Is The Theory of Evolution mandatory for the modern worldview

[edwest2]

Pretty much like your cookbook doesn’t require God, or your plumbing manual doesn’t require God. Your sense of pride is offended that your physical body can be accounted for in naturalistic terms. (even if your soul cannot)

But God isn’t required to consider your pride. Let Him be God.

And God requires me to be humble, not prideful. You worship the textbook, which is incomplete. The Catholic Church has divine truth which is missing from the textbook. “We are not some casual, meaningless product of evolution.” - Pope Benedict.

The United States Supreme Court agreed to forcibly sterilize those deemed unfit so they wouldn’t contaminate the gene pool.

God bless,
Ed

 

[drpmjhess]

The United States Supreme Court agreed to forcibly sterilize those deemed unfit so they wouldn’t contaminate the gene pool. QUOTE]

Ed, what on earth does that have to do with anything in the argument?

 

[reggieM]

However, he told me that mechanics is a profession that can be practiced by atheists and theists alike; he assured me that it is God-neutral, just like plumbing or biology.

Interesting that Cardinal Schoenborn wrote a book last year about evolution explaining the philosophical problems that the theory entails.

Given your wildly humorous satire we should expect our Cardinals to write about the latest techniques in auto repair as well.

You’re trying to cover-up the problem. But it’s obvious to anyone who has read the Pope’s writings on creation as well as the countless internet postings on the evolution/creation controversy that there are many serious philosophical and theological issues at stake in this controversy.

Clearly, the Holy See does not see evolutionary theory as merely a “neutral” concept “just like plumbing”.

I find it sad that you guys are taking this tactic – putting your heads in the sand and pretending that there is nothing discuss on the evolution topic from a Catholic context – no more than one would discuss plumbing or auto mechanics.

It’s not even that you’re dismissing any threat that the theory poses (clumsy and incongrous attempts to reconcile Darwin with Catholicism notwithstanding) – but you’re trying to claim that Darwinism makes no statement whatsoever about the actions of God in the universe.

But then I watch you guys struggle to explain what God has actually done in the universe. Your task has become almost impossible because Darwinism has, indeed, limited what we can believe about God’s actions.

If someone proposes that God directly created species of animals from no pre-existing matter – Darwinists state that is wrong.

Thus, Darwinism clearly says much about God.

 

[anthony022071]

Barbarian obsrves:
If consciousness is the result of physical processes, then it can evolve.

It isn’t the result of physical processes. It has to do with soul,essence,the ability to make decisions and to abstract.

If it’s not the result of physical processes, it has no bearing on the issue of human evolution.

If it has no bearing on the issue of evolution,then man cannot be said to be the product of evolution,since man is defined by his rational mind and soul,not merely his physical attributes.

Hmmm… which scientist says that evolutionary theory shows man to be merely a product of physical processes?

Jaques Monod.

What evolutionary theory says that man is the product of anything else but physical processes?

 

[reggieM]

“We are not some casual, meaningless product of evolution.” - Pope Benedict.

Thanks for repeating that. It needs to be said again and again, until people understand it.

That’s quite a severe warning about evolution from Pope Benedict.

But I have also heard that evolution is of no more threat to humanity than is plumbing.

Obviously, that rhetoric about the evolution-plumbing connection is a deception and manipulation of the truth.

The Pope does not warn about plumbing or auto-mechanics.

This is a fact that the pro-Darwinists here have not even acknowledged, must less truly come to grips with.

The Pope has made it clear that the theory of evolution brings a very serious matter for the understanding of humanity and of salvation. We are not a casual, meaningless product of evolution.

 

[drpmjhess]

The Pope has made it clear that the theory of evolution brings a very serious matter for the understanding of humanity and of salvation. We are not a casual, meaningless product of evolution.

Right – the popes have made it clear both that we are products of evolution, and that we are not meaningless products of evolution. Why is the difference so difficult for you to grasp?

 

[anthony022071]

He says it’s “virtually certain.”

Perhaps we should let him explain why:

You should have noticed that the whole point of the document was to re-affirm the Catholic teaching on Creation and the “special creation” of man. How could you have missed that?

Why does he favor Darwinism above other, no longer accepted theories of evolution?

As you should know, Darwin’s great discovery was that it was not by chance.

That was not Darwin’s discovery,that was the revelation that was given to the Jews. Cardinal Ratzinger went over the uniqueness and the implications of the Creation story in his book “In the Beginning”.

Yes, notice that the central claim of Darwinism is said by the Pope to be “virtually certain.”

Don’t read too much into that. Read the rest of the document.
He’s being 'generous" toward natural science,just like he is generous toward disbelieving philosophers and dissident theologians. He says that that common descent is virtually certain,and yet he goes on to re-affirm the absolute certainty of the Catholic view of Creation,and the special creation of man,which fundamentally contradicts the view of natual science.

Another reason the Pope approves of Darwinian theory; as you should know, Darwin attributed the origin of life to God.

Where did Cardinal Ratzinger say that?

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.
Darwin’s last sentence in The Origin of Species

How about that?

Darwin says that life was originally breathed by the Creator into forms.

The Catholic Church’s view is that God is always the Creator,that all life is always dependent upon the Creator,and that human persons are created,not evolved.

 

[anthony022071]

Right – the popes have made it clear both that we are products of evolution, and that we are not meaningless products of evolution. Why is the difference so difficult for you to grasp?

Why is it difficult for you to grasp that the popes have made it clear that we are God’s special creation? They have not said that we are products of evolution.

A product of evolution is can only be meaningless,because evolution has nothing to do with reason or purpose,but rather with chance and necessity.

 

[drpmjhess]

A product of evolution is can only be meaningless,because evolution has nothing to do with reason or purpose,but rather with chance and necessity.

Not true at all. Look around you at the beauty and intricacy of the world, produced over 3.5 billion years through evolution. I wouldn’t call that meaningless at all!

 

[The_Barbarian]

[quoteWhy is it difficult for you to grasp that the popes have made it clear that we are God’s special creation? They have not said that we are products of evolution.
[/quote]

They have said both. Because that is the truth.

This concept of man’s rule or sovereignty plays an important role in Christian theology. God appoints man as his steward in the manner of the master in the Gospel parables (cf. Luke 19:12). The only creature willed expressly by God for his own sake occupies a unique place at the summit of visible creation (Gen 1:26; 2:20; Ps 8:6-7; Wisdom 9:2-3)…While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5-4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage.
Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI

A product of evolution is can only be meaningless

In that, you have dissented from the teaching of The Church.

 

[Philipp]

Yesterday, 8:02 pm
edwest2
Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2007
Posts: 1,562

Re: Is The Theory of Evolution mandatory for the modern worldview

---

My cookbook does not tell me how I got here.

My auto repair manual does not tell me how I got here.

My do-it-yourself plumbing manual does not tell me how I got here.

But that biology textbook - I’m just like a salt crystal, and due to a lot of random mutations and natural selection, which had all of them gone just a little bit differently, I might look like an ant - I’m me. From slime to human being - just billions of years of dice rolling. No God required.

God bless,
Ed

Phillip says: Sock it to them Ed West, Anthony and Memaw.
et. al. You won’t change their “deeply held religious belief” in the “Blind Watchmaker” but you have strenghtned our belief that the “Word” trumphs the deception of macroevolution and its alleged long ages.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Phillip says: Sock it to them Ed West, Anthony and Memaw.
et. al. You won’t change their “deeply held religious belief” in the “Blind Watchmaker” but you have strenghtned our belief that the “Word” trumphs the deception of macroevolution and its alleged long ages.

The Church has had dissenters before. Neither Ed nor Anthony, nor Memaw is likely to overthrow the magisterium.

Hopefully, this won’t estrange them further from the Church.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Barbarian, regarding the Pope’s acceptance of common descent:
He says it’s “virtually certain.”

Perhaps we should let him explain why:

Didn’t you read it? Here:
"While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5-4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage."

That’s why.

You should have noticed that the whole point of the document was to re-affirm the Catholic teaching on Creation and the “special creation” of man. How could you have missed that?

You didn’t read it, did you? Here’s what I quote just before that section:
"This concept of man’s rule or sovereignty plays an important role in Christian theology. God appoints man as his steward in the manner of the master in the Gospel parables (cf. Luke 19:12). The only creature willed expressly by God for his own sake occupies a unique place at the summit of visible creation (Gen 1:26; 2:20; Ps 8:6-7; Wisdom 9:2-3)"

You’re having trouble reconciling these two facts. But the Pope understands it.

Barbarian observes:
Why does he favor Darwinism above other, no longer accepted theories of evolution?

As you should know, Darwin’s great discovery was that it was not by chance.

That was not Darwin’s discovery

Yes, that’s what he discovered. There were many theories of evolution, as scientists began to realize that forms of organisms had changed over time. Darwin’s discovery of natural selection made it clear that it was not by chance.

Barbarian observes:
Yes, notice that the central claim of Darwinism is said by the Pope to be “virtually certain.”

Don’t read too much into that.

He acknowledges the truth of evolution. What more do you want to read into it?

Read the rest of the document.

You didn’t even read the parts I posted. Howe do you think I know about them?

He’s being 'generous" toward natural science

He’s admitting things he knows are untrue to be “generous?” C’mon. You know better. He’s merely acknowledging the facts.

just like he is generous toward disbelieving philosophers and dissident theologians.

He says they are virtually certain to be right? C’mon. Be realistic here.

He says that that common descent is virtually certain,and yet he goes on to re-affirm the absolute certainty of the Catholic view of Creation,and the special creation of man,which fundamentally contradicts the view of natual science.

So the Pope is advocating two things which he knows to be contradictory? That’s a very insulting accusation.

Barbarian observes:
Another reason the Pope approves of Darwinian theory; as you should know, Darwin attributed the origin of life to God.

Where did Cardinal Ratzinger say that?

Darwin said that. His theory is completely compatible with God.

"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved."
Darwin’s last sentence in The Origin of Species

How about that?

Darwin says that life was originally breathed by the Creator into forms.

Yep. He believed that God created living things.

The Catholic Church’s view is that God is always the Creator,that all life is always dependent upon the Creator,and that human persons are created,not evolved.

Well, maybe you better tell the Pope. He seems to differ with you on that question of Christian faith.

 

[Memaw]

Barbarian observes:
So by not explicitly including God, plumbing excludes God? You’re a very odd person, Reggie.

Um, darn, it was ed that dissented from the magisterium that time. Sorry about that. And yes, I took you to task for accusing me of things I didn’t write, so it’s only fair I apologize to you. You guys tend to make the same sorts of arguments, sometimes it’s easy to confuse you two. Not that it’s a good excuse.

Just for the record, do you think science or plumbing are atheistic, because they can’t comment on the supernatural?

The plumber wouldn’t have the mind to learn plumbing if it weren’t for God! That is understood…You wouldn’t have the mind to be sooooo silly in your thought if it weren’t for God… FREE WILL, created and given by God, HE said so, thats good enough for me.

 

[The_Barbarian]

The plumber wouldn’t have the mind to learn plumbing if it weren’t for God!

So even if plumbing doesn’t involve God, it’s still part of God’s creation? Now apply that to science. You’ve opened the door just a crack to the truth. Now let it in.

 

[Memaw]

I caught your first version of this post and your edit is an improvement, athough you still have to attack even while apologizing for your error (by saying that my posts are indistinguishable from another person’s). But yes, it’s not a good excuse anyway.

Apology accepted. Thank you.

I don’t understand your question so I can’t answer. It appears to be merely one of your loaded questions designed to entrap a person and cloud the issue. You continue to compare Darwinian evolution with plumbing, as if the former does not carry with it significant philosophical and theological baggage that is impossible to consider in the latter.

Quick!!, someone flush it.

 

[edwest2]

Darwin is not the way, the truth and the life - quit quoting him as if he were the source of the Gospel. He is not.

I will listen only to the Catholic Church. These are the only facts I need:

“An unguided evolutionary process - one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence - simply cannot exist…” Cardinal Ratzinger in Human Persons Created in the Image of God, part 69.

“But it is also true that the theory of evolution is not a complete, scientifically proven theory.” Pope Benedict

The biology textbook does not contain that critical information. I had a conversation with a stranger who said to me: “We’re all just animals.”

That is why Pope Benedict, at his first Mass as Pope, told the faithful: “We are not some casual, meaningless product of evolution.”

Science has zero priority over the Word of God. It must be viewed in accordance with the Word of God and the deposit of faith held by the Catholic Church, especially when it denies the true origin of the human person and the reason for his creation. And yes, through the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, the Church makes pronouncements about science and human behavior all the time.

God bless,
Ed

 

[The_Barbarian]

Darwin is not the way, the truth and the life

Indeed. He’s just the scientist who discovered the mechanism for common descent. No one here said he was the way, the truth and the life. That’s just your strawman.

quit quoting him as if he were the source of the Gospel. He is not.

No one did that. You’d be much more effective if you didn’t argue with yourself.

I will listen only to the Catholic Church.

That would be an improvement. You have repeatedly dissented from the teaching of the Church.

The biology textbook does not contain that critical information.

It’s not supposed to, ed. The Bible isn’t supposed to be a biology textbook. Why is that hard to accept?

And yes, through the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, the Church makes pronouncements about science and human behavior all the time.

This, for example is in that document:

"Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage."

The question is, ed, are you going to continue as a cafeteria Catholic, accepting the parts you like and rejecting the parts you don’t?

Or will you cease rebelling against the magisterium and accept it all?

 

[anthony022071]

They have said both. Because that is the truth.

The pope was putting forth the beliefs of the evolutionists,he was not advocating them as teachings of the Church.

In that, you have dissented from the teaching of The Church.

I have yet to be taught evolution theory by the Church. The teachings of the Church are found in the Catechism and in the decisions of the councils and in papal encyclicals.

 

[Thing]

It’s not supposed to, ed. The Bible isn’t supposed to be a biology textbook. Why is that hard to accept?

This, for example is in that document:

"Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage."

The question is, ed, are you going to continue as a cafeteria Catholic, accepting the parts you like and rejecting the parts you don’t?

Or will you cease rebelling against the magisterium and accept it all?

Can I stick my oar in and say that since all creatures and presumably all the physics and chemistry to create their environments were created by God through Christ, as it were as a light passing through a lens or a filter, then its hardly news that apparently diverse things are closely related. Evolution is strangely reversed with the Christ figure as the original first organism formed - through which atoms, molecules, physical laws, and creatures descend.