Is the "Real Presence" real?

[NeedImprovement]

I’m Catholic and I constantly struggle with the real meaning of the Eucharist (as I think many do). I constantly pray on it and ask God for guidance. I do know Jesus is there in one fashion or another, if not physically in the bread and wine, then at least spiritually.

We have to take it on faith… faith in Jesus’ words; and faith untested is no faith at all. It’s kind of to be expected that we’ll struggle/ be tested somewhat. Here’s an excerpt from Pope Paul VI (Encyclical, *Mystery of Faith *9/3/65):

"…the Fathers took special care to warn the faithful that in reflecting on this most august Sacrament, they should not trust to their senses, which reach only to appearances of bread and wine, but rather to the words of Christ which have the power to transform, change and transmute the bread and wine into His Body and Blood. For, as those same Fathers often said, the power that accomplishes this is the same power by which God Almighty, at the beginning of time, created the world out of nothing.

Thanks mikew262; and thanks 5pintLutheran and Adam 14 for your posts. When one reads them one can’t help but reflect on the Eucharist (God is working through all of us).

Fr. Albert Joseph Mary Shamon’s book “Behind The Mass” quotes some rather unique and interesting parallels that a Bishop Samonas of Gaza gave to someone questioning him on the Eucharist. The answers are different in that they don’t really involve any complicated theology; they are simple, easy to understand examples…good food for reflection in that they could help expand the scope of the readers’ imaginations when contemplating the Eucharist.

From pgs 37-38 ] Fr. Shamon’s Book , “Behind The Mass” :

"Bishop Samonas of Gaza had come to Jerusalem. A Mohammedan publicly requested him to answer some questions regarding the Blessed Sacrament.

The Mohammedan asked, ‘How is it possible for bread and wine to become the Body and Blood of Christ?’

The bishop replied, ‘Your body changes the food you eat into your flesh and blood. Can not God also do what you can do?’

‘But how can Christ be present in His entirety in a small host?’

‘The landscape with the blue sky above it’, responded the bishop, ‘is something immense, while your eye is very small. Yet your tiny eye can contain in itself the whole gigantic picture. Is it impossible then for Christ to be present in a small piece of bread?’

‘How is it possible for the same Christ to be simultaneously present in all your churches?’

‘To God nothing is impossible,’ answered the bishop. ‘When I speak to a single individual, he hears me. Should I address the same words to 1,000 people, they too would hear the same thing. If I broke a large mirror into 100 pieces,the image reflected in the large mirror would not be broken; rather there would be the same image in each of the 100 fragments of glass… Why cannot Christ be present in many places at the same time’…/.

 

[peary]

So Jimmy that begs the question: “what does one have to believe about Jesus to be saved?” I’ve mentioned before the apostles creed and that most protestants would agree with it except maybe for the definition of Catholic. If you’re going from a completly definitive view a protestant would accept Catholic as universal not necissarily represented by the Bishop of Rome. If protestants believe in the apostles creed and they live a life worthy of the name christian. Then are they saved?

Sorry, Jimmy, but I need to comment here. If Protestants believe in the Apostles Creed and they live a life worthy of the name ‘Christian’, then are they saved? you ask. Why not? But if they are presented with the Truth that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself and that it contains and teaches the fullness of Truth, and still reject this, then they may be in danger of losing their salvation because they would rather lead a lie instead of embracing the Truth.

 

[mikew262]

Sorry, Jimmy, but I need to comment here. If Protestants believe in the Apostles Creed and they live a life worthy of the name ‘Christian’, then are they saved? you ask. Why not? But if they are presented with the Truth that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself and that it contains and teaches the fullness of Truth, and still reject this, then they may be in danger of losing their salvation because they would rather lead a lie instead of embracing the Truth.

They first have to recognize that the Catholic Church is the Truth, if they don’t, no harm, no foul?

 

[NeedImprovement]

They first have to recognize that the Catholic Church is the Truth, if they don’t, no harm, no foul?

That’s a crucial point.

I remember having coffee with a group of people from our Church several years ago and one of the younger more vigorous in the group said, " I’m doing an apostolate at (name witheld) and I’m trying to convert (names witheld)"; at which point the deacon in the group interrupted and said, “Excuse me, but you don’t convert people…only God can convert people.”

Furthermore before any among us could make a definitive statement of someone’s proneness to being saved or of losing salvation, we would need to know the most minute details of their thoughts (no thanks- I have enough trouble with my own).

Anyhow, as the little “prompting” from the following quote of the Catechism of the Catholic Church reminds us - our own conversion isn’t an event ; it’s a lifelong process.

1426 Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Body and Blood of Christ received as food have made us “holy and without blemish,” just as the Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is “holy and without blemish.”

Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature, nor the inclination to sin that tradition calls concupiscence, which remains in the baptized such that with the help of the grace of Christ they may prove themselves in the struggle of Christian life.14 This is the struggle of conversion directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.

 

[Jimmy_B]

They first have to recognize that the Catholic Church is the Truth, if they don’t, no harm, no foul?

True and unlike the criminal justice system, where there are “general intent” and “specific intent” crimes, sin is - “specific intent”, meaning willful knowledge. Although, there does exist situations which might fall under, “knew or should have known”, “avoid even the occasion of sin” and “the nine ways of being an accessory to another’s sin”.

 

[Hisalone]

Tabernacle as in where the Blessed Sacrament is kept on reserve (in 99.9% of Catholic Churches in a visible and prominent place with a sanctuary lamp constantly burning close by to indicate the “Presence”).

I heard a sermon on the word tabernacle and apparently it means dwelling, but more literally tent as in the Tent of Meeting in Exodus 38:8 . The original language of the Gospel of John, (according to the priest who gave the sermon,) in the prologue -"…and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" is actually literally rendered “… the Word became flesh and ***‘tented’ ***among us.”

(@ sambos 671 I know appearances can be misleading, but in reality I’m not totally dysfunctional - the question of “Now what do I do”, comes after I’ve found a pew and am seated in it. Going into a house of prayer where the Blessed Sacrament is not present can change a Catholic’s prayer perspective.)

Do you not know that God is everpresent wherever we go?
Do you not know that God desires to dwell within our soul and within our spirit so that we are to be tabernacles?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Do you not know that God is everpresent wherever we go?
Do you not know that God desires to dwell within our soul and within our spirit so that we are to be tabernacles?

**Good point Hisalone; God loves us so much, that he not only wants to be present to us as you stated above, but he became incarnate, he assumed humanity, a body he prepared for. God not only desires to dwell with us, God does so body, blood, soul and divinity. God makes himself present to all those who believe in his commandments and teachings. God makes known to his children that he eagerly desireth to eat this passover with us, and he makes new covenant in his blood, It is here where the true Sabbath from Genesis comes to fulfillment, because now God and humanity both become one through his only begotten son Jesus Christ. where Jesus states in his prayer, " I and the father are one, that these (believers) may be one, and the father is all and in all. Where the new Adam revealse this is now bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. Where humanity rests in God, in both his humanity and divinity through the blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist, when the body and blood of Jesus is consumed, that gives eternal life to all those called of God, into the heavenly wedding banquet of Lamb supper of the Lord, where to who ever opens when he knocks at the door, Jesus will come and dine with you. This is Sabbath rest in its fullest form when man rests in God, and share a meal together.

Peace be with you**

 

[5pintLutheran]

Do you not know that God is everpresent wherever we go?
Do you not know that God desires to dwell within our soul and within our spirit so that we are to be tabernacles?

Rightly so! But I would ask as well: If God is everpresent wherever we go, what’s preventing Him from coming to us physically in the Eucharist? In the Last Supper, the majority of Christians today understand literally the promise that Jesus gave: “This is my body, which is for you… This is my blood, for forgiveness of sins…” Some say that it is spiritual, symbolic, physical, or none at all. If God isn’t present in the Eucharist, then He must not be as allmighty as we think he is. You can’t say that God is present everywhere EXCEPT in the form of bread and wine, that’s trying to limit what God can do. The concept of communion being only symbolic is not what early Christians that were with the Apostles thought and practiced.

Yes, our bodies are temples of God, but wouldn’t you also call a church a “House of God”?

 

[NeedImprovement]

Do you not know that God is everpresent wherever we go?
Do you not know that God desires to dwell within our soul and within our spirit so that we are to be tabernacles?

I can’t recall ever saying that God wasn’t present or implying that He wasn’t…doesn’t make sense if He’s omnipresent does it ?..]END QUOTE

Hi Hisalone. Yes I believe and accept God is omnipresent - as I quoted above. I realize there are a lot of posts in this thread,and it would be excessive work to read them all, especially if one has joined the thread later on; but you quoted me in post # 587 and I’m quoting myself from only 2 posts later - post # 589 (…not sure how you overlooked that one).

Again in answer to your second question :Do you not know that God desires to dwell within our soul and within our spirit so that we are to be tabernacles?/, I’d say: Yes, most certainly. Quite likely my favorite reference for this reflection is our Beloved Lord Jesus’ own words from John 6:56 :

“Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me, and I live in him,”

God Bless.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Rightly so! But I would ask as well: If God is everpresent wherever we go, what’s preventing Him from coming to us physically in the Eucharist? In the Last Supper, the majority of Christians today understand literally the promise that Jesus gave: “This is my body, which is for you… This is my blood, for forgiveness of sins…” Some say that it is spiritual, symbolic, physical, or none at all. If God isn’t present in the Eucharist, then He must not be as allmighty as we think he is. You can’t say that God is present everywhere EXCEPT in the form of bread and wine, that’s trying to limit what God can do. The concept of communion being only symbolic is not what early Christians that were with the Apostles thought and practiced.

Yes, our bodies are temples of God, but wouldn’t you also call a church a “House of God”?

Another nice post 5pintLutheran. Thx.
Some might see God present under the appearance of a piece of bread as being limited or a sign of weakness, but (recall Matt 11:29) Jesus said “…I am meek and humble of heart”, some say that in this Sacrament we are actually witnessing God’s infinite humility.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Perhaps a small sampling from the biography of Blessed Brother André Bessette - founder of St. Joseph’s Oratory here in Montreal better illustrates how Catholics believe (or should believe ) that God is omnipresent and how we do indeed see eye to eye with most of our Christian brethren on this one. The following is paraphrased:

Several incidents are recounted in Brother André’s biography where people would approach him saying God (and sometimes St. Joseph) didn’t hear them…that only Brother André heard them. This was a terrible burden for the littlle Brother to hear these words and it would literally make him ill when he heard them so that he could not receive visitors for several days after.

On one occasion a man came to Brother André and said he didn’t think it was useful to continue praying because God was too far away and didn’t hear him. In response, Brother André began to whisper the Lord’s Prayer in a barely audible voice. When he had finished the prayer he said to the man, “You see…God’s not so far away - He heard every word I just said.”

Then Brother André added : "Whenever we say the words ‘Our Father who art in heaven…’, God’s ear is at our lips."

 

[Jimmy_B]

Good point Hisalone; God loves us so much, that he not only wants to be present to us as you stated above, but he became incarnate, he assumed humanity, a body he prepared for. God not only desires to dwell with us, God does so body, blood, soul and divinity. God makes himself present to all those who believe in his commandments and teachings. God makes known to his children that he eagerly desireth to eat this passover with us, and he makes new covenant in his blood, It is here where the true Sabbath from Genesis comes to fulfillment, because now God and humanity both become one through his only begotten son Jesus Christ. where Jesus states in his prayer, " I and the father are one, that these (believers) may be one, and the father is all and in all. Where the new Adam revealse this is now bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. Where humanity rests in God, in both his humanity and divinity through the blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist, when the body and blood of Jesus is consumed, that gives eternal life to all those called of God, into the heavenly wedding banquet of Lamb supper of the Lord, where to who ever opens when he knocks at the door, Jesus will come and dine with you. This is Sabbath rest in its fullest form when man rests in God, and share a meal together.

Peace be with you

 

[MaryChristine]

**Good point Hisalone; God loves us so much, that he not only wants to be present to us as you stated above, but he became incarnate, he assumed humanity, a body he prepared for. God not only desires to dwell with us, God does so body, blood, soul and divinity. God makes himself present to all those who believe in his commandments and teachings. God makes known to his children that he eagerly desireth to eat this passover with us, and he makes new covenant in his blood, It is here where the true Sabbath from Genesis comes to fulfillment, because now God and humanity both become one through his only begotten son Jesus Christ. where Jesus states in his prayer, " I and the father are one, that these (believers) may be one, and the father is all and in all. Where the new Adam revealse this is now bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. Where humanity rests in God, in both his humanity and divinity through the blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist, when the body and blood of Jesus is consumed, that gives eternal life to all those called of God, into the heavenly wedding banquet of Lamb supper of the Lord, where to who ever opens when he knocks at the door, Jesus will come and dine with you. This is Sabbath rest in its fullest form when man rests in God, and share a meal together.

Peace be with you**

Thank you for putting it together so beautifully. It gives me peace and joy to contemplate my union with Our Lord in Eucharist. Pax Christi!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Thank you for putting it together so beautifully. It gives me peace and joy to contemplate my union with Our Lord in Eucharist. Pax Christi!/QUOTE

Isn’t Jesus wonderful and all his works, that gives Glory to God our “Abba” Father.
This is the day the Lord has made let us rejoice and be glad, God bless you and Jimmy B. Peace be with you

 

[AlegreFe]

Most certainly the “Real Presence” is REAL.

Just as Jesus Christ is REAL so is His Real Presence in the Eucharist. There is nothing symbolic about the Eucharist. It is not a cracker bought at a grocery store (as it is in my sis’ non-denominational church). It is not grape juice (as it is in my sis’ non-denominational church). It is not merely wine. It is really and truly Jesus Christ. And He is not “along side” the bread and wine. The bread and wine cease to exist as substance when Jesus is substantially present.

I actually receive Jesus Christ when I go to Holy Communion at Mass. And I love receiving Him as often as I could.

Please click on the link in my siggy, “Jesus is the Eucharist.”

 

[jdnrite01]

This is kind of a silly question. The phrase “Real Presence” is descriptive. Would it be used to describe something which is simply symbolic?

 

[AlegreFe]

This is kind of a silly question. The phrase “Real Presence” is descriptive. Would it be used to describe something which is simply symbolic?

Haven’t you ever heard of a particular group of protestants using the phrase “real presence” but do not mean it in the same way that we Catholics do? Well, they exist. I don’t know who they are or what group. I would imagine there could be just groups of people and not necessarily the denomination itself that would use that phrase. The “real” to those people would simply mean that Jesus is “really” present everywhere in Spirit. I have heard this somewhere but I don’t remember where. So knowing this information, you could not say that this is a “silly question” now could you?

 

[AlegreFe]

There are at least four takes on the Eucharist:

Transubstantiation
Consubstansiation
Sacramental Union
Memorialism

Only the last denies the real presence.

Only the last three deny the real presence.

The Eucharist is ALL Jesus Christ. We Catholics do not consider Jesus to be “along side” the bread and the wine. Jesus completely replaces the substance of bread and wine.

The Anglican priests do not have valid ordinations because they are not in succession of the Apostles so when the Anglican people go up to receive communion they are not receiving Jesus, they are only receiving a host if that is what the anglican church uses.

Besides this poll/thread is about the real presence and not how it happens. No one can explain how it happens anyway. The term “transubstantiation” was only used to try to explain the real presence to “doubting thomases” or to people who just couldn’t accept the real presence without some sort of explanation of how it happens. It happens with the Holy Spirit, that’s how.

 

[jdnrite01]

Haven’t you ever heard of a particular group of protestants using the phrase “real presence” but do not mean it in the same way that we Catholics do?

Any religious body which denies the reality of Christ in the Eucharist obviously shouldn’t use the term “Real Presence.” That phrase has a distinct meaning.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Interested folks should make it a point to visit a Catholic Church that has 24/7 Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration … and just sit there in front of Jesus in the Monstrance for a quiet hour.

See what happens.