Is the redistribution of wealth and resources just to alleviate poverty?

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Not according to the Church. Otherwise, Social Security would have been condemned a long time ago.
Social Security is a self funded program which is withdrawn from according to contributions, It is not funded by the government. On the other hand, the government has borrowed heavily from it, because of its success. The current campaign to reduce SS is predicated on the GOP not wanting to pay back what’s due from their having been party to splurging from that account.
 
Ahhh…there’s the slippery slope.

Our government was not formed as a charity.

A government that takes from one by force and gives to another is guilty of THEFT.

A wealthy person who contributes to the needs of others as he sees fit is practicing the virtue of charity. A wealthy person was allowed to deduct a portion of his charitable giving from his taxes. Positive incentive 🙂 Now our government, in its ignorance, has eliminated those deductions. :mad: Don’t blame the rich if charitable contributions are down.
Proportionally, the poor give more than the rich, as they give from experience, for the most part. Tax deductible charitable contributions may simply be an economic tactic.

All those off shore accounts are charity to banks and their depositors and stock holders.

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Well, it’s a question. I won’t pretend that I have the answer. We’ve got to provide for people somehow, and I think the OP was asking what lengths we are allowed to go to in order to provide for people’s needs.

If you agree that all people should have the basic necessities of life (lets say food and water, clothing, and shelter, for the moment), then how do we get those things to them?
It is not how we bring those things to them… it is how we help them obtain those things for themselves.

I am all for helping the poor, but…I think the best way of helping the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading them out of it. I have seen that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.
I don’t think I agree that taking something from someone and giving it to another is always theft. That would make, say, taxes that we use to pay military personnel a form of theft. 🤷
No. our congress is REQUIRED by the Constitution to provide for the national defense. (Military spending). There is no requirement to provide charity to the needy. Who on Earth would want a secular government deciding who, or what group gets charity???
 
…and the poor give to who?
Each other, of course. Many of my friends “float” each other through rough times one way or another. Not easy, and it keeps a lot from getting done, but saves butts.

Or they give to the rich. They always seem to be asking for more. Only that part is involuntary. The part you seem set against?

Or they give to the Church or televangelists.
 
Each other, of course. Many of my friends “float” each other through rough times one way or another. Not easy, and it keeps a lot from getting done, but saves butts.

Or they give to the rich. They always seem to be asking for more. Only that part is involuntary. The part you seem set against?

Or they give to the Church or televangelists.
Wow!

Can you deduct a “float”?

Some people think i’m rich…when do I get my share?
 
Each other, of course. Many of my friends “float” each other through rough times one way or another. Not easy, and it keeps a lot from getting done, but saves butts.
Ah but if one of you ceases ‘floating’ each other, do you all stay friends? 😉 Are any of you truly as selfless as you say you are when you condemn the one who has ceased sharing? When you deny him/her friendship because of their own ‘selfish’ behavior? 😉
 
You too…? You voted to add taxes for the hungry in Africa?
I’m not actually a voter or taxpayer yet- not old enough. I just debate these things so that I can be exposed to opposing viewpoints and other arguments, which will allow me to vote responsibly in the future, when I do have to make decisions.
That is true, which is why that the example of Christ is one of unmeritied giving. Can we compel God to grant us salvation? No.

Likewise the concept of compelled giving is equally contrary to the Gospel. Charity, being a virtue cannot be compelled. And if it is not Charity (Charos-Love) it is contrary to Love.

And like Love, it cannot be compelled.

So if we are to seek any redistribution of wealth done in a way that is pleasing to God, the goal is to change hearts. From there, and only there, with any legitimate distribution of wealth occur.
Makes sense to me. I’m not particularly pro-government involvement, I just want to be clear that we do have an obligation to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. I wasn’t sure whether Zoltan agreed that we had such an obligation when I made that post, so I wanted to point out that sacrificing for those who don’t deserve it is a way for us to emulate Christ. That’s all.

I honestly don’t have much faith in the government’s abilities, although I acknowledge that many programs do serve useful purposes. I’m totally on board with focusing on individual hearts and minds.
It is not how we bring those things to them… it is how we help them obtain those things for themselves.

I am all for helping the poor, but…I think the best way of helping the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading them out of it. I have seen that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.
I agree with the first part of your paragraph. Ending the cycle of poverty is certainly preferable to alleviating it just a little bit. However, I disagree that pulling the rug out from under desperate people will universally inspire them to work harder. In a truly desperate situation, you’ll simply be taking away their lifelines. If they’re not equipped to support themselves, it’s irresponsible for us to strip away the support we’ve been giving them. I know my life experience is much shorter than yours, but I’ve seen as much just from watching struggling students- if you take away the help that a student was relying on, even a smart or hardworking one can be overwhelmed. Overwhelmed, stressed-out students get worse grades than before. It’s the same in life- a single mom who suddenly can’t get food stamps doesn’t become a single mom who is suddenly motivated and able to get a high-paying job. She becomes a single mom who is forced to choose between buying food and paying the heating bill, and her work performance suffers because she’s now in an even worse situation.

I think that a big way to break cycles of poverty is through education. People need skills if they are to be able to support themselves, and they can’t simply become skilled overnight. In this era, getting a job that can support a family often requires a formal degree. That’s my :twocents:.
No. our congress is REQUIRED by the Constitution to provide for the national defense. (Military spending).
OK, they still take your tax money and give it to soldiers in exchange for the service of protecting the country. Whether or not it’s enshrined in the constitution shouldn’t make a difference with regard to whether it’s theft. If forcing someone into giving away their money is always theft, then paying the military fits the bill. I think it’s arguable whether our military is anything like what the founders intended, anyway, considering that for a large part of American history we didn’t have much of any standing military except during wartime.

Not that I think having a standing military is a bad idea- I just don’t think the Constitution requires it.
There is no requirement to provide charity to the needy. Who on Earth would want a secular government deciding who, or what group gets charity???
Frankly, I’m not any more comfortable relying on private charities. Individuals have greater freedom than the government, which is good in that they can make their own judgements in special cases. It’s also kind of scary, because they can refuse to help you on pretty arbitrary grounds. 🤷
 
You sound like the self-absorbed brother in the parable of the prodigal son.
Really? It sounds more like someone who’s just demanding a taste of the equality pie since there are many here who insist on serving it to everyone. 🤷

Personally, I’ve tried tasting it but could never bring myself to appreciate the flavor.
 
It is not how we bring those things to them… it is how we help them obtain those things for themselves.

I am all for helping the poor, but…I think the best way of helping the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading them out of it. I have seen that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.

No. our congress is REQUIRED by the Constitution to provide for the national defense. (Military spending). There is no requirement to provide charity to the needy. Who on Earth would want a secular government deciding who, or what group gets charity???
Good Morning Zoltan: We live to be a lot older these days. I think that we are living ling enough that we should be able to figure out that we don’t even want to play in that game. We are in a much better position nowadays to re-examine our social paradigms and decide who and what we want to be hereafter. It should not be based on old ideas of who we should be - ideas that are vestiges of a time when most of the population couldn’t read and lived to be about 40 or so. But here we are playing the same old game. There is no excuse not to take responsibility for our lives together and take control of this situation.

youtube.com/watch?v=8rGwASGXj8w

Thanks,
Gary
 
It is not how we bring those things to them… it is how we help them obtain those things for themselves.
One way to do that is to provide capital. That has world here and in that third world, even if it was small loans with minimal interest, or grants. Fact is, Zoltan, that charity alone does not suffice, because it just isn’t done. There are a few people in the world who could from their personal resources feed its entirety. Is that happening? No matter how you slice it, it is in the best interest of a nation or a world to take care of its poor. How many Ada Lovelaces, Einsteins, Sts Tereesas of Avila, or Meister Eckharts have died from starvation or lack of clean water or medicine? You can be legalistic, fearing for your own worldly goods, but that is also heartless, expensive, wasteful, and mean. Also, if this is really your stand, you are not getting invited here for goulas.
I am all for helping the poor, but…I think the best way of helping the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading them out of it. I have seen that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.
Yes, that seems to be the case if you are wearing that filter. It does happen as you say. But it also happens a lot more nowadays, way more, that someone can have a full time job and more, working their but off, and simply not make it. I’ve been on food stamps for my family when there was just no work, despite daily expeditions to fill out aps, etc. The first thing I wanted, or anyone I ever knew in that situation wanted, save a very few, was to get back to work. And believe me, I talked to a lot of people in lines. Please read this and reply, especially #3.
No. our congress is REQUIRED by the Constitution to provide for the national defense. (Military spending). There is no requirement to provide charity to the needy. Who on Earth would want a secular government deciding who, or what group gets charity???
“Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.” ~D. Eisenhower, Rep. President.
He speaks for me, and everyone. Defense may be a Constitutional mandate, but our budget is one of empire, of waste, of fear, and servitude to financial interest. Our military budget is greater than the next 14 nations combined. Something more than defense is going on there. And the backwash of that is the surplus military gear is going to local police. You may soon see 1956 here, Zoltan, and it won’t be the Russians. For my part, I’d rather see that money thrown on the streets for anyone to pick up than spend it on death and destruction. If we had spent 10% of what we have on war, killing, maiming, destroying property and lives, there could have been peace on Earth. Peace is a lot cheaper than war. That is why it is constantly promoted by financial interests. That is why psychometrists are getting rich promoting a segment of the population to have the attitude you promote.
 
Not that I think having a standing military is a bad idea- I just don’t think the Constitution requires it.
In fact, it doesn’t. Appropriations for armies were originally limited to two years’ duration.

Having a massive permanent army is a result of the Civil War.

ICXC NIKA.
 
What in this miserable and corrupt world is fair? Was the industrial revolution fair to the Third-World? Did the top 2% of the richest people obtain their money fairly? Surly it’s not from the perspective of those living in extreme poverty. We steal resources from the impoverished countries, such as those in Africa. It’s time justice is served and severe poverty gets eliminated, even if it costs the well-to-do some of their riches. In considering what is fair and just, remember that there are 9,500 children who die of starvation every day. Please, I ask you, is it fair?

LOVE! ❤️
However old the world is, that’s how long “unfairness” has gone on. Our beloved Lord said Himself, “the poor you have with you always”. It is not for man to end poverty. From a spiritual standpoint, for all we know, poverty is the Willie Wonka gold ticket to heaven. That’s what I glean from the Gospel anyway. But besides the seeming Christian assurance and hope for the poor, this doesn’t mean that man isn’t supposed to comfort the poor. (Whenever you fed, housed, clothed, visited, etc. the least of these…you did it to me). So, there is a moral, ethical and even spiritual imperative to love one’s neighbor. That is you and me, as individual persons, should do all we can to assist those less fortunate than ourselves. And if we ARE less fortunate than most, to be gracious and grateful for the assistance offered by our brothers and sisters as well. This is what the world terms charity. That is from caritas, which is latin for agape which is selfless giving love of neighbor, (from the heart).

When you bring up the concept of a state MAKING things fair, or the popular “Redistribution of wealth”, then the state is taking on the roll that belongs with the individual. It is communism. It destroys the incentive of the industrious to achieve wealth so that there IS anything to give. It imposes the giving. The poor are still poor, and so is everyone else. And none of it was choices emanating from the heart. None of it was love.

In the West, I’ve noticed a lot of group guilt about the poor. And so we turn to the state to do something about it out of a sense of “justice”. What is right. What is fair. The Government in the United States of America for instance has done enormous things for the less fortunate. Perhaps more than any other country on earth. Ever. And not just for our own citizens, but for people abroad, as well. The poor haven’t stopped coming. But the government has done MORE than it’s bit.

In my humble opinion, it is more in the realm of the church to help the poor than the state. And the church is not going to be re-distributing wealth. We just feed people when they’re hungry. Give them a safe place to sleep, and perhaps some ideas about how they themselves might turn things around FOR themselves. (this last part is where the churches are perhaps slacking a little). But the biggie isn’t even the churches. It’s you and me. Brothers and sisters in Christ. We are the ones who should be out there at all times and in every way feeding, housing, clothing and visiting to the best of ability. All of us. From every walk of life. From every income strata, Not enforced by the Government. Just direct action of the loving Christian (Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Mormon, Witness, etc.), giving from not only our surplus, but having the faith to give from our own poverty as well.

The worst thing that could possibly happen in the west is the same old stuff which has been tried before, and failed miserably, of forcing a redistribution of wealth. It does nothing to end poverty or greed. It actually stimulates hatred, resentment, and violence. Not only that, but it creates an expectation that the government (state) is responsible for everything, and those who NOW do things out of love, and in the name of Jesus Christ tend to be stifled. The state, if they are the decider on wealth, wants no competition. The first thing to go is the churches. Then the religions themselves. Then the individual people who still “resist” the state.

Meanwhile, you major corporations, CEO’s, and uber-rich class of gone off to the next place where they can continue to rake in money without state interference, so there IS no wealth to be re-distributed within the state anyway. The wealth all flies the coop at the first sign of state control of the the economy.

So…nice words. I know your feelings. Your heart is in the right place. If you want to feel the joy of Christ in this matter, just don’t think so macro level on the subject. Just make a sandwhich, and buy a bottle of water, a sweater, and some shoes, and take them to a poor person. Or better yet, buy some things for them, and give them a few bucks, but most importantly, spend some of your time with them. Hear their story. Find out what went wrong. See how YOU can help them. Not the state. It’s not the state that will be in front of Jesus at the end of time. It is you and me. We’re not accountable for what the state did and didn’t do. We’re accountable for what WE ourselves did or didn’t do.

Re-distribution of wealth is a spectacularly bad idea. But I get a sense it was put forth with honest feelings of love for the poor. If every Christian just did their part, and not worry about the Government and what they may or may not do, the world would be a much happier place for the impoverished.

Agape,
Steve
 
Frankly, I’m not any more comfortable relying on private charities.
Charities can find need more easily than I can.

If everybody was expected not only to give to the poor, but go looking for poor to give to, a lot less human need would be met.

ICXC NIKA.
 
Charities can find need more easily than I can.

If everybody was expected not only to give to the poor, but go looking for poor to give to, a lot less human need would be met.

ICXC NIKA.
Oh, I’m not saying charities are a bad thing, or that they don’t do a lot of good. I’m saying I wouldn’t be any more comfortable relying on them than on the federal government. Private charities and government programs have different shortcomings, so it’s best to have some of both available, rather than having a system that uses only one or the other. Private charities are able to be make decisions more readily and have fewer regulations tying them down, but the cost of that is that there are fewer people checking up on them if they make unfair or harmful decisions.

But yes, it’s good to have a measure of organization when helping people.
 
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