Is the Real Presence valid in EO services?

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LCMS believe in the Real Presence. 🙂

God bless,
jeann8
That is a completely different question from whether they HAVE it. The “reality” of the Presence is contingent upon the “reality” of their Holy Orders. Their theology of Order is completely different from the Catholic and Orthodox view, and LCMS does not have valid Orders. No Orders, no Real Presence – even if they believe it IS “real.”
 
LCMS believe in the Real Presence. 🙂

God bless,
jeann8
This is off OP but let me comment briefly.

The core problem with ALL protestants (just like the Orthodox of this OP) is one of insubordination and believing only what one wants to belive.

Christ said very clearly “those that reject you [apostolic authority] reject Me and He who sent Me”. The common thread of error we see over and over in Protestantism is the false teaching that “if one only believes hard enough then they will be saved”. This is NOT sufficient - and its only a lip service. One MUST also SERVE Jesus and be obedient to Jesus as well. This means one MUST be obedient to and respect apostolic authority.

Lutherans do not have a divinely granted nor recognized priesthood and therefor have utterly bogus, human-appointed and imagined “ministers”. Basically, I am sorry to say, you have fake priests - you have no priesthood and no holy nation are are only weakly linked to the mystical body of Christ through baptism. Your ecclesial community leaders do not have the ecclesial authority and divinely granted powers to convert the bread and wine to the body of Christ. In fact it is probably a sacriledge for your ministers to attempt to convert the bread and wine since they lack authority and reject God’s Church - its worse than a sin of presumption - its a sin arrogance. I am sorry to say you all eat crackers and drink grape juice - and the birds thank you for the leftovers when they are tossed out on the sidewalk after service.

**Believing, even when obsessed with belief does not make a falsehood miraclously true. **

Come to the Catholic Church and get the real-thing or sit in the presence of The Lord in the exhibition of the Chapel - it will change your life. Trust me.

James
 
This is off OP but let me comment briefly.

The core problem with ALL protestants (just like the Orthodox of this OP)
I wasn’t aware the OP was Orthodox. They were questioning why not be Orthodox.
is one of insubordination and believing only what one wants to belive.
Christ said very clearly “those that reject you [apostolic authority] reject Me and He who sent Me”. The common thread of error we see over and over in Protestantism is the false teaching that “if one only believes hard enough then they will be saved”. This is NOT sufficient - and its only a lip service. One MUST also SERVE Jesus and be obedient to Jesus as well. This means one MUST be obedient to and respect apostolic authority.
Lutherans do not have a divinely granted nor recognized priesthood and therefor have utterly bogus, human-appointed and imagined “ministers”. Basically, I am sorry to say, you have fake priests - you have no priesthood and no holy nation are are only weakly linked to the mystical body of Christ through baptism. Your ecclesial community leaders do not have the ecclesial authority and divinely granted powers to convert the bread and wine to the body of Christ. I am sorry to say you all eat crackers and drink grape juice - and the birds thank you for the leftovers when they are tossed out on the sidewalk after service.
**Believing, even when obsessed with belief does not make a falsehood miraclously true. **
Come to the Catholic Church and get the real-thing or sit in the presence of The Lord in the exhibition of the Chapel - it will change your life. Trust me.
He said “Take, eat.”

Not “Sit, stare.”

So clear you are on where grace isn’t?
 
Why be Catholic when there are valid sacraments in the Easter Orthodox?

Well, for starters they have not held any council meetings in centuries and we think it is because they know there is such an internal schism that it would become a forum for formal division and splintering and give strong evidence that they are just another dieing branch of the true apostolic church.

They also lack deeper theological developments in areas like purgatory. Their scholarship is severely declining. Also they lack “universality”. It is clear that the EO is not in anyway representative of the apostolic “universal” church in scope or influence or numbers. The EO simply does not scale to the domain of “universal” - so its is decidedly NOT Catholic.

I met an Orthodox woman who I wanted to date. She told me she would not date a mere Catholic. They look down on us and think they are better. But at the same time they have adopted some very secular attitudes. This particular woman was divorced 2 times. When I asked her if she had annulments for that she laughed and said "no, in the Orthodox church the bishops set the rules - and mine says I get to remarry up to 3 husbands if it does not work out and there is good reason to grant divorce’. I shook my head as I saw the complete bankruptcy in this area of Orthodoxy. It is my opinion that when all is said and done, if EO do not re-align with the Vatican they will maintain the pretty rites then water down the religion to the point where it will look very similar to the older school protestant faiths.

Also the EO are unable to hold together their widely divergent views and reel in rogue bishops since they lack a unifying authority like we have at the Vatican. In the Latin Church if a bishop starts preaching heresy - he is defrocked and excommunicated - end of heresy.

On a more positive note the EO have enormous spirituality and are our brothers. We in the west find their devotions to icons and a few obscure old saints very strange - but in general the Orthodox have a very pious and highly respected spirituality. Their services are breathtaking and I wish the West would reincorporate more of that tradition and push back some against the modern mass rites and rediscover the byzantine rites.

James
 
I wasn’t aware the OP was Orthodox. They were questioning why not be Orthodox.

He said “Take, eat.”

Not “Sit, stare.”

So clear you are on where grace isn’t?
So, can you show me a scriptural verse that tells us to sit and stare and revernce icons over the Eucharist? :rolleyes:

James
 
So, can you show me a scriptural verse that tells us to sit and stare and revernce icons over the Eucharist? :rolleyes:

James
No, but I can give the arguments that the iconoclasts gave for worshipping the Eucharist over reverencing icons. It was one of their main arguments.
 
Why be Catholic when there are valid sacraments in the Easter Orthodox?

Well, for starters they have not held any council meetings in centuries and we think it is because they know there is such an internal schism that it would become a forum for formal division and splintering and give strong evidence that they are just another dieing branch of the true apostolic church.
Like your councils of Siene? Basel? Constance? Vienne? Pisa? Lyons II?
They also lack deeper theological developments in areas like purgatory.
Yes, we lack many accretions.
Their scholarship is severely declining.
LOL. Sorry, we are not as progressive as many of your “theologians,” it is true. How do you spell Crouchen’s name?
Also they lack “universality”.
I need a good laugh: explain how we lack “universality.”
It is clear that the EO is not in anyway representative of the apostolic “universal” church in scope or influence or numbers.
Just the little flock being led by the Good Shephard down the narrow road through the narrow gate.
The EO simply does not scale to the domain of “universal” - so its is decidedly NOT Catholic.
The One, Holy, CATHOLIC and Apostolic Church, the ones who stick to what the Apostles taught.
I met an Orthodox woman who I wanted to date. She told me she would not date a mere Catholic. They look down on us and think they are better. But at the same time they have adopted some very secular attitudes. This particular woman was divorced 2 times.
And you wanted to date her why?
When I asked her if she had annulments for that she laughed and said "no, in the Orthodox church the bishops set the rules - and mine says I get to remarry up to 3 husbands if it does not work out and there is good reason to grant divorce’. I shook my head
I’d shake mine too. What were here “good reason?”
as I saw the complete bankruptcy in this area of Orthodoxy.
Haven’t looking into the qorban of anullments?
It is my opinion that when all is said and done, if EO do not re-align with the Vatican they will maintain the pretty rites then water down the religion to the point where it will look very similar to the older school protestant faiths.
Hasn’t happe in a thousand years, won’t happen in a thousand more.

If we “realigned with the Vatican” in time for Vatican II, we would be just in time for all the problems you’ve had the last 4 decades.
Also the EO are unable to hold together their widely divergent views and reel in rogue bishops
and what rogue bishops do we have to reel in?

We just deposed the Patriarch of Jerusalem for misrule, so what are you talking about?
since they lack a unifying authority like we have at the Vatican. In the Latin Church if a bishop starts preaching heresy - he is defrocked and excommunicated - end of heresy.
LOL. In the US, most Orthodox are happy that the Vatican is claiming such a tight reign for the simple reason of keeping his bishops here somewhat in line, so they don’t wander off too much.
On a more positive note the EO have enormous spirituality and are our brothers. We in the west find their devotions to icons and a few obscure old saints very strange - but in general the Orthodox have a very pious and highly respected spirituality. Their services are breathtaking and I wish the West would reincorporate more of that tradition and push back some against the modern mass rites and rediscover the byzantine rites.
Thank you. We like your B XVI and JP II too.
 
Isa Almisry: This is a bit off-topic but:
See the wedding of EO and OO “mixed” marriage. We both recognize the marriages of each other (we don’t recognize any one else’s), and that the family will be brought up in the Holy Mysteries of the Church that blesses the union.
I’ve communed Miaphysite Churches, including the Syriac Patriarch Cathedral, which his holiness presding, with the full knowledge of the priests that I am Ruumi.
The Catholic Communion also has such arrangements with Oriental Orthodox Churches, most notably the Armenian and Syriac. In fact, we have standing agreements for the sharing of Sacraments, including a recognition of mixed marriages (where both families must be allowed to receive Communion), with the Syriac Orthodox.

As for the Copts, I know of no “official” agreements like with the Syriacs and Armenians, but I know that “unofficially” Catholic Copts often receive the Sacraments at Coptic Orthodox churches, especially in cases of “mixed marriages”.

My point is that none of these things are indicators of an impending reunion, only of a softening of positions that have been hardened for 1600 years.

Peace and God bless!
 
That is a completely different question from whether they HAVE it. The “reality” of the Presence is contingent upon the “reality” of their Holy Orders. Their theology of Order is completely different from the Catholic and Orthodox view, and LCMS does not have valid Orders. No Orders, no Real Presence – even if they believe it IS “real.”
Pope Benedict XVI would disagree with you.

usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

Paragraph 107:

“I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.(166)”
 
Oh holy cow! Does this now mean we have to consider the Lutherans’ service as having the Real Presence?

Now I’m very confused.
 
**And if it is, does that mean then one of the unique things that prove Catholicism as true and of God falls down?

Because if it’s valid with them, what’s the point of staying with Catholicism? Just because the flock was entrusted to Peter? Was not the whole deposit of Faith entrusted to all the Apostles?**

Rome has never claimed that the Real Presence exists in Catholic Churches alone. She has ALWAYS said that the sacraments celebrated by the Orthodox and other Eastern Churches are valid.
 
Strictly speaking, the Catholic Church alone possesses the Eucharist and the sacraments. We as Catholics believe that salvation comes through Christ and His Church alone. Thus all grace given to mankind is derived, in some way, from the holy Catholic Church through the divine mysteries Christ has entrusted to Her. When an Eastern or Oriental Orthodox priest celebrates the Divine Liturgy the holy sacrifice of Christ is truly offered; he is able to do so, however, because he has received holy orders from a bishop who traces his succession to a Catholic bishop. From a Catholic perspective, the priest remains, ontologically, a Catholic priest. He shares in the Catholic priesthood given to the Apostles by Our Lord Jesus. He simply lacks full unity and communion with the earthly head of the Christian priesthood, the Pope of Rome. The Eastern Orthodox lack the fulness of unity, but as baptized Christians they are, in an imperfect sense, incorporated into the Catholic Church. (This is also true of Protestants, by virtue of their baptisms, but to a much lesser degree as they do not receive Our Lord in Holy Communion).

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
837
"Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who—by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321
838
"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324
 
Strictly speaking, the Catholic Church alone possesses the Eucharist and the sacraments. We as Catholics believe that salvation comes through Christ and His Church alone. Thus all grace given to mankind is derived, in some way, from the holy Catholic Church through the divine mysteries Christ has entrusted to Her. When an Eastern or Oriental Orthodox priest celebrates the Divine Liturgy the holy sacrifice of Christ is truly offered; he is able to do so, however, because he has received holy orders from a bishop who traces his succession to a Catholic bishop.
Yes. The one who ordained him.
 
The Catholic Position is that the Orthodox are not severed from the body, merely no longer taking direction from the main body of the Church.

Much like a palsied limb, it still lives, still functions, but doesn’t always do what is right, and sometimes does its own thing.

Same for the SSPX, the Old Catholics, and the PNCC…
 
So in essence Jesus has a diseased body right now, the Church being His body and having unright body parts.

This logic truly confounds me, especially in light of the fact that Jesus is supposed to be the Perfect Man as well as the Perfect God.
 
Pope Benedict XVI would disagree with you.

usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

Paragraph 107:

“I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.(166)”
Read c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y. Recognition that the Lord is present in the Lutheran Lord’s Supper does not mean that that celebration enjoys the Lord’s presence in the same way that the Eucharist’s of the Apostolic Churches do.
 
Read c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y. Recognition that the Lord is present in the Lutheran Lord’s Supper does not mean that that celebration enjoys the Lord’s presence in the same way that the Eucharist’s of the Apostolic Churches do.
Correct, in that it is not clear what Pope Benedict means by saying the “salvation granting presence of the Lord” is present in a Lutheran Eucharist.

My reason for posting the link was more of a response to the other poster who said Lutheran communion was just crackers and grape juice. As a Catholic-leaning Lutheran, whenever I wonder in the back of my mind whether I should convert, normally all I have to do is come to a message board like this and read an obnoxious post like that one, and I am cured of my “Roman fever” immediately.
 
Why be Catholic when there are valid sacraments in the Easter Orthodox?

Well, for starters …(I edited it I hope thats ok)… Their services are breathtaking and I wish the West would reincorporate more of that tradition and push back some against the modern mass rites and rediscover the byzantine rites.

James
Hi James, I enjoyed your post, but its the last comment you made that struck me the most. You know, that is no small thing!

To me, everything comes down to the Mass, and if their Mass is breathtaking then Glory be to God! That is the way it should be!

I am so disappointed with the Mass I have experienced as a new convert. Its so watered down and Protestant in its effect. Its really quite terrible in my opinion. I pray everyday that the Catholic Church goes back to old Mass forms. The new one to be quite honest, just sucks.
 
Isa "Haven’t looking into the qorban of anullments?
If we “realigned with the Vatican” in time for Vatican II, we would be just in time for all the problems you’ve had the last 4 decades."
Hi Isa, what is the qorban of annullments?

I agree with you about Vatican II. Its probably best you didn’t make all those changes.🙂
 
Hi James, I enjoyed your post, but its the last comment you made that struck me the most. You know, that is no small thing!

To me, everything comes down to the Mass, and if their Mass is breathtaking then Glory be to God! That is the way it should be!

I am so disappointed with the Mass I have experienced as a new convert. Its so watered down and Protestant in its effect. Its really quite terrible in my opinion. I pray everyday that the Catholic Church goes back to old Mass forms. The new one to be quite honest, just sucks.
Lisa,

The mass of paul vi can be very breathtaking if it is done correctly according to the rubrics. The entire mass can be said in Latin. I don’t think the solution to the liturgical problem is necessarily to go back to the Tridentine mass. Vatican II proposed some changes to that mass which were necessary changes.
 
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