Is the "Real Presence" real?

[justinthemartyr]

The discipline of prayer is necessary for human beings. Ritual and structure is true freedom. just ask someone who has no structure and repetitive nature to their lives, but feed on chaos and confusion in their existence. Jesus practiced his religious rituals, prayers, meetings and ceremonies. I also do this. It brings comfort and freedom from boredom and worry. fear not.

As long as the ritual is not empty, but is filled with Spirit and Truth from God, then there is nothing wrong with being repetitive in prayer. The prayer being spoken of is intended for those who think if they pray for something enough, they will get it. i think every christian has been guilty of that at one time in their life if not more.

What 101 is suggesting is that we had better not tell our children we love them more than once, nor anyone else, it may be repetitive. Please don’t sing the chorus of a song, for you may get repetitive, especially at church.
I have been to over 18 denominations of protestantism and at every single one of them, we begged God again and again and again during praise and worhship to be present, that the Holy Spirit would be present etc… over and over, until we “felt” God, or thought we did. talk about repetitive prayer, for selfish ends.

 

[c659smith]

As a lifelong Catholic I have to agree with the Lutheran about one thing. Luther didn’t write a final schism in his 95 theses. The theses were tacked onto the church door as debate points as was the custom of the academic center that he was part of.
Rome over reacted (just a bit). Had the Church engaged her excellent theologians and apologists, it is possible that Luther may have capitulated points and schism might have been avoided.

Further, Vatican deputies and forces were sent to arrest and imprison Luther and only the counter forces of the German Dukes and Princes stopped that action.

Just to correct physical history.

A re-correction

On October 31, 1517, Luther approached the competent church authorities with his pressing call for reform. On this day he presented them with his theses and the request that they call a halt to the unworthy activities of the indulgence preachers. This was the posting on the door of the church. When the bishops did not respond, or when they sought merely to divert him, Luther circulated his theses privately.

The Ninety-five Theses spread quickly and were printed in Nuremberg, Leipzig, and Basel. Suddenly they were echoing throughout Germany and beyond its borders. [6]

It was then that Martin Luther was charged with heresy

Luther seldom bothered to say Mass, since
.
he was terrified of confecting the Eucharist, apparently

because he feared that God was as murderous a tyrant as Luther’s father had been, and

he seldom read his daily Office,

was troubled by absurd scruples (spending up to six hours on Saturday confessing), and

refused to accept absolution after his six hours in the confessional.

An important statement, made in 1985 by a joint commission of Lutheran and Catholic theologians, admitted that “*n their situation [that of Luther and his associates] the major function of justification by faith was rather to console anxious consciences, terrified by the inability to do enough to earn or merit salvation. . . . The starting point for Luther was his inability to find peace with God. . . . [He was] terrified in his own conscience.”

Look Martin luther utilized all the friends and media which can be shown by cartoonist prior to his excommunication. Martin Luther even raised an army in Germany and was not until then and seven years later did he have a warrant for his arrest. Luther and his cohorts later fled Germany and went to England where the tides were turned aganist him a few years later by King Henry the 8th and his cohorts. he had not only wanted to get is point across but to literaly attack the dogma of the Church and demanded immediate changes.*

 

[c659smith]

Ah as I predicted. The whole post wasn’t read. Maybe, read beyond just what you expect to hear.

who are you talking to?

 

[c659smith]

Boy you take things to the extreme. That’s not what I was saying! My point was about priorities. Things that become ritual can be taken for granted and their import and meaning are lost. Many Catholics say prayers almost robotically with out it affecting their lives or behavior. Much like the repetitious prayers of Islam or Budhism. Consider for a moment why Jesus said “And when you pray do not keep babbling like pegans for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” Mt 6:7-8 I know you’re saying I’m against ritual. Your wrong. I’m just saying Protestants prioritize the relationship rather than the prayer and that can be lost with constant repetition.
Am I saying that Catholics don’t prioritize a relationship. No, but you obviously will imply that I have. I’m saying protestants, in an effort to prioritize their life changing relationship with God, will read the bible as though God were speaking directly to them to learn and to apply. For a Protestant, their understanding of constant repetative prayer is of less value than the real prayer, talking and listening to God. In the Protestant mind this type of ritual prayer could be detrimental. You will unfortunately automatically conclude that affirming what Protestants think I am affirming the negative towards Catholics. You again are wrong. Protestants don’t make as many distinctions of prayers as Catholics. They tend to be all inclusive. I’m making a point of how Protestants view a particular issue not affirming the negative.

You asked about joining bible groups while a teenager catholic. Unfortunately, where I lived in Africa there wasn’t one (I’m not african by the way). Many “good” african catholics were busy killing opposing tribe members if that’s any consolation to you. The first real discussion I had about the bible apart from going to Mass when soldiers weren’t blocking the way was with Protestant Missionaries. On the other hand, my return to the United States hasn’t improved my perseption either. It seems to me their are two type of Catholics. The ones who really live their faith (I wish I had met more of these as a child) and those who don’t. I would have to say Protestantism has the same issues.

You seem to think I’m antagonistic toward Catholism. Again your mistaken. I’ve already said in this post and others that the Early Church Fathers indicate a belief in the Eucharist as the Body a
nd Blood of Jesus Christ. This can’t be denied. I don’t know if they thought of it in the mechanics of Transubstantiation. But they believed it. Justin Marty being the most clear about it for his time: “This food we call Eucharist…For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus. For the apostles in the memoirs composed by them, which are called gospels, thus handed down what was commanded them.” Justin having lived between 100 to 165 AD was too close to the apostles for me to believe the apostles did not teach this. Otherwise I’m sure that there would be an epistle against the “false” teaching.

So for a moment Mr. Smith let us discuss these matters reasonably without accusations.

Many Catholics say prayers almost robotically with out it affecting their lives or behavior. Much like the repetitious prayers of Islam or Budhism.

They tend to be all inclusive. I’m making a point of how Protestants view a particular issue not affirming the negative

Many “***good” african catholics ***were busy killing opposing tribe members

Now here is 3 sentences by you above how would you like me to react to them?

Should it be in the positive for you are the one making off the cuff statements and remarks about Catholics.

 

[c659smith]

Boy you take things to the extreme. That’s not what I was saying! My point was about priorities. Things that become ritual can be taken for granted and their import and meaning are lost. Many Catholics say prayers almost robotically with out it affecting their lives or behavior. Much like the repetitious prayers of Islam or Budhism. Consider for a moment why Jesus said “And when you pray do not keep babbling like pegans for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” Mt 6:7-8 I know you’re saying I’m against ritual. Your wrong. I’m just saying Protestants prioritize the relationship rather than the prayer and that can be lost with constant repetition.
Am I saying that Catholics don’t prioritize a relationship. No, but you obviously will imply that I have. I’m saying protestants, in an effort to prioritize their life changing relationship with God, will read the bible as though God were speaking directly to them to learn and to apply. For a Protestant, their understanding of constant repetative prayer is of less value than the real prayer, talking and listening to God. In the Protestant mind this type of ritual prayer could be detrimental. You will unfortunately automatically conclude that affirming what Protestants think I am affirming the negative towards Catholics. You again are wrong. Protestants don’t make as many distinctions of prayers as Catholics. They tend to be all inclusive. I’m making a point of how Protestants view a particular issue not affirming the negative.

You asked about joining bible groups while a teenager catholic. Unfortunately, where I lived in Africa there wasn’t one (I’m not african by the way). Many “good” african catholics were busy killing opposing tribe members if that’s any consolation to you. The first real discussion I had about the bible apart from going to Mass when soldiers weren’t blocking the way was with Protestant Missionaries. On the other hand, my return to the United States hasn’t improved my perseption either. It seems to me their are two type of Catholics. The ones who really live their faith (I wish I had met more of these as a child) and those who don’t. I would have to say Protestantism has the same issues.

You seem to think I’m antagonistic toward Catholism. Again your mistaken. I’ve already said in this post and others that the Early Church Fathers indicate a belief in the Eucharist as the Body a
nd Blood of Jesus Christ. This can’t be denied. I don’t know if they thought of it in the mechanics of Transubstantiation. But they believed it. Justin Marty being the most clear about it for his time: “This food we call Eucharist…For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus. For the apostles in the memoirs composed by them, which are called gospels, thus handed down what was commanded them.” Justin having lived between 100 to 165 AD was too close to the apostles for me to believe the apostles did not teach this. Otherwise I’m sure that there would be an epistle against the “false” teaching.

So for a moment Mr. Smith let us discuss these matters reasonably without accusations.

I still have not heard on which rituals not prayers you find meaningless?

 

[SyCarl]

Look Martin luther utilized all the friends and media which can be shown by cartoonist prior to his excommunication. Martin Luther even raised an army in Germany and was not until then and seven years later did he have a warrant for his arrest. Luther and his cohorts later fled Germany and went to England where the tides were turned aganist him a few years later by King Henry the 8th and his cohorts. he had not only wanted to get is point across but to literaly attack the dogma of the Church and demanded immediate changes.

Where in the world did you come up with all the misinformation about Luther? Luther never went to England and he never raised an army. The warrant for his arrest came after the Diet of Worms in 1521, not 7 years after his 92 Theses. He was protected by the Elector of Saxony. He did not leave Germany.

All this however is really off topic in this thread.

 

[c659smith]

Not all RCs consider Lutherans as evil. Any Church that can give rise to the likes of Dietrich Bonhoffer (my apologies if I have massacred his name) has saving graces. Many RC priests study and use the writings of this excellent theologian.

your last section is wrong. This was proven earlier on this forum. Please refrain from telling lies. Are you a liar or mis-informed?

 

[thirdn6]

FYI. Catholics believe that our Lord Jesus Christ came to the world to redeem us through His sacrifice on the cross ONCE AND FOR ALL.

The Catholic Church DOES NOT teach any other sacrifice. It teaches the RE-ENACTMENT of that sacrifice with the priest" in person of Christ offering Himself to the glory of God" for the sanctification of His members- the church. For He is a Priest FOREVER to the order of Melchisedec. (Other Catholics can explain this better.)

What is “diluting” to our faith are some strange teachings and doctrines that are coming from insincere seekers of truth and deceivers. Far from what we learned from holy traditions and teachings of early church fathers.

Is there any prayer in this world that can not be repeated… at all?

---

Be angry, and sin not… Give not place to the devil.
Ephesians 4:26-27 +

 

[c659smith]

Luther was not a “heretic;” unless you ask a Catholic. He was a fine Christian gentleman whose only sin was to go against Catholic teachings. If you want to start on "Christians " “causing the death and destruction of people,” then you had better look out your own Church’s back door first.

There are too many questions about the Catholic Mass, and all this changing of bread to Jesus’ flesh. Perhaps, the “heretics” are really in your own back yard?

Rome says that when her priests break the communion bread, this is an actual reenactment of the very Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

**PART 2, SECTION 2 2, CHAPTER 1 1, ARTICLE 3, SUBSECTION 5, HEADING 4 **

1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: “Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.” 206

**1377 **The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ. 207

1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. “The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession.” 208

1379 The tabernacle was first intended for the reservation of the Eucharist in a worthy place so that it could be brought to the sick and those absent outside of Mass. As faith in the real presence of Christ in his Eucharist deepened, the Church became conscious of the meaning of silent adoration of the Lord present under the Eucharistic species. It is for this reason that the tabernacle should be located in an especially worthy place in the church and should be constructed in such a way that it emphasizes and manifests the truth of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.

**1380 **It is highly fitting that Christ should have wanted to remain present to his Church in this unique way. Since Christ was about to take his departure from his own in his visible form, he wanted to give us his sacramental presence; since he was about to offer himself on the cross to save us, he wanted us to have the memorial of the love with which he loved us “to the end,” 209 even to the giving of his life. In his Eucharistic presence he remains mysteriously in our midst as the one who loved us and gave himself up for us, 210 and he remains under signs that express and communicate this love:

The Church and the world have a great need for Eucharistic worship. Jesus awaits us in this sacrament of love. Let us not refuse the time to go to meet him in adoration, in contemplation full of faith, and open to making amends for the serious offenses and crimes of the world. Let our adoration never cease. 211

1381 “That in this sacrament are the true Body of Christ and his true Blood is something that ‘cannot be apprehended by the senses,’ says St. Thomas, ‘but only by faith, which relies on divine authority.’ For this reason, in a commentary on Luke 22:19 (‘This is my body which is given for you.’), St. Cyril says: ‘Do not doubt whether this is true, but rather receive the words of the Savior in faith, for since he is the truth, he cannot lie.’”

Is this Catholic teaching on “transubstantiation” truth or a fable? How can we find out?

Only by the written Word. The book of Hebrews is clear on this. Paul wrote about “the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” Heb. 10:10. “But this Man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God” (vs. 12).

“For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified” (vs. 14). Thus the Bible is clear. There is only one Sacrifice, and it occurred on the cross.

Christians should put their total faith in what Jesus has already done two thousand years ago. Any teaching about another sacrifice is really a denial and a diluting of what Jesus Christ has already done “once for all” (Heb. 10:10) and represents a diversion away from the fulness of Christ’s love and truth.

There literally is something wrong with the way your mind works.

1st the bibles states there were many sacrafices and no one is sacraficing Jesus over and over again. Youo are totally confused.

And Hebrews that you quote is correct and your point?

 

[c659smith]

Luther was not a “heretic;” unless you ask a Catholic. He was a fine Christian gentleman whose only sin was to go against Catholic teachings. If you want to start on "Christians " “causing the death and destruction of people,” then you had better look out your own Church’s back door first.

There are too many questions about the Catholic Mass, and all this changing of bread to Jesus’ flesh. Perhaps, the “heretics” are really in your own back yard?

Rome says that when her priests break the communion bread, this is an actual reenactment of the very Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

**PART 2, SECTION 2 2, CHAPTER 1 1, ARTICLE 3, SUBSECTION 5, HEADING 4 **

1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: “Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.” 206

**1377 **The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ. 207

1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. “The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession.” 208

1379 The tabernacle was first intended for the reservation of the Eucharist in a worthy place so that it could be brought to the sick and those absent outside of Mass. As faith in the real presence of Christ in his Eucharist deepened, the Church became conscious of the meaning of silent adoration of the Lord present under the Eucharistic species. It is for this reason that the tabernacle should be located in an especially worthy place in the church and should be constructed in such a way that it emphasizes and manifests the truth of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.

**1380 **It is highly fitting that Christ should have wanted to remain present to his Church in this unique way. Since Christ was about to take his departure from his own in his visible form, he wanted to give us his sacramental presence; since he was about to offer himself on the cross to save us, he wanted us to have the memorial of the love with which he loved us “to the end,” 209 even to the giving of his life. In his Eucharistic presence he remains mysteriously in our midst as the one who loved us and gave himself up for us, 210 and he remains under signs that express and communicate this love:

The Church and the world have a great need for Eucharistic worship. Jesus awaits us in this sacrament of love. Let us not refuse the time to go to meet him in adoration, in contemplation full of faith, and open to making amends for the serious offenses and crimes of the world. Let our adoration never cease. 211

1381 “That in this sacrament are the true Body of Christ and his true Blood is something that ‘cannot be apprehended by the senses,’ says St. Thomas, ‘but only by faith, which relies on divine authority.’ For this reason, in a commentary on Luke 22:19 (‘This is my body which is given for you.’), St. Cyril says: ‘Do not doubt whether this is true, but rather receive the words of the Savior in faith, for since he is the truth, he cannot lie.’”

Is this Catholic teaching on “transubstantiation” truth or a fable? How can we find out?

Only by the written Word. The book of Hebrews is clear on this. Paul wrote about “the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” Heb. 10:10. “But this Man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God” (vs. 12).

“For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified” (vs. 14). Thus the Bible is clear. There is only one Sacrifice, and it occurred on the cross.

Christians should put their total faith in what Jesus has already done two thousand years ago. Any teaching about another sacrifice is really a denial and a diluting of what Jesus Christ has already done “once for all” (Heb. 10:10) and represents a diversion away from the fulness of Christ’s love and truth.

Yes 1.2 billion do call Luther a heretic and your point is?

For again I know you are confused but you first must be a Catholic to become a heretic?

Do you understand.

 

[c659smith]

Not all RCs consider Lutherans as evil. Any Church that can give rise to the likes of Dietrich Bonhoffer (my apologies if I have massacred his name) has saving graces. Many RC priests study and use the writings of this excellent theologian.

the bottom of this post was meant for the one that continues to say that the Pope has declared Luther not a heretic.

 

[sambos671]

who are you talking to?

I was responding to this:

that’s not true. Catholics hold the prayers with upmost respect due to the mere fact of the history behind them. Sure there are plenty who do not feel this way.

Also,

Now here is 3 sentences by you above how would you like me to react to them?

Should it be in the positive for you are the one making off the cuff statements and remarks about Catholics.

Is no different from “cuff” statements about Protestants. Keep in mind I said “many” not all or even most. And you’re still missing the point. I’m not against ritual. Or even repetative prayer. I’m expressing how Protestants think about them and how they can (not necissarily will) become meaningless. Don’t forget I also acknowledge that Protestants don’t distinguish levels and types of devotions as do catholics and lump them into a single concept. You may respond to the 3 sentences as you wish but keep in mind that 1) I put “good” in quotation marks for a reason (not because I think they’re good or even faithful catholics though they go to mass). 2) The term “many” was used not all or most (the same could be said of any religious group) and 3) well I’m not sure about 3. Just I hope you understand what I’m saying about the not affirming the negative. Which is saying that because I Protestants believe ritual prayer may lead to meaningless babbling doesn’t also mean that I believe that there are Catholics who practice these prayers are not benefited from it for their meditations.

 

[sambos671]

Originally Posted by c659smith
Look Martin luther utilized all the friends and media which can be shown by cartoonist prior to his excommunication. Martin Luther even raised an army in Germany and was not until then and seven years later did he have a warrant for his arrest. Luther and his cohorts later fled Germany and went to England where the tides were turned aganist him a few years later by King Henry the 8th and his cohorts. he had not only wanted to get is point across but to literaly attack the dogma of the Church and demanded immediate changes.

By the way this statement seems to be revisionist history about Luther. It is kind of like what Jack Chick was doing about giving false information about the Catholic Church. In your case is Lutheran. See how it goes both ways. Not profitable in peaceable debate

 

[c659smith]

By the way this statement seems to be revisionist history about Luther. It is kind of like what Jack Chick was doing about giving false information about the Catholic Church. In your case is Lutheran. See how it goes both ways. Not profitable in peaceable debate

No the info. I gave is from wikipedia a definitely secular site.
I would not do that here. I have given nothing false if you can prove me wrong I welcome the insight but prove it with documentation from a secular source so it is unbiased.

Look Luther is a heretic but Lutherans are not for they have not belonged to the Catholic Church and definitely not a priest.

Priest do not usually convert to Lutherism but there are numerous Lutheran Ministers that convert to Catholism.

On EWTN Mr. Brodi (probably spelled wrong) heads a show called welcome Home. A past Lutheran Minister.

It would not be productive for me to give you or any one else lies for my goal on this site is to get some to return home to the Catholic Church.

 

[c659smith]

I was responding to this:

Also,

Is no different from “cuff” statements about Protestants. Keep in mind I said “many” not all or even most. And you’re still missing the point. I’m not against ritual. Or even repetative prayer. I’m expressing how Protestants think about them and how they can (not necissarily will) become meaningless. Don’t forget I also acknowledge that Protestants don’t distinguish levels and types of devotions as do catholics and lump them into a single concept. You may respond to the 3 sentences as you wish but keep in mind that 1) I put “good” in quotation marks for a reason (not because I think they’re good or even faithful catholics though they go to mass). 2) The term “many” was used not all or most (the same could be said of any religious group) and 3) well I’m not sure about 3. Just I hope you understand what I’m saying about the not affirming the negative. Which is saying that because I Protestants believe ritual prayer may lead to meaningless babbling doesn’t also mean that I believe that there are Catholics who practice these prayers are not benefited from it for their meditations.

Look you are stumbling all over yourself. I for one am not sensitive but will not stand by and get attacked that I have lied or purposely contorted the truth.

I am neither an idiot when you say many and most Catholics and use a statement in the same sentence as (Protestants) not many, not most but just Protestants meaning all.

When you speak of Africa are you talking of Muslims killing Christians and Christians killing Muslims or are you speaking of thugs? Why would I not bring up King James and his killing of Catholics and priests? I could bring up any number of horrendous acts by protestants so I do not get your point about bringing up Africa but I’ll play but do not be surprised when I bring it up and prove that protestants not Catholics probably beat out Muslims with most of the killing in the name of Religion in the last 500 years.

 

[Protestant101]

The discipline of prayer is necessary for human beings. Ritual and structure is true freedom. just ask someone who has no structure and repetitive nature to their lives, but feed on chaos and confusion in their existence. Jesus practiced his religious rituals, prayers, meetings and ceremonies. I also do this. It brings comfort and freedom from boredom and worry. fear not.

As long as the ritual is not empty, but is filled with Spirit and Truth from God, then there is nothing wrong with being repetitive in prayer. The prayer being spoken of is intended for those who think if they pray for something enough, they will get it. i think every christian has been guilty of that at one time in their life if not more.

What 101 is suggesting is that we had better not tell our children we love them more than once, nor anyone else, it may be repetitive. Please don’t sing the chorus of a song, for you may get repetitive, especially at church.
I have been to over 18 denominations of protestantism and at every single one of them, we begged God again and again and again during praise and worhship to be present, that the Holy Spirit would be present etc… over and over, until we “felt” God, or thought we did. talk about repetitive prayer, for selfish ends.

You must be confusing me with another poster. I did not say anything about “repetition.”

 

[sambos671]

My point about bringing up africa was in responce to your question as to why I did not attend a catholic bible study or get involved in some catholic group. I was just mentioning that we did not have the things you have here. It wasn’t available. Note that not all of Africa is not Muslim. I grew up in a predominantly christian part of Africa - Uganda - Burundi - Rwanda - Kenya. There are moslems doing what you said but there are christians doing similar things. I would not consider them real christians because their lives don’t reflect it. **For me the real measure of a person’s faith is their life styles **an my point was I originally first saw that in Protestant Missionaries. Though I was surrounded by Catholics. I hope you get it. Keep in mind in Uganda there is this beautiful shrine to young Ugandan Catholic Martyrs that died quite awhile ago. (Not that this statement of of spiritual significant issue).

Also many and most are not the same thing. I don’t presume to know what most catholics are doing or how they practice their belief. I can only come from my experiences in my own family and those catholics I’ve encountered. If I said most it was a mistake or I meant it most of thoses I’ve encountered.

Wikipedia is known for having inaccuracies. Actually you would do better at a Catholic encyclopedia site or an academic site.

Though we seem to be at odds 659smith in regards to protestant thoughts and catholic experiences the truth is I’m actually on your side about the Eucharist. It’s something I’ve recently discovered through my own study of the early church fathers and reading their writings. Look. I originially got carried away for the things said about protestants that were blanket statements and not necissarily true. So I added my two cents. The truth is there are many statements that are miscommunicated between Catholics and Protestants because of definition. Though were all speaking english it seems to me we’re not using the same language. I’m not one of those protestants who say catholics aren’t christian neither will I allow Catholics to say protestants aren’t christian. The fundamental difference in beliefs is this: Authority. Catholics from Church tradition (which is broken down into Oral tradition - deposit of faith; Dogma - built off of the deposit - ect.) and scripture which is understood in light of church tradition. Protestant authority comes from scriptures. This is the core to all discussions between Catholics and Protestants.

 

[Protestant101]

When you speak of Africa are you talking of Muslims killing Christians and Christians killing Muslims or are you speaking of thugs? Why would I not bring up King James and his killing of Catholics and priests? I could bring up any number of horrendous acts by protestants so I do not get your point about bringing up Africa but I’ll play but do not be surprised when I bring it up and prove that protestants not Catholics probably beat out Muslims with most of the killing in the name of Religion in the last 500 years.

What is your point here?

 

[teadough]

Ah as I predicted. The whole post wasn’t read. Maybe, read beyond just what you expect to hear.

so you predicted that a ridiculous statement where you compared
Islamic&Buddhist prayers to Catholic prayers and called them “robotic” would throw people off and make them respond to you in a negative way? Wow!! You are a psychic. How did you pull that off? Thats amazing!!! I guess that was supposed to be taken tongue in cheek and we should pat you on the back because at the end of your post you just happen to say that the real presence of Christ may be apparent? Or is it towards the end of your statement on repetition where you try to be cute and cover yourself by stating

Am I saying that Catholics don’t prioritize a relationship. No, but you obviously will imply that I have.

Or was it the part of your post where you said

Many “good” african catholics were busy killing opposing tribe members if that’s any consolation to you

.

Maybe that is the part I am confused about and should maybe just realize that you were being silly and practicing your psychic powers to see if anyone would “read beyond just what you expect to hear.”.

You’re right. I did not expect to hear that “good African Catholics” were killing people.

God Bless you and may Christ Direct your paths

 

[justinthemartyr]

If we want to talk about the offenses that christians have done over the ages, please do so in another thread. this thread is concerning the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

If Jesus is not truly and substantially present in the Eucharist, then i am sure that this was the actual teaching of the church in every age. please identify the Church teaching in every age that says Jesus is not truly and actually present, His flesh and blood(glorified) in the Eucharist. Please provide sources for your information. I am not asking for scripture, i am asking for the members of the church teaching this in every century, from the beginning to the present. Not just post reformation writings. After all, if this were the teaching, it would be unanimous.