Is the soul sentient?

[Sonny1954]

I’m just looking for peoples’ thoughts. During the interim state between individual death and the general resurrection, do you believe that the soul is able to see, taste, touch and smell? Or do you think it’s dormant like a powerful battery, full of energy, but with no mechanism to animate? Or perhaps do we have an astral body in place of this physical one?

Please share your thoughts.

Thanks

 

[GEddie]

I’m just looking for peoples’ thoughts. During the interim state between individual death and the general resurrection, do you believe that the soul is able to see, taste, touch and smell? Or do you think it’s dormant like a powerful battery, full of energy, but with no mechanism to animate? Or perhaps do we have an astral body in place of this physical one?

Please share your thoughts.

Thanks

Great question!

Clearly, in a “bodiless” state, there can be no sight, touch, smell, etc, or even knowing. For sight, you need eyes; for touch, you need skin and limbs; for smelling, you need a nose and breathing system. And all of these – as well as simple “knowing” – require a working head. Without a body, you’d be simply – nobody!

Yet Scripture describes the “afterlife” state as one of sensation, (Lk 16:19ff; Rv 6:9) as do Christian visionaries. Clearly, then, one is not bodiless, although the flesh body has been lost. One even keeps the memory of one’s life! You need a head for that.

While the term “astral body” is foreign to Christianity, the NT uses the term “pneumatikon soma.”. This is a body formed by the Spirit to live in Eternity, so there is no need to wish in vain for a body. One enters eternity at the moment of one’s death; eternal life will subsume the body of your human life. Your sentience will continue. You are a human being; you will continue to be someBODY!

ICXC NIKA!

 

[Heuchler]

Well you would have your thoughts, but you wouldn’t be like a ghost who just appears to be a body. You wouldn’t be able to smell or anything until the ressurrection of the body, but you wouldnt be sleeping. You would be in Heaven, purgatory, or Hell awaiting the final judgement. So, it would be a lot different from how you are now and we probably won’t feel complete until the ressurrection of the body.

 

[SPBlitz]

I’ve always associated the soul with the mind, so I’m guessing you’d still be able to think after death. But, since the afterlife (probably) exsists outside of space and time - I’d assume that it’s going to be a very different experience to what we’re used to.

 

[GEddie]

I’ve always associated the soul with the mind, so I’m guessing you’d still be able to think after death. But, since the afterlife (probably) exsists outside of space and time - I’d assume that it’s going to be a very different experience to what we’re used to.

Your mind is indeed a faculty of the human soul in your body, although not the soul in it’s entirety; but you still need to have a head to process and hold your thoughts and knowledge.

Heaven is indeed beyond time, but not beyond space, since even the pneumatikon soma, like our LORD’s, needs some kind of dimension to swing it’s limbs around in. And if there are things to see, smell, etc; those things have to be some “where”.

ICXC NIKA!

 

[puzzleannie]

I’m just looking for peoples’ thoughts. During the interim state between individual death and the general resurrection, do you believe that the soul is able to see, taste, touch and smell?

I don’t understand the question
my soul does not see, taste, touch, hear and smell now, my body does that
my soul knows, loves and understands beyond the senses and that will not change

that whole astral body whoo-haaah I will just ignore.

 

[Sair]

How can sentience be achieved without physical substance?

Not to sound flippant, but whenever we describe a ‘place’ or a ‘thing’, or even an ‘awareness’, we are talking and thinking about physical states of being. What awareness is even possible without physicality, and how would anyone know?

 

[Fink]

How can sentience be achieved without physical substance?

Not to sound flippant, but whenever we describe a ‘place’ or a ‘thing’, or even an ‘awareness’, we are talking and thinking about physical states of being. What awareness is even possible without physicality, and how would anyone know?

The immortal spiritual soul is the seat of the intellect and the will; and is what separates us from all other animals. “Man is a rational animal.”, the “rational” attribute being the intellect.
So, between death and bodily resurrection, there will be plenty of sentient activity.

In this life, our intellects are limited by our defective, very physical brains; and were generally not aware of the souls activity, as such. A genuine mystical experience would be a sign of contact with the Supernatural by way of the spiritual soul.

An angel, good or fallen, is pure spirit, just like a human soul, and also consists “only” of intellect and will.
Pure spirits have their own way of knowing and communicating; and we`ll know about it when we die.

 

[Sair]

The immortal spiritual soul is the seat of the intellect and the will; and is what separates us from all other animals. “Man is a rational animal.”, the “rational” attribute being the intellect.

Yet it’s clear that intellect exists in other animals. What seems to set humans apart from other animals is imagination - the ability to compass and believe things that do not actually exist.

So, between death and bodily resurrection, there will be plenty of sentient activity.

How do you know this?

In this life, our intellects are limited by our defective, very physical brains; and were generally not aware of the souls activity, as such. A genuine mystical experience would be a sign of contact with the Supernatural by way of the spiritual soul.

In what ways are our brains ‘defective’? How do we know that the soul even exists, let alone undertakes any activity, if we can’t detect it? What is the difference between a genuine mystical experience and a delusion? How do you know such ‘experiences’ are not defects of the brain? With what might you compare them?

An angel, good or fallen, is pure spirit, just like a human soul, and also consists “only” of intellect and will.

Will without the ability to do anything must be incredibly frustrating…

Pure spirits have their own way of knowing and communicating; and we`ll know about it when we die.

That seems a little late to be investing belief in such things here and now.

 

[levinas12]

How do you know this?

The perennial question …

… but there are ‘hints’ of immortality even in a natural context … e.g., the beautiful, the noble, the good …

… and then, there’s faith in Jesus’ resurrection … based on the most “in-your-face” story of all time (with “peculiar” unexpected details) … backed up by the voluntary death of martyrs who did not appear to be clinically insane … and believed by some very smart people for 2000 years*

*this belief is not like outmoded science (e.g. geocentrism, etc) - the ancients (e.g.,Aristotle) would have found the Resurrection totally preposterous - and medieval Christians (e.g., Aquinas) did not base their belief in the Resurrection on “scientific” or philosophical reasons …

 

[wcknight]

The soul is spiritual in nature. That is, it is supernatural. I think you continue to hear, see and think only a whole lot better. You no longer have a physical presense or physical senses but the supernatural part of you, your soul has all those funstions and more.

When a couple of friends of mine passed away, one returned briefly on the day before the death of the other, and told him. “Everything is as we thought it would be.”

That to me, says, that thought, sight and senses remained or at least something similar to what we experience now.

Folks who have NDE’s claim similar experiences.

People who are afraid of death, fear the loss of feeling and conciousness. That I think is not the case.

 

[levinas12]

Great question!

Clearly, in a “bodiless” state, there can be no sight, touch, smell, etc, or even knowing. For sight, you need eyes; for touch, you need skin and limbs; for smelling, you need a nose and breathing system. And all of these – as well as simple “knowing” – require a working head. Without a body, you’d be simply – nobody!

Yet Scripture describes the “afterlife” state as one of sensation, (Lk 16:19ff; Rv 6:9) as do Christian visionaries. Clearly, then, one is not bodiless, although the flesh body has been lost. One even keeps the memory of one’s life! You need a head for that.

While the term “astral body” is foreign to Christianity, the NT uses the term “pneumatikon soma.”. This is a body formed by the Spirit to live in Eternity, so there is no need to wish in vain for a body. One enters eternity at the moment of one’s death; eternal life will subsume the body of your human life. Your sentience will continue. You are a human being; you will continue to be someBODY!

ICXC NIKA!

Doesn’t the Church teach that there an interval between our particular death and the resurrection of the body. During this interval, we will not have a body of any sort. We will be in some immaterial state.

But this does not necessarily mean that we cannot know what is going on in the material world. Granted, it will not be based on bodily sensation. It may be analogous to the knowledge that angels have of the material world.

But there will remain an important difference between us and the angels. We will still have a “longing” for our bodies and our knowledge in our immaterial state will be “incomplete” compared to angelic knowledge.

Of course, I don’t know whether all this requires supernatural intervention or can happen “naturally”.

 

[midori]

Oh, sure. You hear about NDE’s all the time, where they describe beautiful music, or vibrant color, or sweet-smelling flowers, or so on. Physically, if your nose (or brain!) doesn’t work properly, you can’t appreciate the scent of flowers. Or if you have a poor sense of hearing, or are just tone deaf, it’s hard or impossible to appreciate sound.

We know the general resurrection hasn’t happened yet, but we also know that, say for example, the saints are very conscious and alive and working hard on the Other Side. So obviously, there’s no spiritual dormancy going on.

As far as the details go, I don’t really have anything specific in mind. I need to read more on dualism-- the concept that the soul is the seat of the intellect, of consciousness, and of self-awareness, whereas the brain is merely the seat of intelligence. But I have no doubt that after death I’ll be far more “aware” of things than I am now that I’m limited by my physical senses.

 

[Fink]

Yet it’s clear that intellect exists in other animals. What seems to set humans apart from other animals is imagination - the ability to compass and believe things that do not actually exist.

What youre calling imagination is part of the intellect; and a vital part of it. The ability to have concepts of things that do, or do not, exist, and abstract realities, but are outside of our immediate awareness: cat, dog, stars, life, death, self-awareness ad infinitum. In other words, the other animals dont have intellects.

If your definition of the word “intellect” says otherwise: so be it.
ill stick with the Churchs

How do you know this?

Because i believe in the existence of the immortal spiritual soul, with its intellect and will. That Science cant detect it doesnt disprove its existence. This belief didnt happen overnight; but grew over decades. A buildup of evidence. Its not the sort of thing which can be answered in a handful of words.
Why dont you start a thread in this philosophy sub-forum. im not a philosopher.

In what ways are our brains ‘defective’?

Our brains limit the activity of our intellects.
They prevent us from being directly aware of the Supernatural.

How do we know that the soul even exists, let alone undertakes any activity, if we can’t detect it?

Because of your perspective (pantheistic), theres probably no point in saying anything; but its a pretty stunted “Reality” if it consists only of an impersonal universe, with some very limited sentient beings!
The spiritual opens it up, and gives it ultimate meaning, even if we humans can`t fully grasp it in this life.

What is the difference between a genuine mystical experience and a delusion? How do you know such ‘experiences’ are not defects of the brain? With what might you compare them?

Thats for the Church to work out, with her 2,000 years of Holy Spirit-guided wisdom. Its beyond the competence of individuals. Yes, i do believe in the Catholic Church.

Because youre a pantheist, were on different wavelengths. And, as a pantheist, how do you “know” what you believe is right?

Again, im not a philosopher. Start a separate thread on all of this. Its one thing to be convinced: it`s another thing to put it into words.

Will without the ability to do anything must be incredibly frustrating…

God is “only” spirit, and yet, is omnipotent. His intellect and will are so powerful (infinite) that He brings Creation into being.
And, no: He cant will Himself out of existence, or reduce Himself in some way...... He cant make Himself anything less than Infinite.
He`s eternal, and outside of space and time.

The nature of the angels means that theyre not restricted to a specific point in space: theyre not in space at all. A spirit is wherever his intellect and will are focused; but thats speaking metaphorically; so a spirit can "move" at the speed of thought. Not exactly restrictive! The angels have such powerful intellects and wills that they can "do" things: eg manipulate matter to form an image. Theres awareness of all of the other angels, plus, of course, the Beatific Vision (of God)!

Being spirit, our souls arent in or beside our bodies: theyre focused (intellect and will yet again) on them, animating them.

Not being able to comprehend the spiritual doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

That seems a little late to be investing belief in such things here and now.

In what way?

Theres a book titled "Theology and Sanity" by Frank Sheed, and published by Ignatius Press. It covers all of this, and a lot more. i cant find it right now to quote from it; so im crippled! :blush: ***Sorry!*** i cant do any better without reference to that book…

 

[paduard]

Doesn’t the Church teach that there an interval between our particular death and the resurrection of the body. During this interval, we will not have a body of any sort. We will be in some immaterial state.

But this does not necessarily mean that we cannot know what is going on in the material world. Granted, it will not be based on bodily sensation. It may be analogous to the knowledge that angels have of the material world.

But there will remain an important difference between us and the angels. We will still have a “longing” for our bodies and our knowledge in our immaterial state will be “incomplete” compared to angelic knowledge.

Of course, I don’t know whether all this requires supernatural intervention or can happen “naturally”.

Yes I go along with that - particularly the third paragraph.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

I’m just looking for peoples’ thoughts. During the interim state between individual death and the general resurrection, do you believe that the soul is able to see, taste, touch and smell? Or do you think it’s dormant like a powerful battery, full of energy, but with no mechanism to animate? Or perhaps do we have an astral body in place of this physical one?

Please share your thoughts.

Thanks

The immediate will is the biological will. Most people use their immediate will together with their faith. Its not really a faith at all as the will is simply following a program without interfering with the paradox .
As such, most think that the soul is somehow the thinking person inside your brain and that everything BUT your body will leave the grave…too bad …its not true, and rightly so.

Most people will have zero existence after death because their essence of self is represented in faith by the immediate will. which unfortunately is biological and given since birth.

The will and the soul will not and cannot escape the grave unless the soul is alive indifferent of the biological immediate will. Therefore illusions of the biological self…“less the body” in existence after death are not only illogical and impossible for it, but a sure ticket in absolute
self extinction at death. The will to have and explore the paradox throughout life in keeping
with the calling for faith is what faith is. Remember…no one comes to me but through the father

The immediate will has no dialectic, critical ongoing examination for truth, no reconciliation,
The believer annuls his very own idea of faith by leaping to the absolute…there is no faith.

Most will perish as dust in the wind as dust was all that was offered in an active interest to unfold the parodox…we were not given reason, without a reason Use it or loose it all.
This should be a thread due to the lack of theological education in this forum:thumbsup:

 

[Sonny1954]

Respectfully I would suggest that, if in Heaven, we have a longing for our bodies, then happiness in Heaven is not complete. At least that would be the case for the first however many thousands of years after our death and before the general resurrection.

And on the flip-side, how bad could Hell be, at least until the soul is finally reunited with its body?

 

[GEddie]

Respectfully I would suggest that, if in Heaven, we have a longing for our bodies, then happiness in Heaven is not complete. At least that would be the case for the first however many thousands of years after our death and before the general resurrection.

And on the flip-side, how bad could Hell be, at least until the soul is finally reunited with its body?

Good point. Added to that is that even “intellectual processing”, at least for human beings (we are not spirits), requires a head to operate. You can no more “think” without your head than you can move without your limbs.

Scriptural and saintly accounts of human eschatology always describe not a philosophical half-being, but a sensational experience. The “Rich Man” of LK 16 had eyes, voice and tongue, and Lazarus presumably had limbs, since he could move and be held by Abraham (as well as dip his finger). This even though the RM had brothers who were still living life.

The “souls” in Rv6 evidently have a form that a “robe” can be draped over, as well as eyes, voice, etc.

If this is not a body, then the human soul must be able to “unfold” into the propensities of a living human being (somatomorphic soul). If this is the case, however, it is in effect the same as being embodied.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[levinas12]

The “Rich Man” of LK 16 had eyes, voice and tongue, and Lazarus presumably had limbs, since he could move and be held by Abraham (as well as dip his finger). This even though the RM had brothers who were still living life.

The “souls” in Rv6 evidently have a form that a “robe” can be draped over, as well as eyes, voice, etc.

The “rich man” and Lazarus are characters in a parable … they shouldn’t be taken as real historical figures.

The “souls” in Rv 6 … if this scene takes place before the resurrection of the body, I would have to invoke a “spiritual” as opposed to a “literal” interpretation. If the scene takes place after the resurrection of the body, then it may be literal.

If we were still somehow embodied immediately after our particular death, then the feast of the Assumption, which we just celebrated, would not be a big deal … but it is.

 

[Fink]

Good point. Added to that is that even “intellectual processing”, at least for human beings (we are not spirits), requires a head to operate. You can no more “think” without your head than you can move without your limbs.

As complete persons, we`re a combination of spirit and matter; and our thinking ability (intellect) is an attribute of the (human only) soul. The other attribute of the soul is the will.

The brain is like a modem, or maybe a “number cruncher?”, between the intellect and the (physical/material) body; but, in this life, its a very restrictive one because it prevents us from directly experiencing the Supernatural. It anchors/shackles us well and truly in the material realm. A defective brain makes it even worse! :eek: im speaking from experience!

Liberated from the body, the intellect will become aware, according to its ability, of the Reality of the Supernatural. If Purgatory is unnecessary, there will instantly be the Beatific Vision: raw spirit-to-Spirit contact/union with God, plus awareness of all of the angels and the other blesseds. Plus intense love: a union of indescribable knowledge and love. (Love is in the will.)

As stated by Sonny, the absence of the body means lack of “completeness” which will remain until the General Resurrection.
The passing of time in the spiritual realm is different from how it passes in the material realm…

In Purgatory, the soul knows that at least the suffering is temporary; and it wouldn`t want to be united with God until all stain is removed.

The main suffering of Hell is everlasting separation from God; and at the same time, hatred of God, and no desire to be with Him. Before the General Resurrection, there`ll also be the “expectation” of sensory suffering via the body.

Scriptural and saintly accounts of human eschatology always describe not a philosophical half-being, but a sensational experience. The “Rich Man” of LK 16 had eyes, voice and tongue, and Lazarus presumably had limbs, since he could move and be held by Abraham (as well as dip his finger). This even though the RM had brothers who were still living life.

'The Bosom of Abraham" is just another name for what the Church calls “The Limbo of The Fathers”. That was the state (not a place) of all of the souls of those who had died in God`s friendship. At His Ascension, Jesus “led” them into Heaven.

The “rich man” and Lazarus are characters in a parable … they shouldn’t be taken as real historical figures.

The “souls” in Rv 6 … if this scene takes place before the resurrection of the body, I would have to invoke a “spiritual” as opposed to a “literal” interpretation. If the scene takes place after the resurrection of the body, then it may be literal.

If we were still somehow embodied immediately after our particular death, then the feast of the Assumption, which we just celebrated, would not be a big deal … but it is.

Amen.