Is The Theory of Evolution mandatory for the modern worldview

  • Thread starter Thread starter nmercier1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Virtual certainty is not the same as “virtual infinity” (whatever that is)
Virtually certain is …virtually certain i.e. something may be different but odds are very very very much that it ain’t
All science is done with stated degrees of certainty and confidence intervals.
HH is using the term correctly

A scientists or engineer may in casual conversation say the answer is X but it is understood that the formal answer is X±Y with some confidence interval. It is not “basically useless” it is essential to the way science and engineering work.

How certain is virtually certain?
Well it is not uncommon for scientists to use 90%, 95%, 99%, 99.9 %, 99.99% etc confidence intervals.
Depending on the data and the instruments and the statistical tests used.
Some things, like a piece of bone with a certain (no pun intended) feature have a 100% certainty.

If I told you had a 99.9% chance of wining the lottery would you consider that virtually certain?
If I were playing russian roulette and had a 99.9% chance of survival, I’d put the gun away.

Are you saying that the Pope thinks that there is a 99.9% chance that common descent is Truth? How do you know that this is the number he has in mind?

It seems to me that if the Pope really wanted to endorse common descent, he would have said “certain”, not “virtually certain.”

Some of the posters here seem to equate “virtually certain” with “certain.” There IS a huge difference. For purposes of building a bridge the confidence interval can be factored in, and usually makes no difference. When we’re talking about the origin of man, it seems to me that we need to be certain, not virtually certain before declaring victory.

BTW - I believe that common descent and the standard theory of evolution is a “good bet.” But as I’ve mentioned many times before, I think you need an “almost infinite” 🙂 amount of time for it to happen without the direct intervention of the hand of God. And 4.5 billion (or 13 billion) years is way short of infinite. So I leave the door open at this point to any theory in which God plays a part. The reason I’m adding this BTW is that a particular someone tends to respond to my posts as though I’m endorsing YEC, which I’m not.
 
If I were playing russian roulette and had a 99.9% chance of survival, I’d put the gun away.
good choice
Are you saying that the Pope thinks that there is a 99.9% chance that common descent is Truth? How do you know that this is the number he has in mind?
I don’t know what number he has in mind. He probably hasn’t come up with a number himself but asked his science advisors. There are life science researchers at the PAS.

But whether it is 90% or 99.9999999% that is a high degree of certainty
It seems to me that if the Pope really wanted to endorse common descent, he would have said “certain”, not “virtually certain.”
The Church has always said that we are all brothers and sisters who share common decent.

From a scientific point of view “virtually certain” is more correct.
Some of the posters here seem to equate “virtually certain” with “certain.” There IS a huge difference.
Huge?
Not necessarily. It depends upon your confidence intervals.

I don’t know if you have studied calculus but the notion of “limits” does produce real results, as does the central limit theorem of statistics.
For purposes of building a bridge the confidence interval can be factored in, and usually makes no difference. When we’re talking about the origin of man, it seems to me that we need to be certain, not virtually certain before declaring victory.
Why the double standard? Either we have confidence in an answer or we do not.
BTW - I believe that common descent and the standard theory of evolution is a “good bet.” But as I’ve mentioned many times before, I think you need an “almost infinite” 🙂 amount of time for it to happen without the direct intervention of the hand of God.
perhaps but what would your test for that be?
And 4.5 billion (or 13 billion) years is way short of infinite.
Large Numbers and Deep Time 😉
So I leave the door open at this point to any theory in which God plays a part.
No purely materialistic theory of any sort will include God in the answer. That would be beyond its scope. But there is nothing preventing you from doing so.
I do not find evolution and creation mutually exclusive.

And IIRC HH said something to the fact to suppose there is a basic conflict between science and religion is an absurdity.
The reason I’m adding this BTW is that a particular someone tends to respond to my posts as though I’m endorsing YEC, which I’m not.
understood
 
This looks like a good explanation of natural selection. However, it assumes that the genetically resistant bacteria are already there. Not that they evolved in response to some stimulus.
No, ricmat, it assumes that a genetic predisposition to the resistance was already present in the ancestors of the bacteria that survive.
 
No, ricmat, it assumes that a genetic predisposition to the resistance was already present in the ancestors of the bacteria that survive.
I agree — that’s a possible answer also. Although I’m not familiar enough with the details of the “before genes” and the “after genes” to know if this is actually what happened. Or if the ones that survived actually WERE there beforehand.

Also, “genetic predisposition” to me, at least, is another word for “designed from the start” 🙂
 
The Church has always said that we are all brothers and sisters who share common decent.
…uh…common descent from Adam and Eve, who were already human.

The virtually certain phrase was being used by others in conjunction with the common descent part of evolution.
Why the double standard? Either we have confidence in an answer or we do not.
If I had a bicycle that had a 1% chance of falling to pieces after riding it for 1 hour, I might still decide to ride the bicycle.

If I were told that an airplane that I was about to board had a 1% chance of falling to pieces after riding in it for 1 hour, I’d stay on the ground.
I do not find evolution and creation mutually exclusive.
Nor do I.
And IIRC HH said something to the fact to suppose there is a basic conflict between science and religion is an absurdity.
You lost me with “IIRC HH” [not sure what the abbreviations mean]. I don’t believe that there is a basic conflict between science and religion. Both science and religion can (and are) used as tools by those who disbelieve in God. And I do think there is a tendency for many scientists to puff up their chests with pride regarding “how much they know”. This isn’t good for their own salvation, or those whom they have convinced that science knows everything.

As I said in a previous post, in the End, I suspect that we will discover that we all knew very little. And the most exalted of those among us actually knew the least.
 
…uh…common descent from Adam and Eve, who were already human.
Hmmm… let’s see… he wrote:

"Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism."

Seems clear to me.
The virtually certain phrase was being used by others in conjunction with the common descent part of evolution.
It was, to be precise, the report he presented to the Pope, summarizing the findings of the commission he chaired.
 
No. If God were, for example, faking it and inserting them in to look random, evolution would work the same way.
.
my intent wasn’t to imply that God was faking it, as perhaps some would contend he created fossils just to fake out the non-believers. (he doesn’t need to fake them out non-believers were choosing against him long before Darwin.)but that there is (may be)only an appearance of randomness because of the limits of our knowledge and ability to observe.

Is their a possibilty of an inherent genetic predisposition for the necessary mutations that at times become useful, and is not as arbitrary as we think? From one point of view I have no problem in seeing order arising out(randomness)chaos, for that is consitent with the very beginning of Genesis. And perhaps God continuse to reveal this truth through what appears to be this seemingly random process. I hope this is making some sense.
I guess indirectly my point is that a scientist should always remain open to other possibilities even if they seem counter intuitive to what they already believe or observe. as perhaps one sees in the progression from Newton to einstein and thru quantum mechanics. It seems that our understanding of physics has evolved over time sometimes seeming to contradict what is being observed. And this is why I flinch at calling evolution fact as opposed to theory
 
OK, let’s backtrack a bit.

Here’s what started this topic:
Code:
Quote:
                                                                  Originally Posted by **steveandersen**                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3387593#post3387593)                 
             *The Church has always said that we are all brothers and sisters who share common decent.*
To which I replied:
…uh…common descent from Adam and Eve, who were already human.
To which Barbarian replied:
Hmmm… let’s see… he wrote:

"Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism."

Seems clear to me.
Perhaps you missed the original quote. See above.

The Church HAS ALWAYS taught that we are all brothers and sisters who share common decent from Adam and Eve. This is right out of the catechism. And the teaching dovetails with the whole original sin thing.

Obviously, the Church has NOT ALWAYS taught that we share common descent from more primitive life forms.

We’ve already discussed whether or not the Church teaches that now, or not (and I don’t want to open that can of worms again). I just want to clarify the above.
 
Science is guided by the scientific method…It isn’t at all emotional. It’s objective…Science doesn’t work that way. Believe what you like, science isn’t about belief, it’s about evidence.
If that were true—if science was really “unemotional and objective”, then you wouldn’t have had Ales Hrdlicka of the Smithsonian Institution barging into Louis Leakey’s office and accusing Leakey of “teaching heresy” after Leakey had examined the eoliths from the Calico site in California and pronounced that man had been in the New World for at least 15,000 years, nor would you have had one of Leakey’s biographers stating that “for many colleagues who felt admiration [for Leakey], the Calico years were an embarassment and a sadness”.

If science was really “all about evidence”, you wouldn’t have had scientists working so hard to cover up evidence produced from the Sheguiandah site in Canada, and doing their best to discredit Thomas Lee, the anthropoligist who excavated the site. Lee dated the tools he found at about 30,000 years old; the geologists working with him dated them at about 150,000 years old. For his discovery, Lee was hounded from his Civil Service position, he was unable to publish or to find employment; Dr. Jacques Rosseau—the Director of National Museum of Canada—who defended Lee, was also fired and driven into exile; Lee’s artifacts were seized and packed into crates in the National Museum, never to be seen again; and his notes and submitted papers mysteriously were “misfiled and lost”.

All of this for uncovering evidence that suggested that man was in North America prior to the “accepted” date of 12,000 years ago. As Lee observed, “Sheguiandah would have forced embarassing admissions that the Brahmins didn’t know everything. It would have forced the re-writing of almost every book in the business. It had to be killed. It was killed.”

If science was really “all about evidence”, you wouldn’t have precisely the same thing happening at the Hueyatlaco site in Mexico, where artifacts were dated at 250,000 years ago. The “unemotional and objective” scientists refused to publish the date, even after numerous tests had been made. Virginia Steen-McIntyre, the USGS geologist on the site, met the same fate as Thomas Lee: she was hounded from her position, lost her job, was publicly labelled by the “unemotional and objective” scientists as “incompetent”, “a news monger”, “an opportunist”, “dishonest”, and “a fool”. She has not worked professionally in her field since, again finding it impossible to get any of her papers published.

As she stated concerning the matter, “The archaeologist in charge of the Hueyatlaco dig (where they had found well made stone tools) rejected our geologic dates of a quarter-million years because, according to her belief, modern man, the maker of those tools, had not yet evolved 250,000 years ago. He evolved only 100,000 years ago and that was in the Old World, not the New. A classic case of arguing from theory to data, then tossing out the data that don’t fit. The problem as I see it is much bigger than Hueyatlaco. It concerns the manipulation of scientific thought through the suppression of `Enigmatic Data’, data that challenges the prevailing mode of thinking…not being an anthropologist, I didn’t realise the full significance of our dates back in 1973, nor how deeply woven into our thought the current theory of human evolution had become. Our work at Hueyatlaco has been rejected by most archaeologists because it contradicts that theory, period.”

If science were “all about evidence, not belief”, then you wouldn’t have ancient human skeletal remains found in New Jersey, Illinois, California, Missouri, Britain, France, Brazil, Italy, and Argentina rejected because they “didn’t fit” with the accepted theory of evolution, while finds such as Java Man and “Lucy” are accepted wholesale, even when they don’t offer as much paleontological evidence as the rejected finds.

Science is “all about the scientific method”? “Isn’t at all emotional”? “Is objective?” Science “isn’t about belief, it’s about evidence”?

Absolute balderdash.
And might I remind you that the Catholic Church has warned against science in the past and they were proven to be in error and essentially forced to change dogma.
You’re using the wrong term, Namesake. Dogma is a defined teaching, promulgated by either an ecumenical council or a reigning Pontiff; but in either case, the teaching is both infallible and binding upon all Catholics.

Doctrine can change. Discipline can change. Devotion can change. Dogma cannot. So whatever it was that the Church may have had to revise views on, dogma was not one of them.

Just thought I’d point that out before you make the same error twice. 😉
 
You are clearly from the “religion is over here and science is over there” school of thought.

You also seem to be operating under the dual view system of viewing the Church. Example, “The Church does not or cannot do science.” Well, there’s the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. And there is the much discussed Gallileo affair.

This is about a power struggle between secular forces and, in this case, the Catholic Church.

It may interest you to know that the Catholic Church does not accept certain theories of evolution. It is not enough that some declare some things “facts.” Pope Benedict has stated, after the much ballyhooed statement made by Pope John Paul II about evolution, “But it is also true that the theory of evolution is not a complete, scientifically proven theory.”

As Pope, he has the authority to make such a statement. It is also nonsensical to compare gravity, electricity or even medicine to the theory of evolution. As you may know, evolution is part of the atheist tool kit. It is a weapon. The only issue that truly matters is: IS Jesus Christ the Son of God who lived, died and was buried so that sins would be forgiven?"

That is the only issue that matters. Even in the Bible, one of the apostles recommends using a medicinal wine. However, today, a body exists in the Church for The Causes of Saints. Two miracles are required before someone can be named a saint. These things are generally ignored by the secular world.

In the scientific community, there is a relationship between the object observed and the observer. And, once again, the issue is not at what temperature does water freeze? It is about human identity and human dignity, and our relationship with our Creator.

Even in the scientific community, there are a few, and one only needs a few, knowledge filters. They decide that certain ideas are acceptable and others are not. Pope John Paul II spoke of design in nature, but people have been trained. Yes, trained. To respond to any such idea first with emotion and then angry words of dismissal. Cardinal Schoenborn has taken note of this.

I find it perfectly reasonable to believe that all life on this planet was created to exist in an interdependent way, with very little chance and very little natural selection.

I suggest you consider that everything you read is a form of advertising. Not just for physical products but also of ideas. It is a way to engineer consent among the common people. This society we live in no longer has people walking about in robes and wearing crowns but the underlying structure is quite similar to its medieval counterpart.

There are individuals on the internet who are paid by special interests to promote products and ideas on the internet. They are called “astroturf” after the fake grass. They may look like real 'grassroots" people but they are, in fact, paid lobbyists to the masses like you and I.

The Bible warns against false teachers and deception. Science, yes, science, can be manipulated. It is done by humans for use by humans. Evolution, as evidenced by my many visits to atheist/secular humanist/bright/free thinker web sites, is being regarded as the perfect tool to sweep religion out of the minds and lives of the average person. This is a fact you can check for yourself.

It would be appropriate to note here that this was the Communist goal in the 1920s. That the State would produce propaganda against religion and all superstitious beliefs among the people. They had some formidable barriers in that grandparents might teach religion to their grandkids or that some would secretly spread religious ideas. The goal was the same as it is today: A “new man” will emerge. Free of the “opiate of the people,” he would, today, be mired in a life filled with real opiates and other illegal drugs, dysfunctional relationships and only have value in his utilitarian uses: soldier and worker for the State.

Study some history, it tends to repeat itself.

God bless,
Ed
Good for you Ed, that is great. now if only Barbarian & a few other “know it alls” would take heed. You are speaking with true WISDOM and not just “talking to hear your head rattle.”
 
I disagree with the simple propaganda technique you use called repetition. All you are interested in is completing your assignment: universal acceptance of an atheistic form of evolutionary theory. For you, scientists are of the greatest importance, not the Church. Ask yourself, should science be in charge of the Catholic Church?God bless,Ed
Ed, scientists should be in charge of science, not the Church. Churchmen and Churchwomen should be in charge of the Church, not scientists.
 
This looks like a good explanation of natural selection. However, it assumes that the genetically resistant bacteria are already there. Not that they evolved in response to some stimulus.
No assumption required. The Luria-Delbrück experiment shows exactly that the resistance is present in the population before the antibiotic is applied.

Before the antibiotic arrives mechanisms like neutral drift are in play, after the antibiotic is applied then natural selection gets to work.

Scientist do not like making assumptions when they do not have to. This is another case in point. A little more research would save you making such mistakes, the Luria-Delbrück experiment is a famous one, and pretty well known.

rossum
 
And what should churchmen and churchwomen do? Only attend their anachronistic ceremonies? Attend to the lighting of the candles and the snuffing out of the same? Stay in their little buildings while the “modern” world does whatever it wants just outside their doors?

The Pontifical Academy of Sciences has been around for 400 years. Catholics are active in the field of bioethics. Numerous encyclicals have been published on a wide range of scientific topics. The Catholic Church has always been concerned about the whole man. The spiritual and eternal and the temporal.

Pick up any Catholic newspaper or magazine and you will see the same issues as discussed in the secular press from a fully informed Catholic perspective. And that is what Catholics need.

Catholics need information that is not colored by nihilism or utilitarianism or greed. “Yeah, we can make a bundle doin’ that, so let’s do it.” We live in a world of right and wrong. And God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

The current media, where I work in a small niche, is nihilistic, filled with political biases, immoral (at least to the degree they can get away with it), amoral, jaded and, more recently, vulgar and cruel. Those who accept those things in their own lives see nothing wrong with them of course, but they are far from attributes worth emulating, whether one is secular or religious.

God bless,
Ed
 
And what should churchmen and churchwomen do? Only attend their anachronistic ceremonies? Attend to the lighting of the candles and the snuffing out of the same? Stay in their little buildings while the “modern” world does whatever it wants just outside their doors?
God bless,
Ed
Let science be science, and Church be Church.
 
As she stated concerning the matter, "The archaeologist in charge of the Hueyatlaco dig (where they had found well made stone tools) rejected our geologic dates of a quarter-million years because, according to her belief, modern man, the maker of those tools, had not yet evolved 250,000 years ago. He evolved only 100,000 years ago and that was in the Old World, not the New. A classic case of arguing from theory to data, then tossing out the data that don’t fit. The problem as I see it is much bigger than Hueyatlaco. It concerns the manipulation of scientific thought through the suppression of `Enigmatic Data’, data that challenges the prevailing mode of thinking…not being an anthropologist, I didn’t realise the full significance of our dates back in 1973, nor how deeply woven into our thought the current theory of human evolution had become. Our work at Hueyatlaco has been rejected by most archaeologists because it contradicts that theory, period."

Back to the Hare Krishna stuff? 😦

In fact, the strata were extremely confused in this location, including tilted strata, with ancient volcanic deposits, and the area had at one time been underwater, further confusing things.

It was not a great place to do a radioisotope sampling.
 
It would be appropriate to note here that this was the Communist goal in the 1920s. That the State would produce propaganda against religion and all superstitious beliefs among the people. They had some formidable barriers in that grandparents might teach religion to their grandkids or that some would secretly spread religious ideas. The goal was the same as it is today: A “new man” will emerge. Free of the “opiate of the people,” he would, today, be mired in a life filled with real opiates and other illegal drugs, dysfunctional relationships and only have value in his utilitarian uses: soldier and worker for the State.
Interestingly, Stalin and his fellows agreed with you; Darwin became officially outlawed. And Soviet biology, which was one of the best in the world, declined drastically. Russia is still catching up with the rest of the world.
Study some history, it tends to repeat itself.
Not yet. Creationists don’t have the power Stalin had.
 
my intent wasn’t to imply that God was faking it, as perhaps some would contend he created fossils just to fake out the non-believers. (he doesn’t need to fake them out non-believers were choosing against him long before Darwin.)but that there is (may be)only an appearance of randomness because of the limits of our knowledge and ability to observe.
It really wouldn’t matter how they were non-random. Since they are statistically indistinguishable from random mutations, the mechanism by which they were made to appear so is not really important.
Is their a possibilty of an inherent genetic predisposition for the necessary mutations that at times become useful, and is not as arbitrary as we think?
It sure would be a useful mutation, if some organism could evolve such a function, but we don’t really have any solid evidence for it.
From one point of view I have no problem in seeing order arising out(randomness)chaos, for that is consitent with the very beginning of Genesis. And perhaps God continuse to reveal this truth through what appears to be this seemingly random process. I hope this is making some sense.
Yes, it appears that nature is often producing order from non-order. And yet it happens from a few simple rules.
And this is why I flinch at calling evolution fact as opposed to theory
You shouldn’t. “Theory” is the highest level of certainty in science.
 
And what should churchmen and churchwomen do? Only attend their anachronistic ceremonies? Attend to the lighting of the candles and the snuffing out of the same? Stay in their little buildings while the “modern” world does whatever it wants just outside their doors?God bless,
Ed
Ed, I have numerous friends and collegues who are priests and nuns, and at the same time they are scientists. The attend what you derisively refer to as “anachronisitc ceremonies,” lightihg candles and praying. They also work in their physics and biology laboratories. They understand the difference between religion and science. I wish that were possible for you as well.
 
No assumption required. The Luria-Delbrück experiment shows exactly that the resistance is present in the population before the antibiotic is applied.

Before the antibiotic arrives mechanisms like neutral drift are in play, after the antibiotic is applied then natural selection gets to work.

Scientist do not like making assumptions when they do not have to. This is another case in point. A little more research would save you making such mistakes, the Luria-Delbrück experiment is a famous one, and pretty well known.

rossum
???

You sort of lost me here. I think we’re both saying that the description offered by drpmjhess does not support evolution in general, since nothing evolved in response to the antibiotic. And that his post offers a good explanation rather, of natural selection in action.

I was not being critical of the original experiment (where I assume 🙂 that the scientists didn’t make any assumptions). I was only questioning the interpretation offered by drpmjhess.

Words are such poor vehicles to transmit ideas, especially without body language cues, etc. So perhaps you were getting at something else…?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top