identifiable successors in the governance of the church; and the apostolic tradition of normative doctrine as the “rule of faith” and the standard of Christian conduct. Each of the three depended on the other two for validation; one could determine which purportedly scriptural writings were genuinely apostolic by appealing to their conformity with acknowledged apostolic tradition and to the usage of the apostolic churches, and so on. This was not a circular argument but an appeal to a single catholic authority of apostolicity, in which the three elements were inseparable. Inevitably, however, there arose conflicts–of doctrine and jurisdiction, of worship and pastoral practice, and of social and political strategy–among the three sources of authority, as well as between equally “apostolic” bishops. When bilateral means for resolving such conflicts proved insufficient, there could be recourse to either the precedent of convoking an apostolic council (Acts 15) or to what Irenaeus had already called “the preeminent authority of this church [of Rome], with which, as a matter of necessity, every church should agree.” Catholicism was on the way to becoming Roman Catholic.

The emergence of Roman Catholicism
Internal factors
Several historical factors, some of them more prominent at one time and others at another, help to account for the emergence of Roman Catholicism from the catholic Christianity of the early church. The twin factors that would eventually be regarded as the most decisive, at any rate by the champions of the primacy of Rome in the church, were the primacy of Peter among the 12 Apostles of Christ and the identification of Peter with the Church of Rome. In the several enumerations of the Apostles in the New Testament (Matthew 10:2-5; Mark 3:16-19; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:13) there are considerable variations, with further variations in the manuscripts; but what they all have in common is that they list (in Matthew’s words) “first, Simon, who is called Peter.” “But I have prayed for you,” Jesus said to Peter, “that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren” (Luke 22:32 ); and again: “Feed my lambs. . . . Tend my sheep. . . . Feed my sheep” (John 21:15 -17). Above all, when Christ, according to the New Testament, said to the Apostle Peter, “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock [Greek petra ] I will build my church” (Matthew 16:18 ), that was, according to Roman Catholic teaching, the charter of the church–i.e., of the Roman Catholic Church.
 
Sorry, but the true “early church” started way before the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was simply a medieval church which was most predominant in the world during the years following the apostles. That does not make it the first church:

You guys didn’t even exist back then.
Hey I got the history from a 7th day adventist site
 
Sorry, but the true “early church” started way before the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was simply a medieval church which was most predominant in the world during the years following the apostles. That does not make it the first church:

You guys didn’t even exist back then.
You obviously don’t know church history. I know Seventh Day Adventists. I put up with his anti-Catholic message for a few years, but I considered him a friend. How, i wasn’t Catholic and I still hated hearing the lies he fed me. Why did he give me all those anti-Catholic tapes and I was a member of the Church of Christ. Wow! How bazaar can someone get?🤷 You guys eat, sleep and breath anti-Catholicism. I learned a lot about that faith during that time. We went to lunch and shared constantly. I pray for you guys, but you’ll never make it close to my family without a fight with that belief. But I’m praying for you.
 
You obviously don’t know church history. I know Seventh Day Adventists. I put up with his anti-Catholic message for a few years, but I considered him a friend. How, i wasn’t Catholic and I still hated hearing the lies he fed me. Why did he give me all those anti-Catholic tapes and I was a member of the Church of Christ. Wow! How bazaar can someone get?🤷 You guys eat, sleep and breath anti-Catholicism. I learned a lot about that faith during that time. We went to lunch and shared constantly. I pray for you guys, but you’ll never make it close to my family without a fight with that belief. But I’m praying for you.
I am happy you saw through it and it made you stronger in your Cathollic Faith. Protestant 101 is so wrapped up in hating, disputing scripture, and Catholics that it is clear he probably has never picked up a bible or not for a long tme anyway.

May God bless him and may the Holy Spirit enlighten him to see the truth.
 
Boy you have been misled and brain washed by I do not know who.

Here is a list of when some key doctrines were introduced and by Catholic history.

and the adventist history oh but wait you will probably go away now for a while or dance around the question
Well now, I don’t dance with anyone but my lovely wife. Your descriptors such as “brainwashed” here are not too pertinent, not to mention that all 32 of your points (barbs) proved nothing about the Catholic Church being “the early church.”

Did you miss the scripture I referenced from Acts about the true early church? Are you able to produce a list of what teacings of the Catholic Church are NOT in the NT, but in so called Tradition? You should stop running away. Protestants don’t bite.
 
You obviously don’t know church history. I know Seventh Day Adventists. I put up with his anti-Catholic message for a few years, but I considered him a friend. How, i wasn’t Catholic and I still hated hearing the lies he fed me. Why did he give me all those anti-Catholic tapes and I was a member of the Church of Christ. Wow! How bazaar can someone get?🤷 You guys eat, sleep and breath anti-Catholicism. I learned a lot about that faith during that time. We went to lunch and shared constantly. I pray for you guys, but you’ll never make it close to my family without a fight with that belief. But I’m praying for you.
I would venture to say that you don’t know all Seventh-day Adventists, and how what you say is not the case with many of them. Catholics are just as anti-Adventist as they say I am anti-Catholic. It might be interesting to hear specifically just what any Catholic would pray for me, or about me. Would that prayer in effect, be anti-Adventist? Would you tell God what do do with me? How to “help” me?

I don’t agree with a number of catholic doctrines; but this does not make me “a hater of scripture” or a “Catholic hater.” Perhaps, with a good stretch; I could be called anti-catholic, but in doctrine only, not with the people.

I happen to have some wonderful books in my library, and they are by catholic authors. Three of these Catholic books are always such a blessing for me to read, time and again. Even though I detest some of the teachings embedded therein; the books are still a great blessing to me, as they help me to see Jesus. I have no trouble with the FACT that Jesus works in Catholics too.👍
 
I am happy you saw through it and it made you stronger in your Cathollic Faith. Protestant 101 is so wrapped up in hating, disputing scripture, and Catholics that it is clear he probably has never picked up a bible or not for a long tme anyway.

May God bless him and may the Holy Spirit enlighten him to see the truth.
How can you say “May God bless him” after what you said in the previous comment? My; it is so amazing what some think they can “see” over the internet with someone they have never met.

I actually do pick up a Bible, usually several times a day. I even have an MP3/digital player, so that I can listen to hymns, and read scriptures during lunch breaks. In all likelihood, if you saw me with those headphones in my ears; you would judge me again, and walk away wondering why I walk around plugged into “that music!!”

Actually, catholics that do know me in person get really interesting in regards to me listening to that MP3, but they do know me better than you. One Catholic at work recently said to me loudly, so everyone else at work could hear: “I’ll bet you’ve got choir music in that ++**&&^^%% thing.!”

You know, none of this really bothers me much; I am just expressing a little amazement at how we as people judge one another. All I know is that 'the real presence" is actually in my heart, as I walk WITH the Savior, day by day. 👍
 
But no matter who ate the Lamb, or offering, it was not sacrificial in nature or intent. it was purely an act of dedication. Only the blood was sacrificed. Olt Testament type and NT antitype will back this up easily
 
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c659smith:
you do not quote scripture I am looking at all your post as we speak. You speak of scripture ==your scripture and no one not even the protestants no what or where you are coming from for all you are doing is refuting

below is one of your way out posts
Originally Posted by Protestant101
But no matter who ate the Lamb, or offering, it was not sacrificial in nature or intent. it was purely an act of dedication. Only the blood was sacrificed. Olt Testament type and NT antitype will back this up easily
 
you do not quote scripture I am looking at all your post as we speak. You speak of scripture ==your scripture and no one not even the protestants no what or where you are coming from for all you are doing is refuting

below is one of your way out posts
Originally Posted by Protestant101
But no matter who ate the Lamb, or offering, it was not sacrificial in nature or intent. it was purely an act of dedication. Only the blood was sacrificed. Olt Testament type and NT antitype will back this up easily
Well; I have mentioned some scriptures above. Since I have still missed the mark of whatever you want here; then I have to ask that you be more specific, and tell me the exact phrase I posted that you are having trouble with.
 
Well; I have mentioned some scriptures above. Since I have still missed the mark of whatever you want here; then I have to ask that you be more specific, and tell me the exact phrase I posted that you are having trouble with.
You argue with scripture protestant 101 for you are arguing when I write directly from scripture. Most of the time. I do not know what bible you use but it is not Christian.

For instance back up with scripturre your argument that only the blood was sacraficed. Show us where you get this from?

In pagan Rome they sacraficed cows to drench themselves in blood but have not read that in the old or new testamrnt.

show me
 
Well now, I don’t dance with anyone but my lovely wife. Your descriptors such as “brainwashed” here are not too pertinent, not to mention that all 32 of your points (barbs) proved nothing about the Catholic Church being “the early church.”

Did you miss the scripture I referenced from Acts about the true early church? Are you able to produce a list of what teacings of the Catholic Church are NOT in the NT, but in so called Tradition? You should stop running away. Protestants don’t bite.
I asked you a question to give me the history of the 7th day adventists as you made a statement on the history of the Catholic Church. Now I even told ans showed you that the history I gave you of the Catholic Church was om an adventist site.

Please show me how far back Adventist go

Show me the first time the word 7th day adventist is used in the bible.

Your minister will not even argue that the bible was written by Catholic Christians.
 
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