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mathematician
Guest
Or at least c659smith’s version of the same.
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fellowChristian
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ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM
From 386-397 A.D. St. John Chrysostom served as a priest in the main church of Antioch. He soon became renown for his preaching and writing skills. In 397 A.D. he succeeded St. Gregory of Nazianz as Bishop of Constantinople.
“When the word says, ‘This is My Body,’ be convinced of it and believe it, and look at it with the eyes of the mind. For Christ did not give us something tangible, but even in His tangible things all is intellectual. So too with Baptism: the gift is bestowed through what is a tangible thing, water; but what is accomplished is intellectually perceived: the birth and the renewal. If you were incorporeal He would have given you those incorporeal gifts naked; but since the soul is intertwined with the body, He hands over to you in tangible things that which is perceived intellectually. How many now say, ‘I wish I could see His shape, His appearance, His garments, His sandals.’ Only look! You see Him! You touch Him! You eat Him!” -
“Homilies on the Gospel of Matthew” [82,4] 370 A.D.
“I wish to add something that is plainly awe-inspiring, but do not be astonished or upset. This Sacrifice, no matter who offers it, be it Peter or Paul, is always the same as that which Christ gave His disciples and which priests now offer: The offering of today is in no way inferior to that which Christ offered, because it is not men who sanctify the offering of today; it is the same Christ who sanctified His own. For just as the words which God spoke are the very same as those which the priest now speaks, so too the oblation is the very same.”
Source: St. John Chrysostom, “Homilies on the Second Epistle to Timothy,” 2,4, c. 397 A.D.
“It is not the power of man which makes what is put before us the Body and Blood of Christ, but the power of Christ Himself who was crucified for us. The priest standing there in the place of Christ says these words but their power and grace are from God. ‘This is My Body,’ he says, and these words transform what lies before him.”
Source: St. John Chrysostom, “Homilies on the Treachery of Judas” 1,6; d. 407 A.D.:
“‘The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not communion of the Blood of Christ?’ Very trustworthily and awesomely does he say it. For what he is saying is this: ‘What is in the cup is that which flowed from His side, and we partake of it.’ He called it a cup of blessing because when we hold it in our hands that is how we praise Him in song, wondering and astonished at His indescribable Gift, blessing Him because of His having poured out this very Gift so that we might not remain in error, and not only for His having poured out It out, but also for His sharing It with all of us.”
-“Homilies on the First Letter to the Corinthians” [24,1] ca. 392 A.D.
From 386-397 A.D. St. John Chrysostom served as a priest in the main church of Antioch. He soon became renown for his preaching and writing skills. In 397 A.D. he succeeded St. Gregory of Nazianz as Bishop of Constantinople.
“When the word says, ‘This is My Body,’ be convinced of it and believe it, and look at it with the eyes of the mind. For Christ did not give us something tangible, but even in His tangible things all is intellectual. So too with Baptism: the gift is bestowed through what is a tangible thing, water; but what is accomplished is intellectually perceived: the birth and the renewal. If you were incorporeal He would have given you those incorporeal gifts naked; but since the soul is intertwined with the body, He hands over to you in tangible things that which is perceived intellectually. How many now say, ‘I wish I could see His shape, His appearance, His garments, His sandals.’ Only look! You see Him! You touch Him! You eat Him!” -
“Homilies on the Gospel of Matthew” [82,4] 370 A.D.
“I wish to add something that is plainly awe-inspiring, but do not be astonished or upset. This Sacrifice, no matter who offers it, be it Peter or Paul, is always the same as that which Christ gave His disciples and which priests now offer: The offering of today is in no way inferior to that which Christ offered, because it is not men who sanctify the offering of today; it is the same Christ who sanctified His own. For just as the words which God spoke are the very same as those which the priest now speaks, so too the oblation is the very same.”
Source: St. John Chrysostom, “Homilies on the Second Epistle to Timothy,” 2,4, c. 397 A.D.
“It is not the power of man which makes what is put before us the Body and Blood of Christ, but the power of Christ Himself who was crucified for us. The priest standing there in the place of Christ says these words but their power and grace are from God. ‘This is My Body,’ he says, and these words transform what lies before him.”
Source: St. John Chrysostom, “Homilies on the Treachery of Judas” 1,6; d. 407 A.D.:
“‘The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not communion of the Blood of Christ?’ Very trustworthily and awesomely does he say it. For what he is saying is this: ‘What is in the cup is that which flowed from His side, and we partake of it.’ He called it a cup of blessing because when we hold it in our hands that is how we praise Him in song, wondering and astonished at His indescribable Gift, blessing Him because of His having poured out this very Gift so that we might not remain in error, and not only for His having poured out It out, but also for His sharing It with all of us.”
-“Homilies on the First Letter to the Corinthians” [24,1] ca. 392 A.D.
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Protestant101
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"MY ( LITERAL AND TRUE ) BODY AND BLOOD." has some of those un-inspired brackets inserted
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teadough
Guest
I hope you don’t take offense,but from your above statement I can tell that you have not done much traveling in the “western world”. Look,I am on TEAM CATHOLIC but I would be willing to take a bet that in the US there is twice as much,if not more, human service work going on that is directly a result to various protestant churches. I have no doubt in that. This number is probably split in larger cities but,as a whole, it is really obvious that the protestant churches are doing more than their share of community work.
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teadough
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Protestant101
Once again,what do SDA’s teach about Michael the Archangel ?
Once again,what do SDA’s teach about Michael the Archangel ?
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Chuck_H
Guest
Maybe this will help.
29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace?
It seems clear that what is being described is the desecration of the Eucharist as bread/host by one who disbelieves.
In all four Gospels Jesus loses followers with his statement that they must “eat My flesh and drink My blood to have eternal life” and the words of the last supper are specific, This is My Body, This is My Blood"
All this sounds perfectly clear to me.
I would have to do some severe mental gymnastics to dodge around it.
29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace?
It seems clear that what is being described is the desecration of the Eucharist as bread/host by one who disbelieves.
In all four Gospels Jesus loses followers with his statement that they must “eat My flesh and drink My blood to have eternal life” and the words of the last supper are specific, This is My Body, This is My Blood"
All this sounds perfectly clear to me.
I would have to do some severe mental gymnastics to dodge around it.
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thirdn6
Guest
Could you explain to me who is he that was in the church in the wilderness?
Whose church is it? Does the church mean “Church”?
How about Matthew 16:18, “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
Obviously Jesus is not talking about some ancient church or rebuilding some ancient church. He’s saying He will build His church. And He’s building it upon the rock- who is Peter. And we Catholics claim to be founded upon this rock.
So if you don’t belong to the Church of Jesus Christ but rather choose to be in a Remnant (of what ancient church?). Can you even be called a Christian?
And if you are not a Christian, how can you even answer the question “Is the Real Presence real?”?
You need help and conversion my friend…
Be angry, and sin not… Give not place to the devil.
Ephesians 4:26-27
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
I don’t see any thing decieving from these facts as posted about your true history. Just you unable to post your own history of your own beliefs, leaves me to believe these are true about your founders.
Secondly, if you think your history dates back further than your original founder from the 1800’s which was started by a Man and a woman which is unusual for a Christian faith, but not for those who take Christianity to decieve God’s people to believe another gospel, you have been given a lie. Or prove otherwise?
I think Paul warned us your types were going to infect God’s people, maybe you should measure Paul’s statement up to see if you fit this catergory of deceivers of God’s people?
**Galations 1:6
5 6 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel
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(not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ.
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**But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! 7 **
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**As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed! ****
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
What I mean Protestant101 could you please explain what is so easily to back up about your statement below, Please no cloak and run games. Laughing is not an excuse to run from your comment. Can you easily Back up OT, and NT that the lamb was not a sacrifice in nature or intent?LOL; keep “druelling” for I have no idea what you mean.
Quote from Protestant101 follows:
But no matter who ate the Lamb, or offering, it was not sacrificial in nature or intent. it was purely an act of dedication. Only the blood was sacrificed. Olt Testament type and NT antitype will back this up easily end.
TRUTH DOES NOT HAVE TO WAVER, TRUTH IS, TRUTH DOES NOT HIDE FROM THOSE WHO SEEK TRUTH.
If you find your truth in an allegation, someone has lied to you.
Peace and Truth is found in the sacrificial body and blood of the Lamb, that takes away the sins of the world.
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NDfan
Guest
No disrespect but Jesus only states eating HIS flesh and blood one time and that is in John 6. If you read John 6 you will see HE is equating eating HIS flesh and blood with believing. Not denying any presence but it’s not because of the John 6 teaching.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
“Take and eat; this is my body.”
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Then he took a cup, gave thanks, 16 and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you,
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for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 14:22
7 While they were eating, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and** gave it to them, **and said, **“Take it; this is my body.” **
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Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, and they all drank from it.
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He said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed 8 for many.
Luke 22:14…
John 6:33
For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
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17 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; **whoever comes **to me will never hunger, and **whoever believes **in me will never thirst.
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For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day.”
Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.
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Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
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I am the bread of life.
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I am the living bread that came down from heaven; **whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." **
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The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
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Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
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Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
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**For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. **
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**Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood **remains in me and I in him.
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Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the **one who feeds on me will have life **because of me.
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This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, **whoever eats this bread will live forever.” **59
20 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
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Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?
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It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh 22 is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
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But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
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And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
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As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
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We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."
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Protestant101
Guest
OK; lets get started. Take any scripture text which you say proves that Christians today are to literally eat and drink the flesh and blood of Jesus. What would be the specific purpose, as stated by the Bible, for doing such a thing? If Jesus told us to do this today, literally, then tell us why would He do such a thing?
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c659smith
Guest
why are you asking a question regarding a statement you made. You were asked to quote scripture that backs your statement. Not a hard thing to do if you believe your statement is backed by scripture.
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c659smith
Guest
Because Jesus is the Lamb of God. Pascal Sacrafice
Lamb of God have Mercy on us
Lamb of God have Mercy on us
Lamb of God Grant us Peace
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c659smith
Guest
So should we give up on what you call the meaningless prayer and ritual of the Last Sipper(Passover)
So should we give up on what you call the meaningless prayer and ritual of Baptism?
So should we give up on what you call the ritual prayer of the Our Father, the Glory Be,
Why not Christmas,Easter. Marriage, etc…
I think not and you do to.
What you want to give up on is the call to accountability.
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c659smith
Guest
Let me ask you a question is that the Catholic Church’s fault that you did not know scripture or yours?
How much did you apply yourself?
Did you bother to enter any youth group or go to Church regularly once you entered High School?
Did you find it too tough all those years to pick up a bible and read?
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c659smith
Guest
So let’s hear yours?
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c659smith
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Again I believe you do not know your version as you do not answer a simple question give me your Church history?
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c659smith
Guest
Luther was and is a heretic and there is nothing that will change that, The Pope has never said he was not a heretic on the contrary.
Luther had other pronb;ems with the dogma of the church and you know it.
Such as the end of the world in his life time.
Calling the Pope a Demon
Causing the death and destruction of people and countless relgious art and artifacts.
and the Catholic Church as powerful as it was did not lay one hand on him.
If you work in the work force go ahead and try to demand chamges the way he did. Let me know how far you get?
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mathematician
Guest
I refer you to “The English Reformation” by A G Dickens, or alternatively, “The Pelican History of the Church,” which manages to cover the origins and history of Anglicanism within its six volumes.
There isn’t quite enough spacew to type them all out here.
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