Is the soul and the spirit the same thing?

[frankblahnik]

From a review of this thread it looks like no one knows what the soul is. That makes the question of what the spirit is irrelevant, but no matter since no one seems to know what that is either.

Curious, isn’t it, that the entity we are all pushing to get into heaven or keep out of hell is not clearly defined.

The 17th century philosopher/mathematician Rene Descartes defined soul as mind. It makes sense. Must not the entity which gets rewarded or punished for actions be the same entity which controlled the actions. What is this but mind?

Put another way, would you particularly care if promised that in return for living a good life, your gall bladder would go to heaven?

Memory is part of the package. What would be the point of your going to heaven or hell without any idea of how you got there?

Mind involves, among other factors, both memory and consciousness. A meaningful afterlife would seem to require both. What would be the point of going to heaven in a coma?

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut to this thread greylorn. There has been a lot of excellent insights throughout this thread into the definition of soul and spirit. I am not expert on the subject and I appreciate all the feedback I can get. The mind does seem rather relevant to soul, but I don’t believe mind and soul are the same.
Do you love with your mind? You make the decision to love with your mind, but your mind is not the part of you that is love. Soul fills with love and transforms the mind. Soul animates the body. Sure the brain sends the signals to the body, but soul working with the mind is what makes us who we are.

Spirit seems more like a tool the soul uses for transfering information. Unless you are talking Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit is the love of God and Jesus that transfers divine information.

Heart would be the flame in your soul. The fuel that runs the soul.

It’s pretty late. Is any of this making sense? I’m going to bed.

 

[greylorn]

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut to this thread greylorn. There has been a lot of excellent insights throughout this thread into the definition of soul and spirit. I am not expert on the subject and I appreciate all the feedback I can get. The mind does seem rather relevant to soul, but I don’t believe mind and soul are the same.
Do you love with your mind? You make the decision to love with your mind, but your mind is not the part of you that is love. Soul fills with love and transforms the mind. Soul animates the body. Sure the brain sends the signals to the body, but soul working with the mind is what makes us who we are.

Spirit seems more like a tool the soul uses for transfering information. Unless you are talking Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit is the love of God and Jesus that transfers divine information.

Heart would be the flame in your soul. The fuel that runs the soul.

It’s pretty late. Is any of this making sense? I’m going to bed.

It does make sense, knowing that you, like I, are a being composed of different components, one of them emotional, the other rational. This causes confusion.

If you acknowledge that mind is relevant to soul, how about sitting down earlier in your day and figuring out how you think they might be related. I’d like to see what you come up with. Take your time, for this is not a trivial subject. You may want to first read Descartes’ thoughts on this issue. His was a powerful mind, and he was a devout Catholic. He laid the mathematical groundwork for Newton’s calculus. The Cartesian coordinate systems used ubiquitously are his invention— clearly a wide-ranging mind.

Love is always an interesting topic, one I’ve had to deal with many times from different levels. I’ve been in love with females. I’ve loved my offspring. I’ve wept at the icons representing one of the Gods of my childhood and passed out serving the stations of the cross. And I agree with your analysis, I think.

Your dictionary will have about a dozen different definitions of love, so to pursue a discussion we need to clarify the kind of love under discussion. Teenage love, and its transmogrifications as we age, is just brain-level chemistry, a combination of pheromones and programming. Material-level attraction, the same kind of stuff that makes your dog want to propagate its species.

There is another kind of love which kicks in when we get to know someone, and like them, then cherish them. That, too, is brain-level affinity. True love comes from mind (soul). It is always a choice.

Love stuff aside, since we seem to be kicking around ideas about the nature of soul, how about coming up with a functional definition of soul? What are the soul’s properties? What does it actually do?

Once we get a handle on those basic subjects (Engineering 101) we might even go on to ask why the darn thing exists.

 

[frankblahnik]

Greylorn,

Thank you for the recommendation of Rene Descartes. I have added some of his works to my amazon wish list.

The kind love I’m talking about refering to the soul is the kind of love some men/women have to cause them to risk their life and jump into the freezing water to save a stranger even though they have a family who depends on them at home. (or something like that…you know, the Jesus kind of love)

I’ll have to get back to you on a functional definition of the soul, but it is a good question. What are the soul’s properties? What does it actually do? All good questions.

 

[JDaniel]

Catholicism defines the soul as “that internal static that informs the mind and animates the body”. Utilizing the mind, it reasons, senses, abstracts, calculates, wills, and keeps the involuntary parts of our beings running, so to speak. Aquinas views the soul as the necessary outcome of the union of primary matter and form.

When we think of matter, prior to being determined by form, we think of it as “infinite”, because it has not yet been determined by form. At this point, it could receive form from an infinite number of possible forms. However, it is not “perfected” form, as has not been received by matter.

Also, when we think of form, prior to being received by matter, and not yet determined by it, we think of it as infinite because it has not yet been received by matter. At this point, it could be received by an infinite source of matter. Once it is received of matter, it too is “perfected”.

Upon these two principles of the soul becoming one, as a living soul (being), they “perfect” each other and, at the same time, cause the resulting living soul (being) to become finite. Yet, the prior infinite “natures” of primary matter and fom cannot be completely annihilated from the result (being) as they are the determining principles of that being. This is what I mean by “static”.

The Laws of Thermodynamics and Special and General Relativity, including String Theory, are irrelevant as they deal with the mechanics of such things as energy and matter, not the principles of things such as souls and minds.

God bless,
JD

 

[JDaniel]

Greylorn,

Thank you for the recommendation of Rene Descartes. I have added some of his works to my amazon wish list.

The kind love I’m talking about refering to the soul is the kind of love some men/women have to cause them to risk their life and jump into the freezing water to save a stranger even though they have a family who depends on them at home. (or something like that…you know, the Jesus kind of love)

I’ll have to get back to you on a functional definition of the soul, but it is a good question. What are the soul’s properties? What does it actually do? All good questions.

Frank:

I won’t say that Descartes is not worth reading - as I believe all “philosophers” are probably worth some reading - but, his primary claim to fame is not his philosophy. Rather, it is his influence as a mathematician. In philosophy, he is noted for his theorem, “I think, therefore, I am”. Personally, I think he got it backwards.

God bless,
JD

 

[AndyF]

teachccd:

I heard perhaps wrongly that the soul is limited only by it’s pairing with the body. So then why can’t the soul post physical death fend off the attacks of evil spirits in the afterlife if there is only one definition of spirit.?

It would seem the soul once released from this physical impediment should present quite an opposition of evil on the bases of it’s singular nature alone. ie: for beginners, attempts of destruction of either would be futile.

I guess what I’m really asking is what are the various differences of spirit natures.

Andy

 

[greylorn]

Greylorn,

Thank you for the recommendation of Rene Descartes. I have added some of his works to my amazon wish list.

The kind love I’m talking about refering to the soul is the kind of love some men/women have to cause them to risk their life and jump into the freezing water to save a stranger even though they have a family who depends on them at home. (or something like that…you know, the Jesus kind of love)

I’ll have to get back to you on a functional definition of the soul, but it is a good question. What are the soul’s properties? What does it actually do? All good questions.

Save yourself a few bucks. Google “cogito ergo sum” and you’ll be into Descartes’ thinking the easy way.

You are I have entirely different concepts of love. I’ve heard of a guy who jumped off a bridge into floodwaters to save a dog which had just fallen in. The dog swam safely back to shore. The idiot drowned (it turned out that he had never learned to swim) leaving 3 or 4 kids and a wife to fend for themselves. My guess is that they were better off.

But that’s not love— that’s just a programmed reaction of an unthinking brain. It does not relate to Jesus in the slightest.

Jesus is an entity who, before coming to this planet for a spate of teaching work, thought aforehand about doing so. He planned the timing and placement of his birth so that his ideas would be spread, like a virus, in the expanding Roman empire. He came to earth in the only place and time where his teachings would have impact. He knew in advance the difficulties He would face, and the torture and betrayals He would undergo.

That’s not at all a programmed reaction, not at all like jumping in to save a dog or a stranger.

Those are my thoughts on the matter, for what they might be worth to you. I shall anticipate your contributions on the functional definition of soul!

 

[Daluz]

I have a question about the whole mind and soul thing. If the mind is damaged (let’s say an accident that caused brain damaged.) Personality can be changed from that, and they don’t react the same way anymore, and might do something that is sinful, what would happen to the soul?

Also I knew someone that was a normal kid until they enter puberty and had a chemical imbalance happen in the brain, that caused him to lose reality in a way that he became a danger to himself and others, how would his soul be effect by this?

If this has been answer before sorry for the repeat but I never found anything about this yet.

 

[Michael_David]

I have a question about the whole mind and soul thing. If the mind is damaged (let’s say an accident that caused brain damaged.) Personality can be changed from that, and they don’t react the same way anymore, and might do something that is sinful, what would happen to the soul?

Also I knew someone that was a normal kid until they enter puberty and had a chemical imbalance happen in the brain, that caused him to lose reality in a way that he became a danger to himself and others, how would his soul be effect by this?

If this has been answer before sorry for the repeat but I never found anything about this yet.

Welcome Daluz,

For me, this is the chicken or the egg paradox.

Did something happen with the soul that caused changes in the body; or did something happen in the body that can change the soul?

In my own thoughts, I’d personally say that since life emanates from the soul with/through the body, that something occurred in the soul first then moved to be seen in the body. Although, ones environment can lend changes to the body that do not touch the soul.

In essence, physical things can effect the body; spiritual things can effect the soul… and since both interact with each other, the actual affects to the other may show in a reactive way, while not really being changed by it.

So, yes and no. It depends. Perhaps. One has to look at the situation and what caused it. Then, even with our knowledge, are we able to know what the cause is? Christ did many miracles, but He was both God and Man… He was on both levels when these miracles were done. So which level effected the particular miracle? Faith seems to be necessary for these to occur… and on what level is Faith?

I guess, God knows… and we seek to know…

 

[frankblahnik]

I shall anticipate your contributions on the functional definition of soul!

It’s a secret.

 

[greylorn]

I have a question about the whole mind and soul thing. If the mind is damaged (let’s say an accident that caused brain damaged.) Personality can be changed from that, and they don’t react the same way anymore, and might do something that is sinful, what would happen to the soul?

Also I knew someone that was a normal kid until they enter puberty and had a chemical imbalance happen in the brain, that caused him to lose reality in a way that he became a danger to himself and others, how would his soul be effect by this?

If this has been answer before sorry for the repeat but I never found anything about this yet.

This kind of thing happens more often during neurosurgery. The only effective way to understand it is to adopt the principles of Cartesian Dualism. This means that we have two distinct mental mechanisms.

The brain, which psychology identifies as the sub-conscious.

The soul, the embodiment of consciousness which survives the body’s demise and has some kind of afterlife. This is recognized as the super-conscious mind.

That which we commonly refer to as the “mind” and which psychology mistakenly identifies as the conscious mind, is a composite of these two entities.

The afflicted individual’s behavior can be attributed to the destruction or attenuation of the part of brain which attaches to soul. That leaves a soul no longer in control of its brain-body system, or even disconnected from it entirely. Either way, no one is home anymore.

The soul won’t be affected unless it is hanging tenuously onto its brain-body connection and might learn from the experience not to take drugs next lifetime. If it is totally disconnected, I doubt that it can learn anything and will not be affected except in the same sense that it would be affected by death.

There is a book on this subject, “The Soul of Anna Klane.”

 

[Daluz]

This kind of thing happens more often during neurosurgery. The only effective way to understand it is to adopt the principles of Cartesian Dualism. This means that we have two distinct mental mechanisms.

The brain, which psychology identifies as the sub-conscious.

The soul, the embodiment of consciousness which survives the body’s demise and has some kind of afterlife. This is recognized as the super-conscious mind.

That which we commonly refer to as the “mind” and which psychology mistakenly identifies as the conscious mind, is a composite of these two entities.

The afflicted individual’s behavior can be attributed to the destruction or attenuation of the part of brain which attaches to soul. That leaves a soul no longer in control of its brain-body system, or even disconnected from it entirely. Either way, no one is home anymore.

The soul won’t be affected unless it is hanging tenuously onto its brain-body connection and might learn from the experience not to take drugs next lifetime. If it is totally disconnected, I doubt that it can learn anything and will not be affected except in the same sense that it would be affected by death.

There is a book on this subject, “The Soul of Anna Klane.”

Thanks, I will look into the book and see if I can get a copy as it looks to be out of print.

 

[jkiernan56]

Yes, your soul is indeed more than just energy. Your soul comprises your being made in the very image and likeness of God. While your heart is a physical component of your body, many use this organ to represent core of who we are. It is more symbolism than a reality since the heart dies with the body merely because it is an organ within the body. I hope that this helps…teachccd

Heart can also refer to a person’s soul. In one of the Gospels Christ says “where ever your treasure lies, there you will find yor HEART.” He wasn’t talking about a physical component.

 

[frankblahnik]

Heart can also refer to a person’s soul. In one of the Gospels Christ says “where ever your treasure lies, there you will find yor HEART.” He wasn’t talking about a physical component.

Hi jkiernan,

I agree about the heart having different meanings, and one of them being the soul.

Did you catch my last post in your thread about “God creating the universe out of nothing(or His own potentiality)”?

I was asking if the soul is in a way synonymic of existing/being. That is being without time or space.

Our time and space on earth effects our soul. Soul is effected by time and space. But our soul may be in a dimension outside of time and space.

 

[greylorn]

Thanks, I will look into the book and see if I can get a copy as it looks to be out of print.

Amazon.com has some.

 

[greylorn]

Hi jkiernan,

I agree about the heart having different meanings, and one of them being the soul.

Did you catch my last post in your thread about “God creating the universe out of nothing(or His own potentiality)”?

I was asking if the soul is in a way synonymic of existing/being. That is being without time or space.

Our time and space on earth effects our soul. Soul is effected by time and space. But our soul may be in a dimension outside of time and space.

Not so. If the human soul is a meaningful concept, the soul must be interactive with the brain-body system of humans. This exists in dreadfully normal, non-exotic space and time. In order to interact with it (unless you’ve just invented a brilliant concept of quasi-spacetime that transcends General Relativity and Quantum Electrodynamics), you’d best be content with the idea that if there is such a thing as soul, it too is constrained to dreadfully normal space and time. And to dreadfully normal human beings looking for a way to pretend to be someone special. Alas…

 

[frankblahnik]

Not so. If the human soul is a meaningful concept, the soul must be interactive with the brain-body system of humans. This exists in dreadfully normal, non-exotic space and time. In order to interact with it (unless you’ve just invented a brilliant concept of quasi-spacetime that transcends General Relativity and Quantum Electrodynamics), you’d best be content with the idea that if there is such a thing as soul, it too is constrained to dreadfully normal space and time. And to dreadfully normal human beings looking for a way to pretend to be someone special. Alas…

Hi greylorn,

Thank you for your feedback.

I’ll have to get back to you about the concept of Quasi-Spacetime that transcends general relativity and quantum electrodynamics. That might be exactly what I’m talking about. I just need to figure out how to explain it.

 

[frankblahnik]

Does this sound about right?

The soul functions to inform the mind and animate the body. The spirit is the word to define how the soul works. The heart carries the main mission of the soul.

 

[greylorn]

Does this sound about right?

The soul functions to inform the mind and animate the body. The spirit is the word to define how the soul works. The heart carries the main mission of the soul.

Can’t agree. Wish I could, then I’d have some friends.

The body does not require a “soul” to animate it. The scorpion that bit me last month was fully animated and soul-free. The chimpanzee that starred in a short film derived from a book I wrote, way back when, did not require a soul to animate it. I know. I was there, communicating as best I could with the soulless beastie.

When you are willing to tell me how the word “spirit” expands into a definition of how the soul works, we’lll continue this aspect of our discussion.

The heart pumps blood. Just like in scorpions and chimpanzees.

I am of the opinion that in humans it serves another function. The brain cannot feel pain. (Ask anyone who has undergone open-skull brain surgery, fully conscious.) Pain is useful feedback. Now and then the brain needs to feel pain, so the feedback required comes from another body component. Our designers chose the heart, or the surrounding muscles, as the source of this feedback.

 

[greylorn]

Would the Holy Spirit replace our human spirit? Hmm. Good question. It says (Galatians 2:20) that “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.” And that would seem to indicate that the human spirit is actually replaced, in some sense, by the Spirit of God. Also, John the Baptist says in reference to Christ (John 3:30) that "He must increase that I might decrease. You could maybe also say that we are to give up our spirit when we are in a sense crucified throughout our lives (when we meet trials and so forth), just as Christ gave up his Spirit on the Cross. On the other hand, maybe our human spirit isn’t actually replaced but merely resurrected in harmony with the Holy Spirit. I have no idea. We need to a theologian on this.

I assume, when you ask about “dimensions” of a spirit, you are talking about spacial, quantifiable measurements of the spirit. My inclination is to probably say no … but, on the other hand, you could say that is particular spirit is “here and not there” depending on where’s it acting or simply doing something in the physical universe. Aquinas says the soul is the act of the body, and so you could say that your spirit is, to say the least, where your body happens to be at the time. Also, for purely immaterial spirits (angels and demons), when they act in a physical location in the universe, they are said to actually be there as well (Aquinas says this). So, therefore we could assign some kind of quasi-dimensionality to them.

But then there is the interesting question of bilocation and other such topics. First of all, you mentioned something about astral projection. It seems to be the case (this is my private philosphical and theological speculation) that astral projection and what we call bilocation are very similar, except that bilocation (the thing we see with certain saints) is sanctioned and guided by the Holy Spirit. Astral Projection seems to be possible and manifests itself much like bilocation sometimes (it sends your consciousness far away from you body, and can even produce a life-like representation of your body … an “ethereal” body perhaps … who knows). When someone practices astral projection they become more conscious and can perceive more clearly the spiritual realities around us and can run into other “travellers” along the way, either other Astral Projectors or Angels or Demons. The reason why Astral Projection is condemned by the Church is that you throw yourself into, as it were, a “spiritual ghetto” where demonic spirits can take advantage of you, as you have put yourself into a very vulnerable, sensitive spiritual state. It can mess you up. Bilocation seems to be the term we use for saints (or very spiritual and holy people) moved by the Holy Spirit to do this exact same thing, except, it’s the Holy Spirit that’s guiding and protecting them from malignant forces. Padre Pio, when asked if he could explain what was happening when he bilocated, said something like, “My being was extended.” (I might be wrong. I heard this somewhere.) If something can be extended, it can therefore, in theory, be measured spacially. So, if his spirit was acting in that faraway location, and we say that a spirit is “there” when it’s acting “there,” then we could possibly attribute dimensionality to a spirit in a vague and perhaps somewhat unmeasurable way (I guess). I might be wrong about all this. Any thoughts?

You’ve done your homework. My guess is that you have personally experienced paranormal phenomena. If not, you will. I don’t believe that this, or any website I know of will guide you. The Church has dealt with paranormal issues more effectively than any other belief system I know of, including Spiritualist churches, but has apparently only done so in a reactive manner.

You may be looking for a source of understanding which reaches deeper. There are many which purport to do so. Most are of no consequence because they are ignorant. Some are either direct or incidental sources of evil. Please be careful in your studies.

Carry a bottle of Holy Water that you know to have been consecrated by a priest who you personally trust. Put your own best intentions to learn into that bottle, and at the first sign of psychic attack, sprinkle it upon the pillow on which you sleep.

Before any engagements into these areas of inquiry, establish a working connection with the entity that the Church might refer to as your “guardian angel.” Yours has permission to query mine, if he/she/it is still hanging around.