Is the redistribution of wealth and resources just to alleviate poverty?

[Sochi]

Interesting point.

Still though, I think we’re missing the core of the problem in solving it.

You are right. It seems to me that post 59 & 60 go in that direction.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

What did you earn when you were an infant? OK then, infants have to earn their own way! How about the sick and dying? Right Let them rot! (you too, Zoltan, when you can’t earn any more, or if your savings run out) Soldiers what defended your way of life, returning to no jobs? Heck, let them die for their country and you Zoltan. Single mothers abandoned? Hey, there are plenty of jobs out there at minimum wage that don’t pay costs and keep the mom away from the kids! Tough luck, Mom! Streets? Fire protection? Police? Ambulances? Who the heck needs those? To hell with them all, right Zoli? (It’s ok, it was my Dad’s name too. He spent his life fighting hardasses who had the attitude toned by your post.).

If you are living at a poverty wage, I sure don’t expect you to pay taxes. None. If you are making 5-10K an hour on other people’s backs, it is responsible maintenance to take care of the citizenry. Even if you don’t want to. As history tells us, the best way for a republic to fail is to institutionalize great inequity. The question is in the word “earn.” Printing money for free as loans isn’t earning, it is extorting. Breaking your back in hard labor to keep a family alive at minimum wage just is unfair and irresponsible.

Money in the world’s so called “democratic” nations has been created through debt for more than the last 200 years by the private banking system that has been restoring what was once in history a feudalistic (non-democratic) existence for the masses. The money created in this system has been, and is cause for all our booms and busts. We have got so used to its enslavement that we (especially governments believing in their economic advisers) cannot imagine the absence of “legally fraudulent” banks. In a sane system, the kinds of questions we are fighting with wouldn’t exist, or be greatly alleviated.

Wow! Soch, old sport…Great rant!

So your dad was named Zoltan also. Wonderful! And he fought hardasses. My Dad did the same. He was tortured and killed by Russian hardasses during the Hungarian Revolution.
We have so much in common.

But, you still have not answered my question: How much of what I earn belongs to you …and why?

And please do not confuse a person’s benevolence with what is forced by a government.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

What makes you think you deserve what you earn?

Because I WORKED very hard to earn it. We all deserve what we earn.

What if you some mafia killer?

But I’m not a killer.

 

[Rence]

Redistribution need not be forced. If you gave willingly to help the less fortunate than that is redistribution. If everyone or most of us gave willingly of our time, treasure and talent, that is redistribution.

People assume redistribution is forced. It may. If it is forced it’s nothing but theft. I don’t care who is doing it. It still is theft.

Now the sticking point is that the obligation of a citizen may include paying taxes. How much is the point of debate.

No, giving willingly is a donation. Taking money out of people’s checks to ‘redistribute’ is theft. I am NOT talking about our current taxes, which go to support civil programs. I’m talking about people who want everyone’s paychecks chopped up and ‘redistributed’ to “even out” everything - setting aside the fact that how much a person earns is correlated to the skills, education and experience required to do the job.

I have even encountered people on this forum who want the pay wages structured so that people with kids get paid more than single people solely based on the fact that they have kids - and that’s with skills, education and experience not being a factor.

Sorry, but that kind of ‘redistribution’ is stealing.

 

[Rence]

Because I WORKED very hard to earn it. We all deserve what we earn…

Why on earth would someone even challenge the fact that you deserve to get paid for the work you do? The fact that an employee-employer relationship defines what you agree to be paid, and what the agree to pay you, is not rocket science.

I am also waiting for an answer to your question:

How much of what I earn belongs to you …and why?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

If I deprive myself, what will I have that I can offer my neighbor?
If I don’t pamper myself, how can I learn to pamper others?
If self-starvation is a sign of self-love, why then should I feed others?

If our corporations place factories in third-world countries to sell products to us, I think that gives us some responsibility towards them.

Yet when that labor is shifted back onshore, it’s treated on the same level as blue-collar/back office dirty work. Can’t I say I remember the last person who’d want ‘Factory Worker’ or ‘Call Center Agent’ on their resume.

 

[Kamaduck]

I have nothing to do with them. I do not know them, they have their own lives separate from mine. I will not help them regardless of emotion.

I will help my children, and everyone else’s children who live within my nation -the United States of America. I will sacrifice my life for these people only. These people are my only neighbors.

This is nonsense. The Biblical example of a “neighbor” to the Jews is a Samaritan, not a Jew. The Samaritan recognized his duty to his neighbor and paid for his injured neighbor’s stay at the inn. That’s what Christ would have us do.

Now, I can maybe understand opposing spending taxes on other countries, but that doesn’t mean that we as individuals don’t have a duty to help the poor, both in our own nations and overseas.
Zoltan Cobalt:

How much of what I earn belongs to you …and why?

If I am starving, you have a moral duty to feed me. Maybe I’m starving because of my own poor life choices. Maybe I’m starving because I’m a kid who was never given a fair shot in life. It doesn’t matter. We’re Christians. We don’t leave people to die when we could have saved them.

Now, you can ask for services or something, but what if I can’t offer them? What if I’m a stroke victim who is just learning to speak again? Are you going to tell me that since I haven’t earned my bread, I’m not allowed to eat? What would Jesus say about that? In fact, wasn’t Jesus himself a wanderer who ate whatever the faithful gave him? (Yes. Yes, he was.)

 

[Robert_Sock]

Because I WORKED very hard to earn it. We all deserve what we earn.

And what do the starving children in the world deserve? Do they deserve to die a slow, agonizing death? Are you empathic enough to feel some of the pain and suffering that people living in extreme poverty experience? Remember the second commandment of Christ: Love your neighbor as yourself.

LOVE!

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Because I WORKED very hard to earn it. We all deserve what we earn.

We have to be very careful throwing around the word “deserve”. At every mass we hear the words “do not consider what we truly deserve, but grant us your forgiveness.”. This is an acknowledgement that from God’s perspective, none of us truly deserve anything in any absolute sense. If we have “earned” anything, it is by the grace of God that we have done so. It would be well for us to keep that in mind at all times. It is also clear from observation that “working hard” does not correlate perfectly with earnings. A systems analyst who was lucky enough to get a good education and to be blessed with a quick mind does not have to work nearly as hard as a sanitation worker or drywall installer, and yet the former can get twice the pay as the later. Does he necessarily deserve it? Well, from a legal perspective, yes he does. Our economic system would collapse if we denied the workings of supply and demand. From from a moral perspective, which I gather is the perspective of this thread, the matter is quite different. A lot of the reason for individual prosperity is good luck (or God’s grace) more than it is our own merits. Hard work does play a role, but not so overwhelming a role as many would have us believe.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Because I WORKED very hard to earn it. We all deserve what we earn.

Do government workers deserve what they earn? What about abortionists? What about the laborer in a developing country that earns $2 a day, are they getting just what they deserve?

I would say that I am lucky that I live in a country with good wages. I have a friend in a less developed country who works harder than I do, yet he makes about 1/20 of what I do. So do I deserve the big money and he doesn’t? I don’t think so.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

If I am starving, you have a moral duty to feed me.

I do???

Why is it moral to feed you…but not me?
If the sensation of eating is a value, why is it an immoral indulgence in my stomach, but a moral goal for me to achieve in your stomach?
Why is it immoral for me to desire something, but moral for you to do so?
Why is it immoral to produce a value and keep it, but moral to give it away? And if it is not moral for me to keep a value, why is it moral for you to accept it?
If I am selfless and virtuous when I give it, are you not selfish and vicious when you take it?

Now, you can ask for services or something, but what if I can’t offer them? What if I’m a stroke victim who is just learning to speak again? Are you going to tell me that since I haven’t earned my bread, I’m not allowed to eat?

Of course not. I am a kind, benevolent person who respects others. But if you tell me that I am morally obligated to feed you…then kindness, benevolence, respect and the virtue of charity are all reduced to a cheap guilt trip.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

And what do the starving children in the world deserve? Do they deserve to die a slow, agonizing death? Are you empathic enough to feel some of the pain and suffering that people living in extreme poverty experience? Remember the second commandment of Christ: Love your neighbor as yourself.

LOVE!

I do feel some of the pain and suffering that people living in extreme poverty experience. Like you. I am praying for them.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

We have to be very careful throwing around the word “deserve”. At every mass we hear the words “do not consider what we truly deserve, but grant us your forgiveness.”. This is an acknowledgement that from God’s perspective, none of us truly deserve anything in any absolute sense. If we have “earned” anything, it is by the grace of God that we have done so. It would be well for us to keep that in mind at all times. It is also clear from observation that “working hard” does not correlate perfectly with earnings. A systems analyst who was lucky enough to get a good education and to be blessed with a quick mind does not have to work nearly as hard as a sanitation worker or drywall installer, and yet the former can get twice the pay as the later. Does he necessarily deserve it? Well, from a legal perspective, yes he does. Our economic system would collapse if we denied the workings of supply and demand. From from a moral perspective, which I gather is the perspective of this thread, the matter is quite different. A lot of the reason for individual prosperity is good luck (or God’s grace) more than it is our own merits. Hard work does play a role, but not so overwhelming a role as many would have us believe.

Very good points and worth a deep ponder.

I would only disagree with your take on individual prosperity. Luck plays a role for a lottery winner and makes him prosperous. From my perspective, hard work, courage, and risk are the main reasons for individual prosperity.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Do government workers deserve what they earn?

No

What about abortionists?

Religiously and morally NO. Secularly, Yes

What about the laborer in a developing country that earns $2 a day, are they getting just what they deserve?

They are getting what they agreed to, so Yes.

I would say that I am lucky that I live in a country with good wages. I have a friend in a less developed country who works harder than I do, yet he makes about 1/20 of what I do. So do I deserve the big money and he doesn’t? I don’t think so.

Then you should graciously trade places with your friend and not feel guilty.

 

[TEPO]

This is nonsense. The Biblical example of a “neighbor” to the Jews is a Samaritan, not a Jew. The Samaritan recognized his duty to his neighbor and paid for his injured neighbor’s stay at the inn. That’s what Christ would have us do.

Now, I can maybe understand opposing spending taxes on other countries, but that doesn’t mean that we as individuals don’t have a duty to help the poor, both in our own nations and overseas.

Yes, but this thread is about forced re-distribution, not charity. I’m with you on individual charity if that’s what we feel we should do.

…I was talking about the OP 's issue.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Very good points and worth a deep ponder.

I would only disagree with your take on individual prosperity. Luck plays a role for a lottery winner and makes him prosperous. From my perspective, hard work, courage, and risk are the main reasons for individual prosperity.

What you’re describing is a very competitive person. What about all the people who do not value senseless competition such as what you describe? Such people, given they are of good moral character, deserve a fair amount of prosperity.

LOVE!

 

[stinkcat_14]

No

Why don’t government workers deserve what they get? They agreed to it, and someone agreed to pay it, so why are government workers any different than any other worker? For example, I lose workers in my department fairly frequently to other jobs because our pay scale is below market, yet those workers didn’t deserve what they were getting paid?

 

[stinkcat_14]

Then you should graciously trade places with your friend and not feel guilty.

Actually, I am not competent enough to do his job. Also, there are immigration laws in both countries that would prevent switching places. Although I have toyed with the idea of bringing him here on a “vacation” and lining up some ways for him to bring in money.

I think the problem with being born in America is that we were born on third base and we think we hit a triple. It is truly childs play acquire a million dollars in the US if you start early enough and make smart decisions. If you are making $2 a day it is virtually impossible.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

What you’re describing is a very competitive person. What about all the people who do not value senseless competition such as what you describe? Such people, given they are of good moral character, deserve a fair amount of prosperity.

LOVE!

People who do not value “senseless competition” are people without ambition. They do not want to work. They think the world owes them a living.

But I’ll go along with you…If they DESERVE a fair amount of prosperity…where are they going to get it?

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Why don’t government workers deserve what they get? They agreed to it, and someone agreed to pay it, so why are government workers any different than any other worker? For example, I lose workers in my department fairly frequently to other jobs because our pay scale is below market, yet those workers didn’t deserve what they were getting paid?

Sorry. It’s a personal opinion of mine. All government workers are overpaid.