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4bagger
Guest
Sy, Mickey is right… it’s both… we must believe AND partake.
But for discussion sake, let’s look at what you said. Why can’t I just as easily say this:
*Jesus tells us that if we eat his flesh and drink his blood we have eternal life. He puts no restrictions on this. It is a flat out statement that partaking of his flesh and blood equals eternal life.
However if He is speaking literally in verse 35 He is contradicting this statement because He tells us that we can only have eternal life if we believe in Him. I believe everything He says so I cannot take verse 35 as literal.*
Using your logic and simply changing the verse numbers, I can make the same argument you did, except I make it FOR eating his body and drinking his blood. In other words, how do you know, based on your logic, which verse contradicts which? You simply assume 51-58 contradict 35 because that’s what you want to believe.
Actually, going back to what Mickey said, they don’t contradict each other at all. It is TWO different concepts: we must believe and we must partake of Eucharistic sacrament.
S
SyCarl
Guest
It is not the same thing because verse 53 makes it a requirement to eat Jesus’ flesh and drink His blood. He uses the word unless, giving no exceptions. He does not do this in the other verses.
G
guanophore
Guest
Good point!
N
NeedImprovement
Guest
I concur - It really is a good point. This particular perspective, the use of the word unless the way you’ve explained it, gives me food for thought re. God’s forgiveness also SyCarl.
Of course not all biblical translations are the same , but I did notice the New International Version renders Matt 18:35 this way :
Matthew 18:35 (New International Version)
“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you ***unless ***you forgive your brother from your heart.”
Although God’s forgiveness is offered to all, we would appear better disposed to a fuller measure of His Mercy if we are able to forgive our brother from our heart (I believe that it’s God’s grace alone which makes me personally able to forgive my brother from my heart).
M
Matariel
Guest
What about all the interpretations of the men who personally learned under the Apostles themselves (Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Pope Clement)? How do they interpret the Last Supper? Didn’t Saint Paul talk about “decerning the Body and Blood of the Lord” within the Eucharist? And of being guilty of the Body and Blood? 
M
Matariel
Guest
What about all the interpretations of the men who personally learned under the Apostles themselves (Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Pope Clement)? How do they interpret the Last Supper? Didn’t Saint Paul talk about “decerning the Body and Blood of the Lord” within the Eucharist? And of being guilty of the Body and Blood?
This is just one issue that led me to the Catholic Church, away from my Protestant fundamentalist upbringing.
This is just one issue that led me to the Catholic Church, away from my Protestant fundamentalist upbringing.
D
distracted
Guest
i heard somewhere that the souls in Purgatory abide near the tabernacle with Jesus (24/7)…
I believe that… but someone disagreed with me about it… gave no irrefutable “proof” to the contrary…
yet it makes sense to me (though i can’t prove my posiition either)… that they would be There… because only Jesus can purify a soul and make it ready for Heaven…
I believe that… but someone disagreed with me about it… gave no irrefutable “proof” to the contrary…
yet it makes sense to me (though i can’t prove my posiition either)… that they would be There… because only Jesus can purify a soul and make it ready for Heaven…
N
NeedImprovement
Guest
I’ve always thought that there’s more that isn’t written about Purgatory than there is. It’s possible the one who disagreed with you, Distracted , was working from the Church’s standpoint that Purgatory is more a process or evolving state of purification than it is a geographical location. But I don’t think we can say that the holy souls and our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament reserved in the tabernacle are not linked.
The handbook of indulgences [1991] says (3 Adoration Ss.mi Sacramenti) : " A partial indulgence is granted the Christian faithful when they visit the Blessed Sacrament for the purpose of adoration. When this is done for at least a half hour, the indulgence is a plenary one."
We know these indulgences can be, dependent on the wish of the one who gains them, applicable to the holy souls in Purgatory.
Private revelation (which doesn’t require our assent of faith) relates that Padre Pio would sometimes see the holy souls gathering to leave for heaven when he was celebrating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
Yet, again, from private revelation, in St. Faustina Kowalska’s diaryDivine Mercy in My Soul] (her guardian angel brought her to visit Purgatory several times) it is related that St. Faustina asked the holy souls, “What is your greatest suffering”, and then it’s recounted they all replied with one voice, “Our greatest suffering is our longing to be with God!”
So were we to view your speculation, in light of these aforementioned private revelations, we would at least need to admit the increased liklihood that if the holy souls did abide near the tabernacle with Jesus, they would not be able to see Him as the holy angels do (otherwise it wouldn’t be Purgatory
) .But (again - private revelation) there is this fascinating story that exists about the holy souls and a prayer which is attributed to St Mechtilde (who is St. Gertrude’s sister). It is a type of meditation of praying the Our Father for the holy souls. The (purported) event actually places the holy souls right in a church before the tabernacle ; we could say within close proximity of your train of thought. It can be viewed at the following link, and is the last article on the page entitled O MASTER, TEACH US TO PRAY THE OUR FATHER
FOR THE SOULS IN PURGATORY (attributed to St. Mechtilde)
holysouls.com/prayers.htm
(I’ve read several other stories along the same lines as the above but have no coordinates to quote them from)
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
All, great points… excellent post!What about all the interpretations of the men who personally learned under the Apostles themselves (Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Pope Clement)? How do they interpret the Last Supper? Didn’t Saint Paul talk about “decerning the Body and Blood of the Lord” within the Eucharist? And of being guilty of the Body and Blood?
This is just one issue that led me to the Catholic Church, away from my Protestant fundamentalist upbringing.
S
sambos671
Guest
The same with me. The thing is you can’t ignore the Eucharist. It is very clear the Catholic Church and the Early Church are consistant with each other on this. Once you’ve seen the role of the Eucharist in the Church then you’re really at odds of denying the Catholic Church. The Eucharist is the keyWhat about all the interpretations of the men who personally learned under the Apostles themselves (Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Pope Clement)? How do they interpret the Last Supper? Didn’t Saint Paul talk about “decerning the Body and Blood of the Lord” within the Eucharist? And of being guilty of the Body and Blood?
This is just one issue that led me to the Catholic Church, away from my Protestant fundamentalist upbringing.
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
yes jimmy it is very real the bible talks about it in luke 22;19-20 and matt 26-27 and again in mark 14; 22-24 yes it is real
D
distracted
Guest
i wish i could remember where i heard that the souls in Purg are there… but from my experience, i just “know” its true, even though can’t prove it and, as stated, would acquiece if Pope Benedict told me otherwise…It can be viewed at the following link, and is the last article on the page entitled O MASTER, TEACH US TO PRAY THE OUR FATHER
FOR THE SOULS IN PURGATORY (attributed to St. Mechtilde)
holysouls.com/prayers.htm
(I’ve read several other stories along the same lines as the above but have no coordinates to quote them from)
All i know is that i don’t feel such a … sense of the depth of the purgation process anywhere else on Earth (just the unexposed Sacrament…)
N
Napsack
Guest
I truly do believe
that he is present in the Eucharist, but not because of someone commanding it or unlocking a secret formula to make it happen. It happens on Christ’s own accord.
R
rosarygirl11
Guest
In a word: YES!
L
Lilyflower
Guest
Many years ago, my wife and I went to London to visit Westminster Abbey and Westminster Cathedral, In my innocence, thought the Abbey was Catholic and the Cathedral Anglican [rather than how it really is, the other way around].
We agreed to visit the Abbey first. On arrival I was shocked and horrified that I could not FEEL the Real Presence. My faith hung in the balance, I was bewildered and confused.
My dealy beloved upon asking why I was so perplexed, told her I could not feel the Real Presence I ALWAYS feel whenever I go into a Catholic Church.
She laughed and told me what I silly fool I was, this was the Head Anglican Church not the Catholic one!
We set off in earnest to find Westminster Cathedral. Before we reached it, from a distance I caught a glimpse and even over the half mile or so from it, I felt the enormous Power of the Real Presence. I sobbed tears of emotion, elation and faith convicted.
Since that day, I have never entered a Catholic Church and not felt that Power.
If it not from the Real Presence then from where does the Power come?
Pax Christi
We agreed to visit the Abbey first. On arrival I was shocked and horrified that I could not FEEL the Real Presence. My faith hung in the balance, I was bewildered and confused.
My dealy beloved upon asking why I was so perplexed, told her I could not feel the Real Presence I ALWAYS feel whenever I go into a Catholic Church.
She laughed and told me what I silly fool I was, this was the Head Anglican Church not the Catholic one!
We set off in earnest to find Westminster Cathedral. Before we reached it, from a distance I caught a glimpse and even over the half mile or so from it, I felt the enormous Power of the Real Presence. I sobbed tears of emotion, elation and faith convicted.
Since that day, I have never entered a Catholic Church and not felt that Power.
If it not from the Real Presence then from where does the Power come?
Pax Christi
S
sambos671
Guest
I wish I had that kind of sensitivity. I don’t. Unfortuantely, I rarely feel anything. Everything I do is based on my comprehension. Or ability to act and think rather than feel.
D
distracted
Guest
thanks… didn’t know i was getting an indulgence all those times…holysouls.com/prayers.htm
(I’ve read several other stories along the same lines as the above but have no coordinates to quote them from)
gotta go, but appreciate the info…
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
**** Would Jesus, the Incarnate Word of God who became man to save humanity, allow his followers to leave Him if they misunderstood His teaching? Of course not, especially when the teaching regarded how they were to obtain eternal life which was at the heart of Jesus’ mission. Jesus always explained the meaning of His teachings to His disciples. Mark 4:34. Jesus did not say, “Hey, guys, come back here, you got it all wrong.” He didn’t do this because they did not have it all wrong. They understood correctly - we must eat Jesus’ flesh and drink His blood, or we have no life within us. The Protestant who contends that the Catholic offering of bread and wine in the Mass is just a symbol (and does not miraculously become the body and blood of Christ through the actions of the priest acting “in persona Christi”) must address John 6:53-58, 66-67 - why Jesus used the words He did, and why Jesus allowed His followers to leave Him if they understood Him correctly (which is the only time in Scripture where Christ allows His disciples to leave Him based upon a doctrinal teaching).
L
Lilyflower
Guest
May the Lord Jesus bless you brother.
We are ALL given gifts, different gifts but all equal before the Lord.
Your gift is of equal value to mine.
May the Lord Jesus be with you now and forever.
Blessings and Peace
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