Is the soul and the spirit the same thing?

[frankblahnik]

Ok, how about this?..

The heart is the eternal mission of the soul.

The soul functions to inform the mind and animate the body.

The soul is effected by our animated body(our actions), and is also effected by our informed mind(our thoughts).

Our soul gives feedback to the mind and body about how it was effected. Kind of like a closed loop servo system.

The spirit is the power that runs the system.

The way we interpret the feedback effects the heart.

 

[bogeydogg]

I think Augustine got it right when he said that the soul is the part of us which is non corporeal. It is that part of us which will exist beyond our grave, prior to our resurrection and be reunited with our bodies in the resurrection. There is no distinction between soul and spirit. Just because the soul is non corporeal does not mean it is any less real. In fact it may be more so. The body itself is that which allows us to experience the physical world, but it is also most certainly a part of us, and since whether in Heaven or in Hell we will be raised up eternally into these bodies the idea of trying to distinguish which is what I think is unnecessary.

As far heart mind spirit etc.

I have a friend who is a Baptist and believes fervently that man is triune as God is triune. Try as I might to convince him that the Church had never accepted this as orthodox he persists. He claims that since the Bible clearly speaks of body, soul and spirit that the three natures are part of our human nature and then tries to draw some sort of parallel to the Trinity.

However I think Scripture itself defeats the argument out of hand. Yes the Bible does say that man is body soul and spirit, but it also talks about heart, mind and strength. If we are to assert that since the Bible speaks of body soul and spirit then man has three natures, then why four natures with the addition of mind? Or five with heart? Or six with strength?

I think when the Bible speaks of soul, spirit, heart, mind, etc. it is using different words for the same thing. To try to determine which is which and where the lines of demarcation are is sort of like trying to figure out how many angels can stand on a pinhead. It is interesting to discuss, but not helpful.

What Scripture makes absolutely clear is that one day all men will face God and go into eternity body and soul, and it is because of this that we are strictly ordered to, “Go into all the world and preach the Gospel baptizing in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

God bless.

 

[greylorn]

Hi greylorn,

Thank you for your feedback.

I’ll have to get back to you about the concept of Quasi-Spacetime that transcends general relativity and quantum electrodynamics. That might be exactly what I’m talking about. I just need to figure out how to explain it.

Frank,

I apologize. I just made up the term “quasi-spacetime”. It seemed a way to imply that I was responding to invented information with more invented information. I hope you weren’t talking about something that I just invented, and if you were, or want to, we should consult first.

But what the heck. If you can find quasi-spacetime on the internet it would not surprise me. But please don’t take that stuff seriously.

No one on this site knows anything about general relativity or quantum electrodynamics except the words. The site is not for physicists. While it would be great if we were, we can’t get to be what we might aspire to be by pretending; we only get there with practice.

I had hoped to get you off the speculative-physics track. The professionals do it badly enough. Forgive, please.

Now that we are on track we can return to a useful point. The question, “Are soul and spirit the same thing?” cannot be answered without definitions of soul and spirit in the context of a reference system.

The only reference system we have is the physical universe and a bit of logic. In lieu of acquiring an understanding of physics,or logic, many religious people resort to definitions of things which are outside of the universe and illogical.

Anyone defining soul or spirit in such a manner can say pretty much whatever they want to about them, because no reference to reality or logic can refute such statements.

 

[greylorn]

Ok, how about this?..

The heart is the eternal mission of the soul.

The soul functions to inform the mind and animate the body.

The soul is effected by our animated body(our actions), and is also effected by our informed mind(our thoughts).

Our soul gives feedback to the mind and body about how it was effected. Kind of like a closed loop servo system.

The spirit is the power that runs the system.

The way we interpret the feedback effects the heart.

Frank,
I admire your persistence, and thank you for the focus you offer me.

I try to approach my understanding of life, especially human life, from a scientific perspective, using the best tools of logic available. (Aristotle’s) I try to adhere to formal definitions of words, never twisting their meaning to make a point. I have found that I learn only when trying to teach, or when arguing a point, and believe me, I am here to learn.

I make a particular point of posting only to threads upon which a question has been posed that can be answered using my perspectives and tools. I NEVER post to threads where the question can invoke only an answer from scripture.

That is because I’ve found that anyone can interpret scripture pretty much however they please. That is why there are lots of “Christian” churches with entirely different beliefs about the nature of man and the purpose of existence, the only subjects really worth discussing because these are the only subjects in which humans are really interested, because they represent bottom-line purpose.

I’ll reply to your statements from my perspectives, with no intention of disparaging yours.

Your definition of “heart” is poetic but useless to heart surgeons. “eternal mission of soul…”? I’ve no idea what you might be talking about. The heart is an organ which pumps blood. It rots along with the body and brain, and the liver.

So, what is your idea of the relationship between the soul and the liver?

“Soul informs the mind.” Of what? How? And, what is the “mind” anyhow?

“Animates the body…”. Does that mean anything or even make a useful distinction? Does the animated scorpion which bit me have a soul? It had a body and was fully animated.

Your next two statements are discussable:

The soul is effected by our animated body(our actions), and is also effected by our informed mind(our thoughts).

Our soul gives feedback to the mind and body about how it was effected. Kind of like a closed loop servo system.

I agree absolutely that there is a two-way feedback system between soul and body. I like your servomotor analogy, but think that too often we operate in open-loop mode.

What happens if you bring your statements into coincidence with reality. What part of the system is brain? What, then, is soul?

The spirit is the power that runs the system.

That statement needs elaboration. Last I knew, ATP (adenosine tri-phospate) provides the power that runs our biological systems, by releasing stored energy which we get from good old food.

I’ve never heard a logical or useful definition of “spirit” in my entire life, and I’m still waiting.

The way we interpret the feedback effects the heart.

You may be right. What feedback do you mean? What exactly is the “we” you mention, which seems to be the interpreter. How does it affect the heart? Why should it?

I’d love to see details and specifics from you. That ought to keep you off the streets for an hour or two.

Have a great year!

 

[frankblahnik]

Try this on for size…

Spirit is like energy. The mind is the tool the soul uses to trasform energy into spirit. The heart is the tool the soul uses to transform spirit back into energy.

Here and now, in this time, body and soul are united as one…Spiritualized bodies…Energized souls.

Eventually the body dies, and the soul continues in a timeless zone either returning to its source or going off on its own.

 

[greylorn]

Try this on for size…

Spirit is like energy. The mind is the tool the soul uses to trasform energy into spirit. The heart is the tool the soul uses to transform spirit back into energy.

Here and now, in this time, body and soul are united as one…Spiritualized bodies…Energized souls.

Eventually the body dies, and the soul continues in a timeless zone either returning to its source or going off on its own.

Frank,
Few words, rich with conversational potential. Honestly, I cannot get a handle on what you are saying. For me, that would mean translating your words into coherent concepts. I’d like to ask a few questions which might help.

Let’s start from the beginning. I’ve done some physics so I think that I know what energy is. Please clarify what you mean by, “like energy,” because I’ve no idea what you might be talking about. Do the laws of thermodynamics apply? If soul is “like” energy, the implication is that it is slightly different. What is the difference?

We ought to deal with that issue before going on to the other stuff you wrote.

 

[frankblahnik]

Frank,
Few words, rich with conversational potential. Honestly, I cannot get a handle on what you are saying. For me, that would mean translating your words into coherent concepts. I’d like to ask a few questions which might help.

Let’s start from the beginning. I’ve done some physics so I think that I know what energy is. Please clarify what you mean by, “like energy,” because I’ve no idea what you might be talking about. Do the laws of thermodynamics apply? If soul is “like” energy, the implication is that it is slightly different. What is the difference?

We ought to deal with that issue before going on to the other stuff you wrote.

One way to try and describe it would be to say the soul uses the mind to transform thoughts(energy) into emotions(spirit). And the soul uses the heart to transform emotions(spirit) into actions(energy).

 

[Barclay]

Three categories of substance are named in the Bible - spirit, soul and body. Material, matter and mass all refer to substance that has inertia towards applied forces and is susceptible to gravitational force. Spirit, in its greater part, has no inertia and is capable of transcending gravity completely… Soul is understood to be an inbetween substance - by analogy spirit is like gas, soul like liquid and body like solid. The original word for spirit is breath which implies that spirit is gas and usually in motion and that much of it has mass. The soul of humanity was said in Moses’ teaching to be in the blood which is of course liquid. And, as we all experience, bodies are largely solid. So we have a sliding scale with three graduations of mass-holding density… Soul in Greek has the meaning ‘cool-ic’ which is reminiscent of the cooling of the body through the evaporation of sweat from the surface, also the blood temperature maintains the body temperature. There is the observation in nature that gases of a material are hotter than the liquid forms which are in turn hotter than the solid for any constant pressure… Physical is a word often used to mean material yet its root meaning is ‘natural’ and nature transcends the body and soul (Light for instance is studied in the study of natural science or physics - light is compared with spirit in scripture in that God is called Spirit and Light. Light in nature moves fast and is low in mass so light qualifies as being a spiritual substance). Spirit is not indicated as being wholely independent of gravity or wholey without mass in scripture but very comparable to the wind… Spirit, soul and body all appear in nature yet are also imaginable as part of other imaginary universes. Spirit - the more transcendent part of natural material - for instance, light, electricity and gases seems very much the substance that the greater modes of thinking are usually made up of in the mind. Soul is linked, in the Bible, to biological life - in the account of Noah’s flood all animals that had souls were threatened with extinction.

Scripture reveals that God is Spirit rather than soul or body, yet He does have a Soul (Ps 11:5) and in Jesus had a visible Body and infact God can experience all souls with their various bodily forms as all the creation exists within Him and He exists within each creature. Essentially the statement of Christ that God is Spirit means that God’s material being - spirit, soul and body are spiritual - that is that they are completely ruled from the spiritual part of Him. So soul and body can be understood as spirit with constraints added. Spirit is less constrained - more potent than soul and body. Soul gives life to the body and therefore is less constrained - more potent than body. One spirit may have numerous souls and bodies within its fabric existing as regions where the constraints that limit and define the souls and bodies are active. Also to be considered is that some regions of spirit may be more potent - less constrained - than other regions of spiritual substance within the overall spirit…

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[himynameisjorge]

i dont think anyone can explain it better that John Paul II

Just read Theology of the Body

 

[grannymh]

Definition of Soul

My soul is that which connects me to God.

Blessings,
grannymh