Is the "Real Presence" real?

[MaryChristine]

As Catholics we profess hope in our salvation based on the promises of Christ, but we do not presume to claim our salvation since Jesus, and only Jesus, judges who goes to heaven and His judgment is perfect. There is a sin called the sin of presumption. It usually means when one knowingly commits a sin presuming on Jesus mercy beforehand. I think another type of sin of presumption is when we presume to judge ourselves when we are not the judges. Once we place ourselves in the judgment seat about our own salvation, it seems that we then make the leap to judging others. This is not our right. It is one thing to say “stealing is a sin” and another to say “stealers are going to hell” or “stealers aren’t saved.” It seems to me to be extremely arrogant and/or foolish to usurp Jesus’ place on the judgment seat. Jesus is God. We are not. Protestants love to say “I am saved” or ask “are you saved?” and see it as a great failing that Catholics don’t “know” they are saved. We believe and have confidence in Jesus promises if we do and live according to Him, but we realize that we are also walking through the narrow gate, and it is easy to step off the path. We “work out our salvation in fear and trembling.”

 

[sambos671]

That really doesn’t answer the question. I know Jesus Judges however, what must you Believe about Jesus to be saved? I mentioned the apostles creed. I mentioned lifestyle. In other words in line with the discussion. Must you believe in the presence within the eucharist to be saved?

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

Since belief is the verb form of faith, it just seems to me lack of faith in the true presence is indeed a denial of belief in Jesus.

So now you have no reason not to believe.

 

[sambos671]

So, Ted what you’re saying is that the Catholic Magesterium teaches that a person must believe in the presence with in the Eucharist in order to be redeemed by Jesus Christ? Is that correct?

 

[MaryChristine]

Sambos, invincible ignorance means you cannot be held accountable for what you don’t know. You are asking for someone to play judge. We cannot. What you know or don’t know is not in our purview. Only you and God know you. How can I begin to guess what your life has been about and what your understanding is?

 

[MaryChristine]

“For those who knew, there will be heavy stripes. For those who didn’t know, their stripes will be light.”

 

[sambos671]

I guess we keep missing our understandings. Let me put it this way. Jesus judges me and you based on his criteria. We have insight into his judgement based on scriptures and if you’re catholic the magesterium. In the Acts of the Apostles by Luke we find an argument by the Jerusalem council. Did the greek converts have to be circumsized in order to be christian. (how jewish do they have to be?) It turns out that the greek christians had to follow the most basic Jewish laws with regard to morality and diet. My question follows these lines. Must I beleive the presence in the Eucharist to be a “real” christian. And by the way if you read my earlier post you will find my journey on discovering the truth of the Eucharist and the Presence. ( I believe that the Presence is contained in the Eucharist.)

 

[Delta2]

This is what makes the Roman Catholicism so special and different

God is with us, the presence of God is real, we can feel it

In the other sects or denominations, there is no God present

 

[MaryChristine]

We are told there is only one unforgiveable sin…to sin against the Holy Spirit. What is this sin against the Holy Spirit? I’m not sure it has ever been fully explained. It has been said that this sin is to doubt in God’s mercy. To believe that you cannot be forgiven is to sin against the Holy Spirit. Perhaps the question you should be asking is “What are grounds foe excommunication?” I’m not well versed in excommunication but it would seem to place one’s soul on a direct path to damnation. We are extremely blessed to have the Real Presence of Jesus in all our tabernacles. What joy to receive Jesus body, blood, soul & divinity!

 

[Delta2]

We are told there is only one unforgiveable sin…to sin against the Holy Spirit. What is this sin against the Holy Spirit?

That sin is something like :

imagine you made a big sin, and you “hear” something like a inner voice inviting you to repent and go to a church…you are very attracted to that “voice” but even so you reject it, and you say NO

Imagine that a muslim reads about Jesus for the first time, he feels very attracted by that (again) inner voice saying “I’m the Lord”, come…this is the truth…but he says NO…

It is something your soul knows to be true, but your mind and body rejects it

It is God calling you and you say NO

in resume :

Is rejecting God by your mind and all your determination, even if your soul is against you

 

[NeedImprovement]

To all of us who are catholic this is a no brainer, the question was settled 2000 years ago (sorry 1975 years)!!
Gerry

Actually for the shepherds watching their flocks the night of the nativity it could possibly have been 2000 years ago - you could be right twice.

 

[sambos671]

I don’t know what excomunication has to do with my question. I don’t know what greiving the Holy Spirit has to do with my question. Scriptures are clear. Believe in Jesus, his resurection, be baptized, and live rightly. I have not heard that the magesterium teaches (or read) that the protestants who do not believe in the Eucharistic presence are no longer christian. They are not in communion with Rome. The sacraments are means by which God gives grace to empower the christian to live rightly if understand the magesterium. Do you understand the teachings of the Catholic church?

 

[NeedImprovement]

This is what makes the Roman Catholicism so special and different

God is with us, the presence of God is real, we can feel it

In the other sects or denominations, there is no God present

As Roman Catholics we believe that (apart from Heaven) God is present among us in 4 ways :

1. 
   *]When we gather together in his name [Matt 18:20].
   
   *]In his ministers.
   
   *]In his Word.
   
   *]In the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar.
   
   So other sects and denominations have at least two of these and we could also add that we are temples of the Holy Spirit. But the highest degree of God’s Holy Presence after Heaven itself is the Holy Eucharist - where he is fully and personally present - Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
   
   Do I love my fellow Christians?..Yes. Would I bow down before the presence of the Holy Spirit in them?..I haven’t up to this point. Would I bow down before Jesus present in the Blessed Sacrament (a Victim of his own love for us)?..You’d better believe it…I might even press my face right into the floor tiles if my spine would ever let me.

 

[Jimmy_B]

So Jimmy that begs the question: “what does one have to believe about Jesus to be saved?” I’ve mentioned before the apostles creed and that most protestants would agree with it except maybe for the definition of Catholic. If you’re going from a completly definitive view a protestant would accept Catholic as universal not necissarily represented by the Bishop of Rome. If protestants believe in the apostles creed and they live a life worthy of the name christian. Then are they saved?

Thank you Sambos671,

I appreciate your question and what it is that you are attempting to convey here, however I think that you are minimizing Christianity and wrongly assuming that, Christianity can be summed-up in one prayer… and it cannot.

The Apostles Creed, like everything else in Christianity, is valid only when one understands and accepts “all of it”.

I too, agree with the Apostles Creed and I pray the Nicene Creed at every Catholic Mass. I also pray the Apostles Creed at the beginning of every Rosary.

When one accepts the beliefs in the Apostles Creed but rejects and does not believe or accept certain aspects of the Apostles Creed, such as, “I believe in the… Holy Catholic Church”, the rest of the prayer is diminished.

You keep stating that you believe in the Apostle Creed as your “belief”…right?

Do you believe in the Ten Commandments?
Do you believe and pray the Our Father prayer?
Do you believe in the Nicene Creed?
Do you believe that the Church is an Apostolic Church?
Do you believe in the Seven Sacraments?
Do you believe and pray… the order of the Mass?
Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the Holy Eucharist?
Do you believe in and follow everything in the Bible?
Do you believe in Holy Tradition?
Do you believe that Mary is the Mother of God?

And so on …and so on…

You wrote, that you believe in the Apostles Creed, so does that mean that you believe in the “Communion of the Saints” and that, Saints can intercede for us in prayer?

Christianity cannot and should not be summed-up in one prayer or a handful of Bible verses…to do so, minimizes Christianity.

The answer to you question cannot be summed-up here.

The word “hope” is found in the Bible more the a hundred times, the word “guaranteed” is found in the Bible twice and it has nothing to do with salvation.

God is a Loving and a Just God. Not everyone is entering heaven.

To some who are not Catholic, it may seem that we (Catholics) do “too much”…too much to please God…Is it possible to do too much to please God?..I don’t think so.

I would rather do “too much” than not enough…and the Apostles Creed is not enough.

I hope this helps…keep growning in your Faith.

Peace

 

[NeedImprovement]

We are told there is only one unforgiveable sin…to sin against the Holy Spirit. What is this sin against the Holy Spirit? I’m not sure it has ever been fully explained. It has been said that this sin is to doubt in God’s mercy. To believe that you cannot be forgiven is to sin against the Holy Spirit. Perhaps the question you should be asking is “What are grounds foe excommunication?” I’m not well versed in excommunication but it would seem to place one’s soul on a direct path to damnation. We are extremely blessed to have the Real Presence of Jesus in all our tabernacles. What joy to receive Jesus body, blood, soul & divinity!

Delta2’s explanation seems to lean a little more towards how it was explained to me. I passed this on to one of the threads a little while ago:

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when Christ offers his Mercy to a soul and the soul conscientiously responds in a manner such as "I don’t want your Mercy…or get away from me God I don’t want aything to do with you! " Just the idea that souls can become that hardened is kind of a sobering thought - don’t you think? I’ve read that this attitude is sometimes described as “defiant irreverence” towards the Divine Majesty.

What makes that sin unpardonable is that if the person is fully aware of what they are saying and really mean it (like deliberate consent), God has to respect their free will.

So they negate the evidence of God’s saving action by placing themselves beyond the reach of forgiveness (so to speak) ; forgiveness is offered but they want nothing to do with it.

Misunderstandings of Jesus’ teaching and misconceptions of his Person due to human error or predjudice will be forgiven.

 

[Jimmy_B]

**

The Apostles Creed

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
Creator of Heaven and Earth
And in Jesus Christ
His only Son, Our Lord
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit
Born of the Virgin Mary
Suffered under Pontius Pilate
Was crucified, died and was buried.
On the third day, he rose again
He ascended into Heaven
and is seated at the right hand
of God, the Father Almighty.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the Communion of Saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.
**

 

[Jimmy_B]

---

---

The Nicene Creed****

**

We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Amen

**

 

[Jimmy_B]

So Jimmy that begs the question: “what does one have to believe about Jesus to be saved?” I’ve mentioned before the apostles creed and that most protestants would agree with it except maybe for the definition of Catholic. If you’re going from a completly definitive view a protestant would accept Catholic as universal not necissarily represented by the Bishop of Rome. If protestants believe in the apostles creed and they live a life worthy of the name christian. Then are they saved?

Hello agian Sambo671,

What does, “live a life worthy of the name Christian” even mean…your comment could have a million different meanings and that’s the problem.

Peace

 

[NeedImprovement]

Amen ! (to the 2 Credos that is.Thanks Jimmy).

 

[sambos671]

I appreciate your question and what it is that you are attempting to convey here, however I think that you are minimizing Christianity and wrongly assuming that, Christianity can be summed-up in one prayer… and it cannot.

The Apostles Creed, like everything else in Christianity, is valid only when one understands and accepts “all of it”.

I too, agree with the Apostles Creed and I pray the Nicene Creed at every Catholic Mass. I also pray the Apostles Creed at the beginning of every Rosary.

When one accepts the beliefs in the Apostles Creed but rejects and does not believe or accept certain aspects of the Apostles Creed, such as, “I believe in the… Holy Catholic Church”, the rest of the prayer is diminished.

I appreciate your question and what it is that you are attempting to convey here, however I think that you are minimizing Christianity and wrongly assuming that, Christianity can be summed-up in one prayer… and it cannot.

The Apostles Creed, like everything else in Christianity, is valid only when one understands and accepts “all of it”.

I too, agree with the Apostles Creed and I pray the Nicene Creed at every Catholic Mass. I also pray the Apostles Creed at the beginning of every Rosary.

When one accepts the beliefs in the Apostles Creed but rejects and does not believe or accept certain aspects of the Apostles Creed, such as, “I believe in the… Holy Catholic Church”, the rest of the prayer is diminished.

First of all the creed was created to be a diffinative statement of what christians believed built out of the rule of faith. And later evolved into the Nicean creed due to Arius and his heresy. And as church councils were held they tried to button down exactly what they meant ending in the Apostles Creed. I’m glad you posted both of them here. Having been raised Catholic I remembered them from mass but now I’ll work off of what you put. The Creeds were only made a prayer as a tool to remind people what they believed since most of humanity and converts were illiterate (don’t think I’m saying the clergy were illiterate. I’m saying how do you pass on truths to people who can’t read.) I’m explaining how the deffinitions convey different meanings. Most protestants I know believe in a universal church established by the apostles. They just don’t believe the Catholic church is it or has been faithful in transmiting the deposit of faith. (I’m defining now) As for the communion of Saints Protestants would say living saints the dead are with God and intersede from God’s presence and do not require prayers which are reserved for God (I’m still defining) What protestant do you know who doesn’t believe in the the virgin birth? I however do believe in the presence in the Eucharist though I didn’t come to accept that easily. And a christian who lives a life worthy of that name is one who follows Jesus teachings. Remember his teaching here: “the greates commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and mind and Soul and the next is like unto the first to love your niehbor as your self all of the law and the prophets hang on these two.” (paraphrase by me) I believe in everything scriptures says. So does that help?