Is the rich man in hell or purgatory?

[Gorgias]

#1: It’s just an allegory, meant to teach a lesson, not a theological discussion on the nature of Hell.

Sure, but, just exactly what’s the lesson being taught? “Care for others or end up in hell”, no?

I suspect that this question is one that has been discussed quite a bit over the years.

Oh, boy, has it ever!

(It tends to resonate most strongly, IMHO, with those who want to hope that no one ends up in hell. And maybe, those who identify with the rich man but don’t want to end up there, themselves.)

I’d recommend reading all of of Luke 16 and not just Luke 16:19-31 related to the rich man and Lazarus.

The interesting thing about this parable is its rather striking difference from the previous two parables! In each of the first two parables, the main character has a moment of crisis, and resolves it: the prodigal son comes home (but finds forgiveness rather than mere status as a hireling), and the unjust steward – whose only concern is financial – finds a solution to his employment crisis.

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, there’s a note of finality and warning: the rich man, having never been confronted with his life decisions, finds himself in Hades without recourse.

This parable is as much a dire warning as it is a lesson!

The dogs showed more compassion for Lazarus than the rich man did.

Actually, they didn’t really have lap dogs in those days. To find oneself being licked by dogs might be the modern day equivalent of saying “cared for by wolves”. It’s not a comforting picture, but a shocking one, for Jesus’ audience!

Secondly, there was no Hell, there was no Purgatory at the time the parable is told.

No ‘purgatory’? I’m with you on that. No ‘hell’, though? The damned are the damned. They didn’t change ‘location’ on Easter Sunday.

Ok…but out of curiosity, what just what Jesus trying to explain in words?

“Don’t live a life of comfort, thinking you’re doing just fine for yourself. You may be shocked where you end up”…

Nor evidence that they were real, living, breathing human beings.

 

[signit]

Sure, but, just exactly what’s the lesson being taught? “Care for others or end up in hell”, no?

As I see it, there are two lessons:

(1) As I noted earlier, from our homily, acts of omission (or sins of omission).

It’s not enough to go to Mass regularly and to avoid committing bad acts; we should also affirmatively act when we have an obligation to do so. Just like at Mass when we pray “. . . in what I have done and in what I have failed to do.”

(2) And, as they often tell us in homilies, we shouldn’t put our emphasis on things of this world (wealth or material possessions being one); while these things may not be bad in themselves, we should focus above all on God’s kingdom.

 

[twf]

What makes you think neglecting the poor, in such an obvious and blatant sense, wouldn’t be a grave sin? Our Lord sure strongly warns us about this in Matthew 25…

 

[Cruciferi]

It’s up for debate. However, I think a strong case can be made for him being in Purgatory.

 

[Cruciferi]

Source Please.

 

[twf]

That’s standard Catholic teaching. Ever read the “Ancient Homily” for Holy Saturday (part of the Office of Readings for the day)… the Harrowing of Hell. All the dead went to Hades or Sheol, the abode of the dead, until Christ opened the gates of heaven.

That said… it is not definitive Catholic teaching that purgatory is a place. Purgatory could be in Hades/Sheol I suppose… that would better align with Oriental theology.

 

[irenaeuslyons]

I always thought Theophilus was a real person…

I certainly hope he is. I named by son after that most excellent man

 

[Cathoholic]

Prodigal1984. I personally tnink it is nebulous on purpose.

We are not told for sure.

So for the guy IN a state of grace,
but still a lot of unaccounted for venial sin,
it is warning you of the temporal pain.

(There is an account paid for every wrong word we utter.)

For the guy NOT in a state of grace,
it is warning you of the eternal consequences and never-ending pain.

There is layered meaning here

(I am not suggesting a guy in Puragatory can go to Hell, etc.)

I think it is vague in this area, on purpose.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Cathoholic]

(name removed by moderator) . . . .

I’m pretty sure the Church Fathers and Aquinas all said he’s in Hell and I think they know better than us.

Why not give me a few Church Father quotes on this so I know. (I agree. St. Thomas thinks this guy is in eternal damnation.)

I am not disagreeing with the notion concerning eternal damnation by the way.

I already affirmed it.

I am just saying there could be MORE.

(name removed by moderator) again on the Church Fathers and Luke 16.

I think they were also thinking it was literal and not a parable . . .

Bold mine.

Please show me that too (name removed by moderator).

I said nothing of the nature of it being a parable or not.

That being said, I think it IS a parable.
(Probably not a MERE parable though.)

CCC 1021b . . . . The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.

 

[Cathoholic]

(name removed by moderator) . . . .

Yeah I am probably wrong.

Hold it (name removed by moderator)!

I didn’t say that either.

I’ve read the Fathers on this in the Catena and it is really tough to tell because they use the word “Hades” instead of eternal condemnation.

“Hades” is just too vague of a term for me to draw a lot of conclusions from.

“Hades” merely means “the grave” or “the abode of the dead”.

Naturally there are some in “the grave” that have their soul in Heaven.
Likewise there are others in “the grave” that have their souls in eternal condemnation. What we oftentimes call . . . “Hell”.

I haven’t disagreed with anything you are saying to me.
I just think there might be more.

St Hippolytus on Hades

THE CONCLUSION IS WANTING.

AGAINST PLATO, ON THE CAUSE OF THE UNIVERSE.

1. And this is the passage regarding demons. But now we must speak of Hades, in which the souls both of the righteous and the unrighteous are detained. Hades is a place in the created system, rude, a locality beneath the earth, in which the light of the world does not shine . . .

CCC 633a Scripture calls the abode of the dead,
to which the dead Christ went down,
“hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek -
because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.
Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous . . .

Bold mine.

Hades = “The grave” or “the abode of the dead”.

 

[Cathoholic]

Dr. Pitre (whom I have great respect for) makes a lot of the points you do (name removed by moderator).

 

[Cathoholic]

LUKE 16:19-31 19 “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz′arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz′arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

 

[Cathoholic]

(name removed by moderator) . . .

I’m one hundred percent he’s in hell (current) specifically because there was a wide chasm that was uncrossable to him . . .

Well the people in Purgatory do not go into Heaven either. At least until they have been cleansed. (“Nothing unclean will enter that Holy City” of the New Jerusalem.)

And people in Heaven probably cannot go into Purgatory unless they have a special mandate from God.

That and his thirst would never be quenched . . .

What if Jesus just meant until the end of time for this guy?
(I agree if they are in a state of mortal sin, “the end of time” won’t matter except then they get their bodies back too. And now their bodies that helped get them to eternal condemnation, will now be an instrument of that eternal torment too as the Roman Catechism talks of.)

I just don’t think it is so clear.

If you want I will at least explain the argument for a purgatorial application to this “Rich Man” here.

I am NOT saying this is definitive. I am just saying, I don’t think it is as clear as 100%.

 

[Dan_Defender]

So, again, mere wealth is not the sin, but what we fail to do with earthly riches certainly is a sin of omission.

I agree. This is also reinforced by the fact that he was rebuked by Abraham, who was rich in his earthly life, but used his wealth wisely.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Someone who is cut off from God completely, shouldn’t be able to practice virtues.

 

[Zach]

My priest said Lazarus, being in Abraham’s bosom, was in purgatory. He said since Christ hadn’t yet redeemed us Lazarus was not yet in Heaven. Since Christ has not yet redeemed us, the priest probably meant a type of purgatory or waiting place and not yet the Purgatory of Catholicism, since neither that or Heaven or Hell would yet exist. Following this line both The Rich Man and Lazarus would be in Hades, the abode of the dead, awaiting Christ’s redemption. The text states The Rich Man was in Hades. The Bosom of Abraham, as the Haydock commentary quoted earlier, is a waiting place, also Hades, until the redemption. Lazarus being in Abraham’s Bosom would be saved upon Christ redeeming us, whereas the The Rich Man would be damned after The Redemption. So both their fates were already set in the Old Covenant and waiting upon the New Covenant for their final eternal home, one awaiting Heaven the other awaiting Hell.

 

[JustLOL]

No ‘purgatory’? I’m with you on that. No ‘hell’, though? The damned are the damned. They didn’t change ‘location’ on Easter Sunday.

Of course not…you confuse the events of Easter Sunday with Holy Saturday…but besides that, hell or purgatory is a state of the soul, and not a physical “location”, so that point is questionable too…and finally, Christianity (especially Catholicism) is based on, in large part, the traditions and beliefs of Judaism, which God used as a basis of the fulfillment of revelation and salvation history…so to deny that Christ visited souls who had not yet received a particular judgment is also questionable, theologically.

 

[JustLOL]

Really? Show me a Church teaching that claims it as such, and “where” it is claimed to be…Is there a vortex in the earth the unjust get sucked down into? The closest to a claim of it being a physical location might be Dante’s Inferno, but hardly a Church Document.

 

[JustLOL]

Yet neither you nor Thomas tell us where this place is…theology evolves, and therefore, perhaps the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1033) has it right when stating, " This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell”.

Again, with deference to St. Thomas, neither archaic stories of eternal punishment by fire, or being cast to a geographic location speaks as much to torment of the horrific “state” of being metaphysically separated from God forever and ever.

 

[goout]

The Church does not teach that hell is necessarily a physical place. You are welcome to formulate hell in that respect as many others have done, but that is not dogmatic as opposed to a state of being. No one really knows.