Is the saint in heaven watching himself in the here and now?!

[Jaysuitical]

Lets assume God knows I will go to heaven.

Since God is timeless and therefore his knowledge is timeless, then it must be the case that as far as God is concerned I am already in the eternal now in heaven as we speak experiencing the beatific vision, while at the same time I am not in heaven in the respect of my temporal existence as I am writing this.

Could it be that my heavenly self is watching me right now as I am writing this!!! And if so could I theoretically pray to my self like I would pray to a saint?

Obviously I wouldn’t actually attempt to pray to my self as that would be an act of vanity. I am just asking is it possible that my heavenly self would receive the prayer and if so is it logically possible for him to respond.

A saint enjoys the vision of God in Himself, and would see the whole of creation, the whole of time, within the vision of God. The particular judgment at the moment of death will involve seeing every moment in one’s life and understanding the judgment, both God’s mercy and the penalty remaining in justice for sins unamended. Before death, living in Time, we can’t be said to “be in Heaven NOW”, because there are two ‘nows’ being referred to as if they were somehow a single now.

 

[Linux]

I gottcha

Please don’t listen to this. Its not true

 

[vlf7973]

Lets assume God knows I will go to heaven.

Since God is timeless and therefore his knowledge is timeless, then it must be the case that as far as God is concerned I am already in the eternal now in heaven as we speak experiencing the beatific vision, while at the same time I am not in heaven in the respect of my temporal existence as I am writing this.

Could it be that my heavenly self is watching me right now as I am writing this!!! And if so could I theoretically pray to my self like I would pray to a saint?

Obviously I wouldn’t actually attempt to pray to my self as that would be an act of vanity. I am just asking is it possible that my heavenly self would receive the prayer and if so is it logically possible for him to respond.

I was actually wondering this same thing… my guess (not based on religious teaching) is that it is impossible for that to not be the case, unless the saints are currently bound to our universe’s temporal location despite heaven itself being outside of time.

 

[openmind77]

Lets assume God knows I will go to heaven.

Since God is timeless and therefore his knowledge is timeless, then it must be the case that as far as God is concerned I am already in the eternal now in heaven as we speak experiencing the beatific vision, while at the same time I am not in heaven in the respect of my temporal existence as I am writing this.

Could it be that my heavenly self is watching me right now as I am writing this!!! And if so could I theoretically pray to my self like I would pray to a saint?

Obviously I wouldn’t actually attempt to pray to my self as that would be an act of vanity. I am just asking is it possible that my heavenly self would receive the prayer and if so is it logically possible for him to respond.

This is quite true. Your eternal self is always watching the temporal you and in fact watching over you. There is no need to pray to him - he is already doing his best for you - within the confines of fate and destiny (these terms may be more palatable to Christians than the idea of karma).

What we need to do is to become closer to the eternal self and identify with him (rather than the physical personality) so he can guide us in our temporal life. The goal of spiritual practices like meditation is just that - to become one with our eternal self.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Lets assume God knows I will go to heaven.

Since God is timeless and therefore his knowledge is timeless, then it must be the case that as far as God is concerned I am already in the eternal now in heaven as we speak experiencing the beatific vision, while at the same time I am not in heaven in the respect of my temporal existence as I am writing this.

Could it be that my heavenly self is watching me right now as I am writing this!!! And if so could I theoretically pray to my self like I would pray to a saint?

Obviously I wouldn’t actually attempt to pray to my self as that would be an act of vanity. I am just asking is it possible that my heavenly self would receive the prayer and if so is it logically possible for him to respond.

No. God may know what your eventual end will be. But we still have to live it out. Right now we are not in eternity. He knows us as living in time and in His created universe. He also knows the future outcome of our lives. But those are two different realities. He cannot know us as actually being in heaven when we are actually on earth. That would be a violation of the principle of non-contradiction. So no matter how clever the scenereo we construct He cannot violate it. We cannot be in two places at the same time, so he cannot know us as actually being in two places at the same time.

Linus2nd

 

[Michael57]

Could it be that my heavenly self is watching me right now as I am writing this!!! And if so could I theoretically pray to my self like I would pray to a saint?

Sounds like the last scene in C.S. Lewis’ “Great Divorce” - but the imagery was more daunting, as if the Soul watched on edge and in near terror as the Person acted in his life.

Interesting book about the possibilities, even of Purgatory. Lewis sounded almost crypto-catholic in it.

 

[vlf7973]

No. God may know what your eventual end will be. But we still have to live it out. Right now we are not in eternity. He knows us as living in time and in His created universe. He also knows the future outcome of our lives. But those are two different realities. He cannot know us as actually being in heaven when we are actually on earth. That would be a violation of the principle of non-contradiction. So no matter how clever the scenereo we construct He cannot violate it. We cannot be in two places at the same time, so he cannot know us as actually being in two places at the same time.

Linus2nd

It’s not a violation of the law of noncontradiction when you think of a human as a four-dimensional time worm that remains stationary in time-space rather than a three-dimensional man who is moving forward through time-space.
God has already seen me die because God exists outside of our universe and he can see the entire worm that is me (i.e. he sees the end of the worm which represents the point that I leave this world). I have not seen myself die because it hasn’t happened yet and I can only see myself as a man who is an infintely thin slice of the worm (i.e. I can only see myslef in the present moment).

That said, even though heaven is outside of time, I would think that the saints, and the angels, and Jesus are all restrained to some extent. I don’t know if they are bound to our universe’s timeline, but if they were completely unrestrained then they would be able to see our universe’s entire timeline including the end of the world. But we know that they cannot do that because Jesus himself said that the only person who knows when the end of the world will come is the Father.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

It’s not a violation of the law of noncontradiction when you think of a human as a four-dimensional time worm that remains stationary in time-space rather than a three-dimensional man who is moving forward through time-space.
God has already seen me die because God exists outside of our universe and he can see the entire worm that is me (i.e. he sees the end of the worm which represents the point that I leave this world). I have not seen myself die because it hasn’t happened yet and I can only see myself as a man who is an infintely thin slice of the worm (i.e. I can only see myslef in the present moment)

The first lesson Catholics need to learn is to know and live their faith ( as explained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church). Nothing is to be gained by creating fanciful scenereos which really have nothing to do with what life is about. We cannot explain how God knows us, except, as our Creator, He obviously does. He certainly is not dependent on any " scientific " theories for His knowledge. Such speculations are meaningless…

That said, even though heaven is outside of time, I would think that the saints, and the angels, and Jesus are all restrained to some extent. I don’t know if they are bound to our universe’s timeline, but if they were completely unrestrained then they would be able to see our universe’s entire timeline including the end of the world. But we know that they cannot do that because Jesus himself said that the only person who knows when the end of the world will come is the Father.

Angels are regarded as messangers of God, At present they, like us, exist in the created universe. They have " jobs " to do in relation to the carrying out of God’s plan for our salvation. The precise extent of their power is unknown but they do interact with our material world, which is seen in the Scriptures.

And the precise liberty of the Saints is not known either. Probably their activity is limited to Heaven unless God sends them on a mission.

Linus2nd

 

[Linux]

No. God may know what your eventual end will be. But we still have to live it out. Right now we are not in eternity. He knows us as living in time and in His created universe. He also knows the future outcome of our lives. But those are two different realities. He cannot know us as actually being in heaven when we are actually on earth. That would be a violation of the principle of non-contradiction. So no matter how clever the scenereo we construct He cannot violate it. We cannot be in two places at the same time, so he cannot know us as actually being in two places at the same time.

Linus2nd

God is either timeless or he is not. If he is, then it follows necessarily that he has actual knowledge of people as both experiencing the beatific vision and relative to this fact living in time in the hear and now before that experience. There is nothing contradictory about that idea. Gods knowledge is one and is not divided by time indexes. To use an imperfect analogy, God’s “today” is your tomorrow. For God, the end of the world has already happened.

Foreknowledge in God is not to be thought of as knowing things before they happen, for that is metaphysically impossible since you cannot have actual knowledge of that which does not yet exist. Rather God is timelessly present to all time, and therefore knows all events as one “eternal now”.

Nobody needs your permission to know this as fact, and neither do i need the permission of the church to know this is true, for if Catholics believe that God can do the metaphysically impossible then as far as I am concerned that God does not exist and the catholic faith is false at least in this respect.

My faith is always open to a rational disproof. On other-words I do not perceive my self as have an infallible faith that cannot be questioned by logic. I simply do not have that cult mentality. And if that puts me out church, then so be it for my dignity as a rational being is more important.

 

[Aloysium]

:twocents:

I would suppose that a Saint in heaven, even a sinner in hell sees his life (Certainlt the wealthy man in the parable of Lazarus did).
One’s past is present in life to review to the best of the capacities of one’s brain.
I get the sense that when I will be on my death bed my life will appear as having happened in a flash.
One’s soul, separated from its dead body could have total access to the events of its existence on earth.
That could be what would make it heaven or hell (purgatory being an aspect of heaven preceding the Beatific Vision); there’s no turning back from one’s actions in life, and no connection to the “wealth” that was not God that one wasted one’s life pursuing. In the presence of infinite love, how would we measure up? Fortunately, we have Christ who redeemed us.

 

[franklinstower]

God is either timeless or he is not. If he is, then it follows necessarily that he has actual knowledge of people as both experiencing the beatific vision and relative to this fact living in time in the hear and now before that experience. There is nothing contradictory about that idea. Gods knowledge is one and is not divided by time indexes. To use an imperfect analogy, God’s “today” is your tomorrow. For God, the end of the world has already happened.

Foreknowledge in God is not to be thought of as knowing things before they happen, for that is metaphysically impossible since you cannot have actual knowledge of that which does not yet exist. Rather God is timelessly present to all time, and therefore knows all events as one “eternal now”.

Nobody needs your permission to know this as fact, and neither do i need the permission of the church to know this is true, for if Catholics believe that God can do the metaphysically impossible then as far as I am concerned that God does not exist and the catholic faith is false at least in this respect.

***FranklinsTower said–

I don’t personally think there is anything wrong with you having this opinion about things but don’t you think it is error to be arguing about it as if it is actual knowledge? This is all speculation so why be so attached to your perspective? I don’t mean let it go, but why be so attached? How important is it to be right here when none of us really knows for sure?***

 

[Skye_Ariel]

It’s not a violation of the law of noncontradiction when you think of a human as a four-dimensional time worm that remains stationary in time-space rather than a three-dimensional man who is moving forward through time-space.
God has already seen me die because God exists outside of our universe and he can see the entire worm that is me (i.e. he sees the end of the worm which represents the point that I leave this world). I have not seen myself die because it hasn’t happened yet and I can only see myself as a man who is an infintely thin slice of the worm (i.e. I can only see myslef in the present moment).

That said, even though heaven is outside of time, I would think that the saints, and the angels, and Jesus are all restrained to some extent. I don’t know if they are bound to our universe’s timeline, but if they were completely unrestrained then they would be able to see our universe’s entire timeline including the end of the world. But we know that they cannot do that because Jesus himself said that the only person who knows when the end of the world will come is the Father.

The whole thing is interesting to think about and will remain a mystery to us till we cross over.

 

[Michael57]

Nobody needs your permission to know this as fact, and neither do i need the permission of the church to know this is true, for if Catholics believe that God can do the metaphysically impossible then as far as I am concerned that God does not exist and the catholic faith is false at least in this respect.

My faith is always open to a rational disproof. On other-words I do not perceive my self as have an infallible faith that cannot be questioned by logic. I simply do not have that cult mentality. And if that puts me out church, then so be it for my dignity as a rational being is more important.

So then, why are you here?

Are you here to teach us that there is no god through your logic proofs?

I am curious how you can disprove the Creator.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

The thing that really gonna bake your noodle later on is this: if you hadn’t prayed to yourself for intercession, would you have even made it to heaven?

Ahhh, I love paradoxes!