Is the SSPX Third Order a Valid Third Order?

[TrueLight]

I recently spoke to a woman who is part of the SSPX third order. She was speaking to me about the rules and why she joined.

I just gave her a small smile and a nod because I did not want to start questioning the validity of the Order.

I also spoke to someone who said that once the SSPX became regularized, she would join their third order.

Does anyone know if the SSPX Third Order is recognized by Rome?

Third Order

 

[corsair]

Truelight,

Going to try to answer this but will probably be “ambushed” by others.

Because SSPX has not been regularized as yet I think we can safely assume that those organizations that are affiliated with them are also not in full communion with Rome. It has been published all over the place that the Masses by SSPX are valid but illicit.

I have attended Masses with them on numerous ocassions and I am very sympathetic to the Society but I will attend most often at FSSP. (at least until the SSPX can reconcile).

I came back to the establishment church in 1988 when the the four Bishops were consecrated against Pope JP II wishes. I attended the SSPX for more than 10 years prior to that.

Those folks that attend the SSPX are no different than other trad catholic. For the most part they are extremely loyal to Catholic tradition. You will not find modernists in their ranks.

If the FSSP were not available I don’t think that I could last long within the OF church.
Just my opinion but, like others, “been there, done that”.

 

[TrueLight]

Truelight,

Going to try to answer this but will probably be “ambushed” by others.

Because SSPX has not been regularized as yet I think we can safely assume that those organizations that are affiliated with them are also not in full communion with Rome. It has been published all over the place that the Masses by SSPX are valid but illicit.

Thanks Corsair.

I’m just wondering if the SSPX do become regularized or given an Ordinariate, will these Third Orders be given valid status, or is it all speculation at this point?

 

[JReducation]

I recently spoke to a woman who is part of the SSPX third order. She was speaking to me about the rules and why she joined.

I just gave her a small smile and a nod because I did not want to start questioning the validity of the Order.

I also spoke to someone who said that once the SSPX became regularized, she would join their third order.

Does anyone know if the SSPX Third Order is recognized by Rome?

Third Order

The SSPX is a public association. That’s its canonical title, better said, It’s a clerical society of Apostolic Life, pulic association for short.

The association has not been supressed. The clerics in the association are suspended and have no canonical place in the Church, but that’s the clerics (deacons, priests and bishops). Other membes of the association: brothers, sisters and lay people are not in the same state.

The answer to the question depends on when this third order was founded and by whom. It it was founded by the bishops after their excommunication, they have no jurisdiction to erect such an institute. If they founded it before the excommunication, Bishop Lefebvre was in good standing with the Church and was the legal superior general with all of the rights and duties of any superior general.

There are also situations in which an association, such as a third order can be erected independently of the original institute as is the case with the Secular Franciscans. They have nothing to do with the Franciscan Friars or the Franciscan Nuns (Poor Clares). They were erected with their own rule, government, funds, mission and way of life that is different from that the the rest of the Franciscan family. They were founded by St. Francis, but erected by the Church.

It is possible for someone in from the SSPX to found a third order and for the Church to confer a canonical status on it, without granting the priests of the SSPX the right to celebrate sacraments for them. This would not go over too well, but it is legal. They would be to the SSPX priests what the Secular Franciscans are to the Franciscan Friars and Nuns, their brothers, but not part of them They co-exist as autonomous public associations.

The question is answered by looking at their constitution. They should have in their constitution a statement that says that they are a public association. If it’s not there, then they have not received authorization to exist or someone left it out. This authorization must come from the bishop of a diocese or from the Holy See.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Corki]

The answer to the question depends on when this third order was founded and by whom. It it was founded by the bishops after their excommunication, they have no jurisdiction to erect such an institute. If they founded it before the excommunication, Bishop Lefebvre was in good standing with the Church and was the legal superior general with all of the rights and duties of any superior general.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I did a little Googling and it seems the Third Order was founded by Bishop Lefebvre in 1980. Where does that put them on the timeline?

 

[TrueLight]

The SSPX is a public association. That’s its canonical title, better said, It’s a clerical society of Apostolic Life, pulic association for short.

The association has not been supressed. The clerics in the association are suspended and have no canonical place in the Church, but that’s the clerics (deacons, priests and bishops). Other membes of the association: brothers, sisters and lay people are not in the same state.

The answer to the question depends on when this third order was founded and by whom. It it was founded by the bishops after their excommunication, they have no jurisdiction to erect such an institute. If they founded it before the excommunication, Bishop Lefebvre was in good standing with the Church and was the legal superior general with all of the rights and duties of any superior general.

There are also situations in which an association, such as a third order can be erected independently of the original institute as is the case with the Secular Franciscans. They have nothing to do with the Franciscan Friars or the Franciscan Nuns (Poor Clares). They were erected with their own rule, government, funds, mission and way of life that is different from that the the rest of the Franciscan family. They were founded by St. Francis, but erected by the Church.

It is possible for someone in from the SSPX to found a third order and for the Church to confer a canonical status on it, without granting the priests of the SSPX the right to celebrate sacraments for them. This would not go over too well, but it is legal. They would be to the SSPX priests what the Secular Franciscans are to the Franciscan Friars and Nuns, their brothers, but not part of them They co-exist as autonomous public associations.

The question is answered by looking at their constitution. They should have in their constitution a statement that says that they are a public association. If it’s not there, then they have not received authorization to exist or someone left it out. This authorization must come from the bishop of a diocese or from the Holy See.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I was hoping you would weigh in because if anyone knows all about orders and rules, it is you!

I remember recently there was a posting about a nun that was supposedly allowed by Rome to transfer to an SSPX order. I don’t remember the details, but it makes me wonder if their third orders have any type of status.

Also, is it not only Orders that can have Third Orders?

 

[JReducation]

I was hoping you would weigh in because if anyone knows all about orders and rules, it is you!

I remember recently there was a posting about a nun that was supposedly allowed by Rome to transfer to an SSPX order. I don’t remember the details, but it makes me wonder if their third orders have any type of status.

Also, is it not only Orders that can have Third Orders?

A Third Order is a real order as are Dominicans, Carmelites, Franciscans, Benedictines, Norbertines, Trinitarians, Cistercians, Servites and Jesuits.

All other religious are members of congregations, not orders. There is a canonical difference not visible to the naked eye. But that’s another thread.

When the code of canon law was revised in 1983 the code has a section that speaks to these lay communities and it refers to them as public associations of the faithful. Then it goes on to mention that third orders are also bound by the laws that govern public associations of the faithful. From there, many societies such as the SSPX and congregations such as the Legionaires began to use thet term “Third Order” because it’s less of a mouthful than “Public Association of the Lay Faithful of the Society of St. Pius X.” By the time you tell someone the name of your community the person is snoring away.

I did a little Googling and it seems the Third Order was founded by Bishop Lefebvre in 1980. Where does that put them on the timeline?

The excommunication took place long after 1980. Archbishop Lefebvre had the canonical authority to found such an association.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[corsair]

Thank you Br. JR. That certainly clarifies things for me. I was being a little too cautious it seems.

I believe there is a Benedictine Monastary that is closely affiliated with the SSPX. I can’t remember exactly where they are located but it seems to me that they are in the SW USA.

Do you know anything about them?

 

[MarkThompson]

The excommunication took place long after 1980. Archbishop Lefebvre had the canonical authority to found such an association.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Why would that be? The SSPX was dissolved by the Bishop of Fribourg in 1975, and Abp. Lefebvre was completely suspended in 1976. By 1980, he was not an ordinary, had resigned as superior general of the Holy Ghost Fathers, was a suspended priest, and his SSPX had been suppressed as a pious union, giving it no canonical existence within the Catholic Church. So whence did he derive the authority to found or establish anything?

 

[corsair]

So let me better understand this, Mark; you are saying that a Bishop can suspend an Archbishop?

Would you care to explain this a little more for me?

 

[MarkThompson]

So let me better understand this, Mark; you are saying that a Bishop can suspend an Archbishop?

Would you care to explain this a little more for me?

No, no, the Vatican suspended Abp. Lefebvre. It was Bishop Pierre Mamie of Fribourg who, with Rome’s approval, withdrew the SSPX’s status as a pious union within his diocese. Since that was the only existence the SSPX ever had, it ceased to exist as a canonical entity at that time. Lefebvre’s priestly suspension was a separate issue.

 

[corsair]

I’m certainly glad somebody has this sorted out because there seems to be some confusion in Rome about this too. Perhaps Cardinal Hoyos needs this all explained to him along with most of Ecclesia Dei commission.

As for me I’ll just attend Mass as often as possible (EF particularily) and leave the squabbling to the “experts” in Rome and elsewhere.

 

[OraLabora]

Thank you Br. JR. That certainly clarifies things for me. I was being a little too cautious it seems.

I believe there is a Benedictine Monastary that is closely affiliated with the SSPX. I can’t remember exactly where they are located but it seems to me that they are in the SW USA.

Do you know anything about them?

You might be thinking of Clear Creek monastery in, I think, N. Mexico. It is of the Solesmes congregation. I don’t believe it currently has an association with the SSPX but it does use the EF Mass and traditional Benedictine Divine Office (which is the same as the current Benedictine Divine Office, schema A, but with the collects, etc. of pre-Vatican II times). This is not, BTW, anywhere near identical to the 1962 breviary; the Roman Office is very different from the Benedictine Office. The 1962 Roman breviary follows the 1910 reforms of Pius X.

Whether you’re thinking of another monastery I wouldn’t know. True Benedictines are 100% faithful to the Holy Father, so I doubt that an SSPX-affiliated monastery would be a big hit in the Benedictine Confederation even though the confederation is very loose since in the Benedictine tradition, Benedictine abbeys are very much self-governing.

 

[JReducation]

Why would that be? The SSPX was dissolved by the Bishop of Fribourg in 1975, and Abp. Lefebvre was completely suspended in 1976. By 1980, he was not an ordinary, had resigned as superior general of the Holy Ghost Fathers, was a suspended priest, and his SSPX had been suppressed as a pious union, giving it no canonical existence within the Catholic Church. So whence did he derive the authority to found or establish anything?

Maybe my dates are off. I thought that he was the Superior General of the SSPX in 1980. If he was not the legitimate superior of the SSPX then he was not an Ordinary.

However, there is still the possibility that the SSPX Third Order could be approved independently of the priestly fraternity, as is the case with the Secular Franciscans. They have nothing to do with us. They are the same family, but autonomous.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[giuseppeTO]

You might be thinking of Clear Creek monastery in, I think, N. Mexico. It is of the Solesmes congregation. I don’t believe it currently has an association with the SSPX but it does use the EF Mass and traditional Benedictine Divine Office (which is the same as the current Benedictine Divine Office, schema A, but with the collects, etc. of pre-Vatican II times). This is not, BTW, anywhere near identical to the 1962 breviary; the Roman Office is very different from the Benedictine Office. The 1962 Roman breviary follows the 1910 reforms of Pius X.

Whether you’re thinking of another monastery I wouldn’t know. True Benedictines are 100% faithful to the Holy Father, so I doubt that an SSPX-affiliated monastery would be a big hit in the Benedictine Confederation even though the confederation is very loose since in the Benedictine tradition, Benedictine abbeys are very much self-governing.

No … she is referring to Our Lady of Guadalupe Monastery in Silver City, NM

 

[giuseppeTO]

In the SSPX Third Order, we do take our vows before the exposed Blessed Sacrament and renew them each year on Dec 8th. We are called to a comprehensive prayer life including daily Mass, rosary, and the Breviary. We also abstain from TV and movie-going and are called to pure and chaste leisure entertainment. We attend a week long Ignatian Retreat every two years. We also adhere to regular penance and fasting and are challenged to show heroic charity. We benefit from the prayers, Masses, and sacrifices of Society first and second order members.

 

[TrueLight]

In the SSPX Third Order, we do take our vows before the exposed Blessed Sacrament and renew them each year on Dec 8th. We are called to a comprehensive prayer life including daily Mass, rosary, and the Breviary. We also abstain from TV and movie-going and are called to pure and chaste leisure entertainment. We attend a week long Ignatian Retreat every two years. We also adhere to regular penance and fasting and are challenged to show heroic charity. We benefit from the prayers, Masses, and sacrifices of Society first and second order members.

I am so happy that you stopped by this thread!

Would you mind sharing the types of penances you adhere to if it is not too personal?

 

[JReducation]

In the SSPX Third Order, we do take our vows before the exposed Blessed Sacrament and renew them each year on Dec 8th. We are called to a comprehensive prayer life including daily Mass, rosary, and the Breviary. We also abstain from TV and movie-going and are called to pure and chaste leisure entertainment. We attend a week long Ignatian Retreat every two years. We also adhere to regular penance and fasting and are challenged to show heroic charity. We benefit from the prayers, Masses, and sacrifices of Society first and second order members.

You’re just the person to answer the canonical question. Is it a canonically erected public association and if so, was it erected by a diocesan bishop or by the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life?

This is the question on the table. I don’t know the answer.

Thanks.

Br. JR, OSF

 

[roadsend]

I’m certainly glad somebody has this sorted out because there seems to be some confusion in Rome about this too. Perhaps Cardinal Hoyos needs this all explained to him along with most of Ecclesia Dei commission.

As for me I’ll just attend Mass as often as possible (EF particularily) and leave the squabbling to the “experts” in Rome and elsewhere.

+1

 

[JReducation]

There are two, maybe more, canonical questions not to be confused. I would suggest that those who have never been religious superiors take the time to find out the canons before commenting, because you may do more harm than good. And no, reading them from the Code of Canon Law is not helpful enough, because for each of those codes that governs institutes of consecrated life, societies of apsotolic life, secular orders, and secular institutes, the Sacred Congregation has a plethora of rules. The canons are just the skeleton. The Sacred Congregation holds the final word on how the canons are to be applied.

All of us who have ever been superior and those who are superiors always apply to the Sacred Congregation to answer these questions. Ecclesia Dei is not the right commission to answer this question. Ecclesia Dei has no authority over institutes. It’s authority is to oversee the integration and compliance of the Ecclesia Dei institutes, but not compliance with matters of erection. That is not within the competency of Ecclesia Dei.

The Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Socities of Apostolic Life governs the erection of institutes, societies and associations. Ecclesia Dei does two things. It protects the Traditionalist groups and it helps bishops with the issues that govern the implementation of UE and SP.

The question on the table is whether or not the Third Order of the SSPX is canonically erected? The answer is, that it can be canonically erected by either a diocesan bishop within his diocese and under his oversight or as an association of Pontifical Right under the authority of the Sacred Congregation.

The second canonical question is whether it is truly an order or a public association of the faithful? The most likely answer is that it is not an order since the last religious order founded in the Latin Church was the Jesuit Order. No other religious or secular orders were founded after the Jesuits. A good example of this is the OCDS. The Discalced Carmelite Order Secular exists as a branch of the Discalced Carmelite Order, because when it was founded, there was a ban on new orders. They remain part of the Discalced Carmelite Friars and Nuns, with the same rule, but their own constitution. Whereas the SFO (Secular Franciscan Order) is not the same as the Franciscan Friars (OFM, OFM Cap, OFM Conv, OSF, TOR, MFVA, CFR, etc). At the time they were founded, Pope Gregory IX, who had been a very close friend of St. Francis, waved the prohibition on new orders to allow for this one. The same would happen with the Jesuits. The prohibition was waved, out of the respect that the Holy See had for Ignatius. The prohibition has never been waved again. Every other group is either a prublic or private association of the faithful. Some of them are religious congregations and some are secular associations, often called third orders, because it’s shorter than those long names.

The third canonical question is the status of the Priestly Society of St. Pius X. This is a separate question from that of the third order of the SSPX, because the Sacred Congregation can treat all of the SSPX as one legal person or as several legal persons. It it treats all of them as one legal person, then the answer would be “negative.” The SSPX third order is not canonical. If the Sacred Congregation treats them as separate legal persons, it can rule that the third order is canonical and that the priestly fraternity is not.

This has nothing to do with the status of the priests and bishops of the SSPX. They can be a canonical society of apostolic life and still have no canonical place in the Church. The canonical place of which the Holy Father spoke has to do with the exercise of priestly ministry. It does not extend to other aspects of the spiritual and Christian life. For example, the SSPX sisters and brothers have a canonical place in the Church. The do not need the permission of the Vatican to move around. Any bishop can welcome them and hand over a ministry to them, as long as they govern themselves and not allow the SSPX priests and bishops to govern them. They have never been penalized. The canonical penalties have nothing to do with their way of life. It’s about the ordinations and doctrinal differences. It’s not about the consecrated life.

This leads to the last canonical question. When the members of the SSPX third order make profession, who receives the profession? Canonically, a profession must be received by the canonical superior of the third order and by a canonical representative of the Church. This can be the same person. For example, every minister (superior) of a Secular Franciscan (SFO) fraternity is a canonical representative of the Church, because they are an Order of Pontifical Right. He receives the profession in the name of the order and the name of the Church.

The question is whether or nor the superior of the SSPX third order has the canonical authority to represent the Church.

None of this is going to be found in canon law. It’s all found in the Modus Procedendi of the Sacred Congregation Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF