Is The Theory of Evolution mandatory for the modern worldview

[Michael_Francis]

If I find any more personal remarks on this thread I will close it.

It does not matter that you cannot agree.

It DOES matter that it seems that you cannot disagree without getting involved in personal sniping, and that is uncharitable on all sides.

Deal with the facts, the concise, authoritative, and documented teachings of the Church.

If you cannot do that then cease posting on this thread.

If you cannot read someone else’s posts and remain charitable in your responses then I strongly suggest the use of your ignore lists.

Thank you.
MF

P.S. Remain on topic. Off topic posts have been deleted.

 

[Alethios]

More from St Pius X in Pascendi

1. “Therefore the religious sentiment, which through the agency of vital immanence emerges from the lurking places of the subconsciousness, is the germ of all religion, and the explanation of everything that has been or ever will be in any religion. The sentiment, which was at first only rudimentary and almost formless, gradually matured, under the influence of that mysterious principle from which it originated, with the progress of human life, of which, as has been said, it is a form. This, then, is the origin of all religion, even supernatural religion; it is only a development of this religious sentiment. Nor is the Catholic religion an exception; it is quite on a level with the rest; for it was engendered, by the process of vital immanence, in the consciousness of Christ, who was a man of the choicest nature, whose like has never been, nor will be.”

Hard to believe, that Pius X teaches that all religion - including the Catholic religion - is nothing more than a religious feeling - an affectation of the emotions. But there it is - right from the Vatican site, so it must be true. It’s was just as surprising to us that PB16 is ‘virtually certain’ that all living organisms have descended from the first organism billions of years ago, as disclosed here recently.

What great apologetics here at the CAF, where previously unknown truths are unveiled from papal statements!

AMDG

 

[Alethios]

More from Pascendi…

1. “That We make no delay in this matter is rendered necessary especially by the fact that the partisans of error are to be sought not only among the Church’s open enemies; they lie hid, a thing to be deeply deplored and feared, in her very bosom and heart, and are the more mischievous, the less conspicuously they appear. We allude, Venerable Brethren, to many who belong to the Catholic laity, nay, and this is far more lamentable, to the ranks of the priesthood itself, who, feigning a love for the Church, lacking the firm protection of philosophy and theology, nay more, thoroughly imbued with the poisonous doctrines taught by the enemies of the Church, and lost to all sense of modesty, vaunt themselves as reformers of the Church; and, forming more boldly into line of attack, assail all that is most sacred in the work of Christ, not sparing even the person of the Divine Redeemer, whom, with sacrilegious daring, they reduce to a simple, mere man.”

AMDG

 

[The_Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
since radioactive elements (which are everywhere in the earth’s crust) will be constantly converting some nitrogen 14 (which is also ubiquitous) to carbon 14

Phillipp suggests:
(One meaning of ubiquitous is omnipresent-like God).

In science, it means “almost always present.”

Barbarian observes:
Carbon-14 is formed when Nitrogen-14 (which is found almost everywhere, including coal beds and the blue earth of diamond deposits) is struck by ionizing radiation. So it can form anywhere you have nitrogen plus any radioactive materials that emit neutrons. The reaction involves a neutron striking an atom of nitrogen-14, which produces one atom of carbon-14, plus a proton.

Carbon-14, which is unstable, will then slowly degrade back to nitrogen-14, by beta decay. About half of it will decay in a little over five thousand years.

As you probably know, coal is from living tissue, which is rich in nitrogen. And diamonds commonly have nitrogen inclusions in their crystal lattices.
adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1987GeCoA…51.1227D

So the question is, “do we have radiation sources in these deposits?” Turns out, we do:
tinyurl.com/yo46g4

pubs.usgs.gov/fs/1997/fs163-9…eCoA…51.1227D

Well, this is just BS (baloney sandwiches)

Well, let’s take a look at your claims…

Diamonds only contain trace impurities of anything, much less nitrogen. Most diamonds have virtually no N14 . About 1 part per thousand, at most – from the first reference.

There are two problems for you in that statement. First off, it’s simply wrong:

**The most common impurity in diamond is nitrogen, which can comprise up to 1% of a diamond by mass. **
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystallographic_defects_in_diamond

Second, even if you were right, it wouldn’t help you any. Even in the upper atmosphere, C-14 is less than one percent of the total carbon. And if you got a reading of 50,000 years, the C-14 left would be only about 0.23% of that. So you’re talking about 0.0023 percent C-14, less than even your erroneous estimate of nitrogen in diamonds. BTW, color has nothing to do with it. Although nitrogen can cause color, it doesn’t mean anything as far as C-14 is concerned.

Another fantasy is the presence of neutrons . THERE ARE NO NATURAL DECAY SERIES THAT PRODUCE NEUTRONS!

It’s called “photoneutron production”, and it can happen to atoms like hydrogen and beryllium, both needing less then 2 Mev to emit a neutron. And there are sources in various radiodecay cascades in kimberlite capable of producing 2 Mev.

This is how C-14 is produced in the atmosphere, by gamma radiation producing neutrons by photoneutron production, which in turn, strikes N-14, producing C-14.

Even if there were neutron sources, they would have to be in contact with the diamond, to keep from being absorbed externally, before reaching the diamond.

Yep. Hydrogen, for example. Also ubiquitous in various minerals, and even found as inclusions in diamond.

Even if the non-existent neutrons penetrated the diamond, the odds of them hitting a C12 nucleus would be thousands of times larger than hitting a N14 nucleus.

You’re off by an order of magnitude. Maybe it’s time to go look for yourself.

And the old “dinosaur/dragon” pictures are nor more evidence of recent dinosaurs than old pictures of centaurs are evidence that there were once half-horse people.

I

 

[The_Barbarian]

Ricmat, our conversation seems to have attracted some rather unpleasant commentary from others, which has irritated (justly so) the moderators.

To cooperate with them, and to extend a conciliatory gesture, I will again state that I found nothing in your quote from the Catechism to which I could not completely agree. And I’ll put aside my questions to you about the other parts of it.

 

[elt1956]

Neither sacred Scripture not universal ecclesiastical tradition tells us to believe it didn’t cover the whole earth. God said it did so guess who I believe. Would be kinda silly to take in a pair of every animal if there were plenty more out there to keep the animal population going.

Again, a matter of interpretation. Before our vast systems of communication were invented, before the wheel, perhaps, an individual’s “WORLD” was much smaller than what we know today and since the Bible was written by individuals with an imprerfect understanding and interpretation of God and nature, couldn’t the floods have occurred in “Local Worlds”? There is evidence of massive floods during ancient times on a local basis, ie individual countries that were flooded. I believe this is a possibility of what happened in Noah’s Sumer. Also, we all know scientifically that all species of animals aren’t indiginous to all parts of the world, so Noah saved two of each of the animals that were known in his “World”. I don’t know how much of what is written by anyone can be taken literally. Where does Faith end and blind ignorance begin?

 

[elt1956]

You apparently have your own version of God. He does not appear to be the God of the Bible. Science is a tool used by men. It is not the Word of God.

Your posts never put God first. For you, it is always science first.

God bless,
Ed

This topic will never cease to amaze me. How can one resolve an argument that involves two different sides of a coin? Both sides support the other, but they also divide.

By the way Ed, I think the idea here is that God is Science. We can see the physical evidence of God’s actions, ie evolution, but we will never understand the mystery behind then, nor will Science ever have ALL the answers. I much prefer a seeking mind and faith to a rigid one that allows no room for thought, resulting in the humility that recognizes we do depend on God for the answers, not a book written by who knows who, where and when and under what cricumstances.

 

[ricmat]

Ricmat, our conversation seems to have attracted some rather unpleasant commentary from others, which has irritated (justly so) the moderators.

To cooperate with them, and to extend a conciliatory gesture, I will again state that I found nothing in your quote from the Catechism to which I could not completely agree. And I’ll put aside my questions to you about the other parts of it.

Since we’re both Catholics, it’s good that we can both agree with the Catechism . Although it doesn’t go into much detail on many subjects (such as evolution), it is an invaluable resource in setting (Church approved) boundaries, so when we stumble across new remarks, writings, theories, etc. we can determine whether they likely conform to Church teaching or not.

As an aside, I (usually) find your posts very difficult to decipher, mainly because you usually don’t include the full text (or major text portion) of the post you are responding to. If you were to do that in the future, it might help avoid the “I agreed to it” / “No you didn’t” thing we had going.

 

[edwest2]

This topic will never cease to amaze me. How can one resolve an argument that involves two different sides of a coin? Both sides support the other, but they also divide.

By the way Ed, I think the idea here is that God is Science. We can see the physical evidence of God’s actions, ie evolution, but we will never understand the mystery behind then, nor will Science ever have ALL the answers. I much prefer a seeking mind and faith to a rigid one that allows no room for thought, resulting in the humility that recognizes we do depend on God for the answers, not a book written by who knows who, where and when and under what cricumstances.

What book are you referring to? The Bible?

Science is only a tool used by men. It consists of observations, testing and experimentation. However, as the Church has pointed out, there is a relationship between the object and the observer. In other words, we can see evidence of design in nature or decide we don’t.

Humility before God is different than humility before man. God is perfect, man is not. The Catholic Church however, rightly combines science with divinely revealed truth to provide the whole, complete answer. Science, as it is presently defined, is unable to do that on its own. Further, those who are scientists do a great disservice to the world when they use scientific information to denounce God and to distort man’s true nature and deny his true identity. These are the things that most concern me.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Memaw]

Again, a matter of interpretation. Before our vast systems of communication were invented, before the wheel, perhaps, an individual’s “WORLD” was much smaller than what we know today and since the Bible was written by individuals with an imprerfect understanding and interpretation of God and nature, couldn’t the floods have occurred in “Local Worlds”? There is evidence of massive floods during ancient times on a local basis, ie individual countries that were flooded. I believe this is a possibility of what happened in Noah’s Sumer. Also, we all know scientifically that all species of animals aren’t indiginous to all parts of the world, so Noah saved two of each of the animals that were known in his “World”. I don’t know how much of what is written by anyone can be taken literally. Where does Faith end and blind ignorance begin?

The Bible is written by men but INSPIRED by God, and HE knows exactly how everything works, HE doesn’t need our vast systems of communication. I ask again, “How much water would it take to float an Ark that is at least as big as the Queen Mary?” I don’t think a ‘local’ flood would do it. For me, faith never ends, until I get to Heaven, which is my greatest hope.

 

[Namesake]

The Bible is written by men but INSPIRED by God, and HE knows exactly how everything works, HE doesn’t need our vast systems of communication. I ask again, “How much water would it take to float an Ark that is at least as big as the Queen Mary?” I don’t think a ‘local’ flood would do it. For me, faith never ends, until I get to Heaven, which is my greatest hope.

I wonder why the Egyptians didn’t record it?

 

[The_Barbarian]

The Bible is written by men but INSPIRED by God, and HE knows exactly how everything works, HE doesn’t need our vast systems of communication. I ask again, “How much water would it take to float an Ark that is at least as big as the Queen Mary?” I don’t think a ‘local’ flood would do it.

Many local floods would have done it. The one that occured in the Middle East about that time, certainly would have done it; it created the Black Sea.

For me, faith never ends, until I get to Heaven, which is my greatest hope.

Let your faith be in God, and the teaching of the Church, not the personal interpretations of scripture by men.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Regarding the Flood:

I wonder why the Egyptians didn’t record it?

Inobservant varmints weren’t they?

 

[elt1956]

The Bible is written by men but INSPIRED by God, and HE knows exactly how everything works, HE doesn’t need our vast systems of communication. I ask again, “How much water would it take to float an Ark that is at least as big as the Queen Mary?” I don’t think a ‘local’ flood would do it. For me, faith never ends, until I get to Heaven, which is my greatest hope.

God knows everthing, but WE don’t. Don’t you think humans could have misinterpreted God’s words and actions, just as has occurred thousands of times over the course of history, including the history of the Catholic Church? As far as how wide and big the flood was during Noah’s time, we as yet have no physical evidence to prove it was worldwide. As I said in a previous post, the flood may have been contained only in a small area of “Noah’s World”. And it is true ONLY God has the ultimate answers. It is up to us to seek those truths, but we will never know with certainty the mind of God. Only by prayer and Faith in God alone will all thinkgs one day be revealed.

 

[Philipp]

I wonder why the Egyptians didn’t record it?

PHILIPP: Just about every culture throughout the world has recorded THE event as their tradition dictated including and especially our Jewish brethern, by Moses, ~ 1000 years or so after tablets of another culture in that region were discovered.
We as Catholic believe in divine revelation, don’t we???

The Moslim Kurds of today think it is still on Greater Mt. Ararat; some have claimed to have seen (19th century) it, even been inside it but of course that is pure fundamentalism that has been trashed long ago by the Modernists.

There was once a famous Eastern Orthodox Monastery on one side of this huge Mtn. before it blew out ~1840 - now called the Ahora Gorge [deeper than the Grand Canyon]. Visitors to the monastary before 1840 had reported seen wood taken from the Ark. All this can be found in many books on the Ark and Mt. Ararat or I assume by googling.

Mt. Ararat is a volcano with pillow lava on its sides of which I’ve seen photos so it was under water at one time but no doubt no where the 16,900 or feet as at present.

I will rely on the word of God as to the event and the details. Perhaps some lucky archaeologist will find a tablet in Egypt that may discuss the event in more detail. There is no evidence that the Egyptians did not record it and the fact that most other cultures did including the Chinese is just more evidence that such an event did indeed occur. Bible History is

 

[Namesake]

PHILIPP: Just about every culture throughout the world has recorded THE event as their tradition dictated including and especially our Jewish brethern, by Moses, ~ 1000 years or so after tablets of another culture in that region were discovered.
We as Catholic believe in divine revelation, don’t we???

The Moslim Kurds of today think it is still on Greater Mt. Ararat; some have claimed to have seen (19th century) it, even been inside it but of course that is pure fundamentalism that has been trashed long ago by the Modernists.

There was once a famous Eastern Orthodox Monastery on one side of this huge Mtn. before it blew out ~1840 - now called the Ahora Gorge [deeper than the Grand Canyon]. Visitors to the monastary before 1840 had reported seen wood taken from the Ark. All this can be found in many books on the Ark and Mt. Ararat or I assume by googling.

Mt. Ararat is a volcano with pillow lava on its sides of which I’ve seen photos so it was under water at one time but no doubt no where the 16,900 or feet as at present.

I will rely on the word of God as to the event and the details. Perhaps some lucky archaeologist will find a tablet in Egypt that may discuss the event in more detail. There is no evidence that the Egyptians did not record it and the fact that most other cultures did including the Chinese is just more evidence that such an event did indeed occur. Bible History is

The Egyptians were nearly obsessed with recording historical events. There is no record of the flood of Genesis in any Egyptian documents. I can’t prove a negative, but no one has produced Egyptian documents that record the flood. The scientific record suggests it didn’t happen.

 

[drpmjhess]

PHILIPP: Just about every culture throughout the world has recorded

Mt. Ararat is a volcano with pillow lava on its sides of which I’ve seen photos so it was under water at one time but no doubt no where the 16,900 or feet as at present.

(1) The Bible is not a history book, although it does contain elements of historical writing (Kings, Chronicles, etc.) Genesis is composed largely of the genres of myth and legend; Exodus contains the foundation narrative of the flight from Egypt.

(2) There is no historic record of large-scale volcanic activity on Ararat, although it may have erupted some time during the last 10000 years.

(3) Of course most civilization have a flood story; most civilizations took their start in river valleys, where catastrophic floods would work their way into the culture’s foundation.

 

[drpmjhess]

The Bible is written by men but INSPIRED by God, and HE knows exactly how everything works, HE doesn’t need our vast systems of communication. I ask again, “How much water would it take to float an Ark that is at least as big as the Queen Mary?”

Memaw, how did Moses get the Australian marsupials to cross the Pacific Ocean, India, and the Himalaya to get to Mesopotamia? How did he get them back to Australia after the flood, or did he drop them off at their destination before navigating back to Ararat? Divine helicopters?

And you still haven’t told me how you solved the problem of thousands of tons of animal dung per day. Even if elephants and mammoths and mastodons were not “clean” animals (necessitating seven pairs of each), you still have at least eight of these creatures, each producing 200 pounds of manure per day. That’s 1,600 pounds of **** just for one clade. Multiply that many-fold and you’ve got a huge problem of manure dispolal, which would have occupied every waking moment of Noah, Ham, Shem, and Japeth.

And you still haven’t answered the water problem – all 29,035 feet of it!

It’s a great story, and wonderful to hear during the Easter Vigil.

 

[elt1956]

What book are you referring to? The Bible?

Science is only a tool used by men. It consists of observations, testing and experimentation. However, as the Church has pointed out, there is a relationship between the object and the observer. In other words, we can see evidence of design in nature or decide we don’t.

Humility before God is different than humility before man. God is perfect, man is not. The Catholic Church however, rightly combines science with divinely revealed truth to provide the whole, complete answer. Science, as it is presently defined, is unable to do that on its own. Further, those who are scientists do a great disservice to the world when they use scientific information to denounce God and to distort man’s true nature and deny his true identity. These are the things that most concern me.

God bless,
Ed

Hi. I think what I was referring to (after all, it’s been more than five minutes…long term memory loss.) was the discussion as to whether the Bible is exact as regards History, especially of the Old Testament as compared to Evolution. As you say, God is perfect and humans are not. So my theory is that we can’t be sure that either the History of the Bible or evolution has all the answers. To me, Evolution, or any Science is imperfect in that it is indeed constructed by humans. I admire Science because it questions and investigates. But also, to me, the history given in the Bible is also imperfect as far as human minds can understand it. It is just in recent years that through archeology, some of the place names given in the Bible have been found to have indeed existed. Perhaps one day the Bible will prove science is correct, instead of science trying to prove, or disprove the Bible. We with our finite minds may never know. This is where faith in God, that all will be well, no matter what comes to bear.

 

[Memaw]

Many local floods would have done it. The one that occured in the Middle East about that time, certainly would have done it; it created the Black Sea.

Let your faith be in God, and the teaching of the Church, not the personal interpretations of scripture by men.

Here you go again, insinuating you are the only one with faith in GOD. Please get off your high horse and stop telling us what we do or don’t believe. I don’t agree with you on many things especially your attitude. I think your letting all this evolution stuff go to your head and you need a little humility. Like I said before, thats not what will help us get to Heaven, but Trust in God will. Only HE has all the answers.