Is the Roman Catholic Church and the body of Christ one and the same?

[Art321]

I agree with you that Luther did not want to start a new Church, and in fact, never saw himself as doing that. He wanted to bring the experience of faith back to the Gospel he read in the pages of Scripture.

**I was actually reading up on Luther as I felt that I didn’t know enough about him. It turns out that this is actually true. He never intended to start a new Church, yet I do believe that some of his interpretations of Scripture were off. **

I think it is important not to feed into Protestant mischaracterizations of the Church. The Church never taught that people had to work and pay for their salvation. There were many clerics who were corrupt, and those who were charged with teaching the faith were misrepresenting it for reasons of greed. While I will agree that this misrepresentation was being taught, this fault should not be laid at the feet of the Holy Bride of Christ, but to those corrupted persons attached to her. This was especially rampant where Luther lived.
The “movement” is much too big to respond to in this context. I think the mistake that Luther made was that he did not distinguish between the Holy Bride of Christ, and the corrupted leadership to which he reacted. He conflated the role and purpose of the successor of Peter with the self centered pesons who occupied the office. He could not look beyond the persons misrepresenting the faith to the Doctrine of the Faith that is unsullied by them.
**Yes, this is something that I was trying to say when I said of Luther’s heresy! While there was widespread corruption within the Church and many were selling indulgences in the name of paying for your salvation. Something that truly goes against the meaning of being Catholic… May I ask your source with this issue?? As you can see these misconceptions ran crazy to our present day. As I was saying, he didn’t separate the persons with the offices of Bishops and the Papacy. Thank you! You expressed this far better than me! **

 

[guanophore]

I was actually reading up on Luther as I felt that I didn’t know enough about him. It turns out that this is actually true. He never intended to start a new Church, yet I do believe that some of his interpretations of Scripture were off.

Whenever the reader departs from the mind of the Church, the interpretation can go “off”.

 

[Art321]

Whenever the reader departs from the mind of the Church, the interpretation can go “off”.

Yes, of course!

And that pretty much sums up Protestantism in a nut shell!

Still, you claimed from your last reply that it was priests and bishops that acted separately from the authority of the Church to tell and sell to the faithful that they only need to pay to be saved.

May I ask where your source is from? I don’t doubt it but it would be greatly helpful if this comes up again. And something tells me it will.

 

[johnnyc176]

And here dear friend is the REAST of the story:

From the Catholic Catechism

CCC #1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity."

CCC 846 846 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

CCC #847 "This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

What my friends does this mean?

God Bless you,Partick

Note…‘can be saved’, ‘may be saved’…not ‘will be saved’

What are the marks of the Church?

One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. There is the Catholic Church founded by Christ. There is no salvation outside of Her period. A Dominican priest once told me…you don’t have to be Catholic to get into Heaven but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

 

[Art321]

Note…‘can be saved’, ‘may be saved’…not ‘will be saved’

What are the marks of the Church?

One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. There is the Catholic Church founded by Christ. There is no salvation outside of Her period. A Dominican priest once told me…you don’t have to be Catholic to get into Heaven but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

Yet, what does it truly mean to be outside the Church?? From my readings if one is baptized in the Holy Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit then they become a part of the Catholic Church.

I would reason that most Christians are within the Catholic Church but not in perfect communion. The protestants are still within the Church but not to the ideal communion that is required! With our Orthodox brothers and sisters, I believe the Church of Rome teaches that they are valid Churches with valid sacraments. They are in better communion with Rome than protestants, but since they lack communion with the successor of St. Peter they are not completely within the fullness of the Church.

 

[johnnyc176]

Yet, what does it truly mean to be outside the Church?? From my readings if one is baptized in the Holy Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit then they become a part of the Catholic Church.

I would reason that most Christians are within the Catholic Church but not in perfect communion. The protestants are still within the Church but not to the ideal communion that is required! With our Orthodox brothers and sisters, I believe the Church of Rome teaches that they are valid Churches with valid sacraments. They are in better communion with Rome than protestants, but since they lack communion with the successor of St. Peter they are not completely within the fullness of the Church.

One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

 

[Vico]

Yet, what does it truly mean to be outside the Church?? From my readings if one is baptized in the Holy Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit then they become a part of the Catholic Church.

I would reason that most Christians are within the Catholic Church but not in perfect communion. The protestants are still within the Church but not to the ideal communion that is required! With our Orthodox brothers and sisters, I believe the Church of Rome teaches that they are valid Churches with valid sacraments. They are in better communion with Rome than protestants, but since they lack communion with the successor of St. Peter they are not completely within the fullness of the Church.

The Catechism teaches that it is baptism that incorporates one in the Church, as you posted:

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5

791 The body’s unity does not do away with the diversity of its members: "In the building up of Christ’s Body there is engaged a diversity of members and functions. There is only one Spirit who, according to his own richness and the needs of the ministries, gives his different gifts for the welfare of the Church."222 The unity of the Mystical Body produces and stimulates charity among the faithful: "From this it follows that if one member suffers anything, all the members suffer with him, and if one member is honored, all the members together rejoice."223 Finally, the unity of the Mystical Body triumphs over all human divisions: "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."224

 

[frangiuliano115]

Note…‘can be saved’, ‘may be saved’…not ‘will be saved’

What are the marks of the Church?

One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. There is the Catholic Church founded by Christ. There is no salvation outside of Her period. A Dominican priest once told me…you don’t have to be Catholic to get into Heaven but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

Ya gotta love that Dominican priest.
I guess HE knows more about who’s going to heaven than Jesus does.
Could I get his name - I’d like to check if I’m on his list in his book of life.

Hmmmm. What does Catholic mean anyway?
Maybe this is what Jesus meant when He said that the road is narrow? Only Roman and Orthodox Catholics are getting in.

You know, the bible says not to judge. Not to judge what? We can judge a persons actions but we’re not to judge a person’s soul.

If I remember right, I think only God can do that.

 

[Seekerjn316]

It’s not really black and white, you know? Some even go so far as to say that Catholics left Orthodoxy (or vice versa) but that seems to me a stretch and an unhelpful polemic.

But speaking of Protestant “returning” to Roman Catholicism makes a certain amount of sense … Just as we Greek and Oriental Catholics sometimes speak of the possibility of “returning” to Orthodoxy, but I am a lifelong Catholic.

A Melkite “returning to Orthodoxy” is a far different thing, 'Melkites" were once Orthodox, were they not? Than a “Nazarene/Salvation Army/Quaker” becoming Catholic…your roots ARE Orthodox, my roots, have been Protestant before the Melkites reaffirmed it’s union with Rome…what my “befores” were prior to 1700CE is unknown…what yours were prior to your church being in union with Rome. was pretty much the same religious structure and liturgy as they had after union with Rome…big difference…an apple to oranges comparison…

 

[Seekerjn316]

Yes, I suppose that would be usual answer coming from your point of view. Yet, look at it from the Church of Rome’s perspective… The Protestant Reformation started with a sinful priest that went on to start a movement in which the Church lost many souls in Europe and as such views all Protestants as lost children without the successors of the Apostles and the entirety of the Faith.

I do believe in part the problem was also the Church’s fault because many priests and bishops within it became obsessed with power, wealth, and with their own pride. They seemed to have been acting like nothing like the disciples of Christ. Yet despite this, the Church is Holy not because of its sinful members, but rather because She is the Bride of Christ and because the Holy Ghost will guide it in Truth until the end of the ages. I hope you manage to come back… May God be with you!

To “come back” as you put it, would require me to profess Catholic belief, this I could not do, for it would require me to renounce Truth that I have embraced and seek to live, I could not do so and “stand squarely in the Light”.

While I realize your hopes and I assume prayers for me which you may have engaged in are accepted in the spirit they were give in. however misplaced I believe them to be, I do appreciate the sentiment.

May you too stand squarely in the Light.

 

[KathleenGee]

If someone were to look up the actual teaching of what makes the Church…you go to the Catholic Catechism and you will find alot of reading, alot of context.

In total there are about 3 full pages of description of what the Church is…in fine print.

For example, there are categories of what is church. What is church in context to non-Christians, and revelation. Church as communion, attributes, the breakdown of the 4 marks of the Church with numerous catechetical/doctrine references which they in themselves have foundation in Sacred Scripture…one, holy, Catholic, apostolic.

Church as built on the confession of faith in Christ, as Head, Church and State, Church of Rome, its goal and important aspect. Interpretation: Body of Christ, 779, 789, 805, for example.

Then there is Church and liturgy, mission of Christ, name “Church” 751-752, 777. Its necessity for salvation, origin, particular traditions of the various churches within communion, hierarchical constitution, ministries, religious life, task of governing, teaching ministry, symbols, tasks and opportunities, vocation.

All of them have subdivisions. Alot there to have understanding of full context of what Church is. Reason we have the Vatican and many people working to assist the many congregations and offices that all oversee the running of the Church world wide.

 

[PJM]

=johnnyc176;13468394]Note…‘can be saved’, ‘may be saved’…not ‘will be saved’

What are the marks of the Church?

One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. There is the Catholic Church founded by Christ. There is no salvation outside of Her period. A Dominican priest once told me…you don’t have to be Catholic to get into Heaven but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

One
Holy
Catholic
Apostolic

No friend what your saying is not wrong; it is also not in line with God’s very nature

Two critically important points:

1. The Catechism of the RCC is an Infallible document in that Thee Church in in capable of error when teaching on all matters of Faith Beliefs and or Moral matters.

Certainly ALL Salvation is through the PORTAL of the RCC as She alone is that One Church founded [Mt. 16:15-19], guided [John 17: 17-20] and protected [Mt. 28:16-20]

**God can be describes as :“All Good things perfected”
**

In Gen. 1: 26-27 we are taught that God choose to “Create man in HIS Own Image”; that teaching didn’t specify only Catholics.

So we ARE to conllude that God’s DESIRES that all men come to merit His Salvation. This from a Moral perspective is akin to God Creating Purgatory in order that MORE Souls can attain the Beatific Vision

Unless Wyclif, Luther, Calvin repented at the last moment; they condemned themselves to eternal hell. ONLY God knows for sure. BUT the further their followers are from the Founders of these errant faiths; the less certain one can be about their salvation. **The issue here is culpability. **

1. So because God is ALL Good things Perfected"; God’s desire is to be Merciful and not Judge in the precisly same manner the adherents as the Leaders. IF they are living a good Christian life; and IF they do not know BECAUSE the Holy Spirit chose not to give them the opportunity to know [despite its logic and biblical foundation; as Wisdom too is a Gift from God] then as the Catechism says, They TOO MAY [that is Might & perhaps ] also have the opportunity to attain the Beatific Vision.

Your priest friend I SUSPECT may have meant by being in heaven they become joined to the Communion of Saints.

Do not my friend be so quick as to declare what the Magisterium HAS taught as bing in error. Amen:thumbsup:

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him

John 10:9
I am the door. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved: and he shall go in, and go out, and shall find pastures.

Acts Of Apostles 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

Romans 10:9
For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[frangiuliano115]

One
Holy
Catholic
Apostolic

No friend what your saying is not wrong; it is also not in line with God’s very nature

Two critically important points:

1. The Catechism of the RCC is an Infallible document in that Thee Church in in capable of error when teaching on all matters of Faith Beliefs and or Moral matters.

Certainly ALL Salvation is through the PORTAL of the RCC as She alone is that One Church founded [Mt. 16:15-19], guided [John 17: 17-20] and protected [Mt. 28:16-20]

God can be describes as :"All Good things perfected"

**In Gen. 1: 26-27 we are taught that God choose to “Create man in HIS Own Image”; that teaching didn’t specify only Catholics.
**
So we ARE to conllude that God’s DESIRES that all men come to merit His Salvation. This from a Moral perspective is akin to God Creating Purgatory in order that MORE Souls can attain the Beatific Vision

Unless Wyclif, Luther, Calvin repented at the last moment; they condemned themselves to eternal hell. ONLY God knows for sure. BUT the further their followers are from the Founders of these errant faiths; the less certain one can be about their salvation. **The issue here is culpability. **

1. So because God is ALL Good things Perfected"; God’s desire is to be Merciful and not Judge in the precisly same manner the adherents as the Leaders. IF they are living a good Christian life; and IF they do not know BECAUSE the Holy Spirit chose not to give them the opportunity to know [despite its logic and biblical foundation; as Wisdom too is a Gift from God] then as the Catechism says, They TOO MAY [that is Might & perhaps ] also have the opportunity to attain the Beatific Vision.

Your priest friend I SUSPECT may have meant by being in heaven they become joined to the Communion of Saints.

Do not my friend be so quick as to declare what the Magisterium HAS taught as bing in error. Amen:thumbsup:

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him

**John 10:9
I am the door. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved: and he shall go in, and go out, and shall find pastures.
**
Acts Of Apostles 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

Romans 10:9
For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

God Bless you,
Patrick

There are so many contradictions in your post I can hardly get into it.
Maybe you could just reread it and make sure it’s what you want to say.

For instance: Is salvation through the portal of the catholic church or is it that God made all men in His image, from Genesis and it doesn’t mean only cathoolics and then you quote John 10:9.

This is why protestants have a problem with catholicism.
Maybe you don’t care that they do…

 

[guanophore]

There are so many contradictions in your post I can hardly get into it.
Maybe you could just reread it and make sure it’s what you want to say.

For instance: Is salvation through the portal of the catholic church or is it that God made all men in His image, from Genesis and it doesn’t mean only cathoolics and then you quote John 10:9.

Perhaps you are getting hung up by that either/or thinking again?

It is BOTH. God made humankind in His likeness and image. He desires all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth.

Jesus gave His life to purchase ours, so that we can live eternally with Him in heaven. He established the Church as the ark that will bear us through this world into the next.

Jesus is the only name under heaven by which we may be saved. Jesus has chosen to save humankind through His One Body, the Church. All who are saved are members of the Church. This is an infallible teaching of the faith.

Outside of Christ there is no salvation, and He is not separated from His Body.

This is why protestants have a problem with catholicism.
Maybe you don’t care that they do…

no, Fran. Protestants have a problem with Catholicism because they have been misled, poorly catechized, or suffer hardness of heart.

You could help to reduce the problems by accurately presenting the faith.

 

[PJM]

=frangiuliano115;13470065]There are so many contradictions in your post I can hardly get into it.
Maybe you could just reread it and make sure it’s what you want to say.

For instance: Is salvation through the portal of the catholic church or is it that God made all men in His image, from Genesis and it doesn’t mean only cathoolics and then you quote John 10:9.

This is why protestants have a problem with catholicism.
Maybe you don’t care that they do…

Friend I care a great deal which is why I have over 10,000 post on this FORUM.

Actually both and that is not friend a contradictory statement of fact.

All men are made in the Image of God:

Gen 1: 26-27

“And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. **And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them” **

Mt 7: 13-15

“Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves”

This my friend is a message about the Catholic Church being the single PORTAL that can alone teach the Fullness of God’s truth."

Matthew 7:21

“Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven”

Each of these shared passages reference the SINGLE Portal for salvation; in different manners; same message.

What I said was:

1. Christ Created, guides and guards Just the one Church He founded for that precise possible of man’s salvation
2. Salvation MIGHT conditionally be possible outside of the Catholic Church for those that the Holy Spirit has not made known to them the “necessity of the Catholic Church” for their salvation. MEANING completely and totally NOT their choice to not know.
3. Even those outside of the CC who are saved; are saved mysterious;y through the Portal of the CC.

Thanks for your criticism. I pray this clarifies it for you and all.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[Peter_J]

A Melkite “returning to Orthodoxy” is a far different thing, 'Melkites" were once Orthodox, were they not? Than a “Nazarene/Salvation Army/Quaker” becoming Catholic…your roots ARE Orthodox, my roots, have been Protestant before the Melkites reaffirmed it’s union with Rome…what my “befores” were prior to 1700CE is unknown…what yours were prior to your church being in union with Rome. was pretty much the same religious structure and liturgy as they had after union with Rome…big difference…an apple to oranges comparison…

Well, clearly the first Protestants were men and women who were in the Roman Catholic Church (the only real alternative would have been Eastern Orthodoxy) and then left it – either by their own choice or by Rome’s decision (excommunication), but either way I think it makes just as much sense to speak of Protestants “returning” to RCism as to speak of Greek Catholics “returning” to Orthodoxy.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Perhaps you are getting hung up by that either/or thinking again?

It is BOTH. God made humankind in His likeness and image. He desires all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth.

Jesus gave His life to purchase ours, so that we can live eternally with Him in heaven. He established the Church as the ark that will bear us through this world into the next.

Jesus is the only name under heaven by which we may be saved. Jesus has chosen to save humankind through His One Body, the Church. All who are saved are members of the Church. This is an infallible teaching of the faith.

Outside of Christ there is no salvation, and He is not separated from His Body.

no, Fran. Protestants have a problem with Catholicism because they have been misled, poorly catechized, or suffer hardness of heart.

You could help to reduce the problems by accurately presenting the faith.

You keep bringing up black and white thinking and this dichotomy thing you keep talking about. I’m tired and shouldn’t even be here, but…

Jesus is the only name under heaven by which we are saved. Okay. JESUS is WHO saves us. It may be through he church or we wouldn’t know about Him, but it’s still Jesus who saves us. This idea of not being able to separate Him from the institutional church will just never be in my book. It’s His Church, His body, that we cannot be separated from.

Plus, you do kind of have to decide which side of the faith question you’re on. In a different thread I read that you agree that we are saved by faith and not by our works.
I’m saying the SAME thing. You’re hoping things will become more spiritual, if I understood that post correctly. If they do, Jesus will have to increase and the church (small c) will have to decrease. Frightening thought, isn’t it? But it won’t be going away. It’s NEEDED. We’ll, maybe, just get our priorities straight.

One day you’re going to understand this and that it’s not really different from what you say. I say this because a very legalistic, pharisee type friend of mine is starting to understand this because of changes that are happening here.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Friend I care a great deal which is why I have over 10,000 post on this FORUM.

Actually both and that is not friend a contradictory statement of fact.

All men are made in the Image of God:

Gen 1: 26-27

“And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. **And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them” **

Mt 7: 13-15

“Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves”

This my friend is a message about the Catholic Church being the single PORTAL that can alone teach the Fullness of God’s truth."

Matthew 7:21

“Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven”

Each of these shared passages reference the SINGLE Portal for salvation; in different manners; same message.

What I said was:

1. Christ Created, guides and guards Just the one Church He founded for that precise possible of man’s salvation
2. Salvation MIGHT conditionally be possible outside of the Catholic Church for those that the Holy Spirit has not made known to them the “necessity of the Catholic Church” for their salvation. MEANING completely and totally NOT their choice to not know.
3. Even those outside of the CC who are saved; are saved mysterious;y through the Portal of the CC.

Thanks for your criticism. I pray this clarifies it for you and all.

God Bless you,

Patrick

Catching up to you on those posts!

Patrick, you’re doing what Guanophore does: You’re confusing me! You seem to be saying two different things.

First of all, I don’t think we should be sitting here deciding who’s going to heaven and who’s going to hell. I think that’s God’s job. He may not be too happy if you try to take His job away from Him.

We could judge people on their actions, but not their soul. In Mathew 7:1 Jesus tell us that by the standard we judge, so shall we be judged. Scary thought.

So Okay. You want us to know that man is made in God’s image. Good.

Then you say we should enter through the narrow gate. The Catholic church is the single PORTAL. We’d have to stop and make sure what you mean by Catholic church. Can I trust that you’re using the term correctly? By this do you mean the UNIVERSAL (catholic in Greek) church of Christ which would also be His body in which all believers in Jesus are united and are one since He is the vine and we are the branches and He is the head and we are members of the body?

If this is what you mean, then I agree.

Then you quote Mathew 7:21
What exactly is the will of the Father??

Next: You say Christ created, guides and guards Just the one Church He founded for man’s salvation. Church again. Have to get that meaning straight.

I don’t remember reading anywhere in scripture that I must believe in the Church to be saved. I become a member of the Church, once I AM saved. Church, capital C.
I remember reading in many places that I must believe in Jesus to be saved. Like for instance John 3:16 would be a good one.

Now you proclaim that salvation MIGHT conditionally be possible outside the Catholic Church. You’re on that judgemental dangerous ground again. And how is anything conditionally possible with God? Conditionally based on what? The only condition God has for us is to believe in Him - if I remember the New Covenant correctly, HE does the rest.

I’m not being critical of you. I think we get too bogged down with canons and laws and regulations and we run the risk of becoming little pharisees. I think God is big and I think He can decide whom He wants and whom He doesn’t want without any help from us.
We’re catholic so we believe what we believe. Those who aren’t catholic have just as much a right to approach God as we do without having to hear that they aren’t saved, or they might be saved, or they might be saved conditionally. Which is what I hear many times. I’m not saying you believe this. I’m not SURE what you believe.

Good Night
Fran

 

[Wannano]

One
Holy
Catholic
Apostolic

Unless Wyclif, Luther, Calvin repented at the last moment; they condemned themselves to eternal hell. ONLY God knows for sure.

And yet you so confidently make the statement!

 

[guanophore]

You keep bringing up black and white thinking and this dichotomy thing you keep talking about. I’m tired and shouldn’t even be here, but…

Jesus is the only name under heaven by which we are saved. Okay. JESUS is WHO saves us. It may be through he church or we wouldn’t know about Him, but it’s still Jesus who saves us. This idea of not being able to separate Him from the institutional church will just never be in my book. It’s His Church, His body, that we cannot be separated from.

Are you suggesting that you are to old and set in your ways to admit any new perspectives?

Jesus intended to found a visible heirarchical Church. Over the course of time, it has developed institutional qualities, because it is contains humans, who need institutions. But it is not spearate from his Body, that is mystical, and invisible.

The Church, like Jesus, is incarnational in nature. She has a divine element and a human element. Christ is her Head,and her Soul is the Holy Spirit. It is these divine aspects that prevent her from error (make her infallible) not the human elements.

The divine aspect of the Church is Holy and undefiled by the corruption of man, who sometimes brings the contamination of sin into the body.

Plus, you do kind of have to decide which side of the faith question you’re on. In a different thread I read that you agree that we are saved by faith and not by our works.

Actually, I said we are saved by grace (neither faith nor works) but we access that grace through faith. It is a certain QUALITY of faith - saving faith is faith that works.

I'm saying the SAME thing.  You're hoping things will become more spiritual, if I understood that post correctly.  If they do, Jesus will have to increase and the church (small c) will have to decrease.  Frightening thought, isn't it?

Yes, I am praying for that purification of the Body. No, I do not find it frightening. I think it is time for the lukewarm to be spewed out of His mouth. We can no longer afford to be nominal Christians (in name only) but must be on fire for Jesus. As the Pope Emeritus said, smaller but more fervent.

But it won’t be going away. It’s NEEDED. We’ll, maybe, just get our priorities straight.

Are you referring to an institution?

One day you’re going to understand this and that it’s not really different from what you say. I say this because a very legalistic, pharisee type friend of mine is starting to understand this because of changes that are happening here.

Fran

I am not sure how you would be able to tell if my understanding was different. I think you have made a lot of erroneous assumptions about me.

My understanding of the Holy Bride of Christ has developed over a long time with many different influences, a major one being how the Saints perceive her. When we read what St. Teresa of Avila and St. Catherine wrote about the Church, it is clear that they perceive the unsullied bride of Christ in the midst of the human institution. This is why St. Catherine admonished the Pope to return to Rome. They are one and the same.