E
elt1956
Guest
I think Pope John Paul II had a more open mind than some. He said the same thing that has just been said here. Why repeat it?
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T
The_Barbarian
Guest
Barbarian observes:
Be honest with yourself. Pope Benedict XVI has acknowledged the fact that evolutionary theory is supported by a vast body of evidence. Natural selection is part of that theory. Don’t try to pettifog your way out of this.
Meantime, Cardinal Ratzinger writes:
And, vice versa, the theory of evolution seeks to understand and describe biological developments. But in so doing it cannot explain where the “project” of human persons comes from, nor their inner origin, nor their particular nature. To that extent we are faced here with two complementary – rather than mutually exclusive – realities. Cardinal Ratzinger, In the Beginning
Here he endorses the theory of evolution (of which natural selection is the basic tenet) as a “reality.”
So you can surely understand that people are skeptical of your unsupported assertion that he thinks it’s “absurd.”
Barbarian observes:
I can’t believe you’re serious. Pope John Paul II said:
“All the observations concerning the development of life lead to a similar conclusions. The evolution of living beings, of which science seeks to determine the stages and to discern the mechanism, presents an internal finality which arouses admiration. This finality which directs beings in a direction for which they are not responsible or in charge, obliges one to suppose a Mind which is its inventor, its Creator.”
Barbarian observes:
Methodological naturalism is a method that relies on evidence.
Barbarian observes:
Two ways of saying the same thing. Methodological naturalism is a method that relies on evidence.
What evidence do you think supports sola scriptura?
Barbarian suggests:
Perhaps you never learned the difference between evidence and faith.
Barbarian observes:
Direct observation. For example, one sees it happening in Africa right now. Elephants are being shot for their ivory, and an increasing number of male elephants are born tuskless. Natural selection is now favoring those without tusks.
Barbarian chuckles:
And you didn’t know that this was what evolutionary theory predicts?
Be honest with yourself. Pope Benedict XVI has acknowledged the fact that evolutionary theory is supported by a vast body of evidence. Natural selection is part of that theory. Don’t try to pettifog your way out of this.
I’d like to see that one. Show us.
Meantime, Cardinal Ratzinger writes:
And, vice versa, the theory of evolution seeks to understand and describe biological developments. But in so doing it cannot explain where the “project” of human persons comes from, nor their inner origin, nor their particular nature. To that extent we are faced here with two complementary – rather than mutually exclusive – realities. Cardinal Ratzinger, In the Beginning
Here he endorses the theory of evolution (of which natural selection is the basic tenet) as a “reality.”
So you can surely understand that people are skeptical of your unsupported assertion that he thinks it’s “absurd.”
Barbarian observes:
I can’t believe you’re serious. Pope John Paul II said:
“All the observations concerning the development of life lead to a similar conclusions. The evolution of living beings, of which science seeks to determine the stages and to discern the mechanism, presents an internal finality which arouses admiration. This finality which directs beings in a direction for which they are not responsible or in charge, obliges one to suppose a Mind which is its inventor, its Creator.”
Notice that our present Pope has written that “the theory of evolution” is a reality. The theory of evolution is about natural selection.
Barbarian observes:
Methodological naturalism is a method that relies on evidence.
No, it’s a method. That’s why it’s called methodological.
No. For example, ID depends on faith in an unorthodox religious doctrine.
Barbarian observes:
Two ways of saying the same thing. Methodological naturalism is a method that relies on evidence.
Barbarian asks:
What evidence do you think supports sola scriptura?
So there isn’t any evidence, after all? So much for that argument.
It works. Spectacularly well. Predictions made on the basis of methodological naturalism have been confirmed by later evidence. Nothing we can do works better for understanding the physical universe.
But as, you see, there is abundant evidence for it.
Barbarian suggests:
Perhaps you never learned the difference between evidence and faith.
You don’t understand the difference, because you aren’t a scientist, and you seem to have not paid attention in school. The difference between evidence and interpretation is quite strict in the scientific method.
Barbarian observes:
Direct observation. For example, one sees it happening in Africa right now. Elephants are being shot for their ivory, and an increasing number of male elephants are born tuskless. Natural selection is now favoring those without tusks.
You really think that’s what evolutionary theory says? Amazing. Of course not. What happens is that elephants with tusks tend to get shot, so the alleles for tusks tend to become more and more scarce, and so tusks get smaller or absent altogether. This is 8th grade science. Why don’t you know it?
Then why did you pretend it was about elephants figuring out how not to grow tusks? Do yourself a favor. Be honest.
It would work the same if (for example) there was a virus that was fatal for elephants with tusks. You’re running out of excuses.
Barbarian chuckles:
And you didn’t know that this was what evolutionary theory predicts?
I don’t think name-calling is going to save you at this point.
M
mathematician
Guest
How do you know that? It is exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, to devise an empirically water tight test for the existence of consciousness. Strictly speaking, I do not even know that anybody other than me is conscious; although it does seem highly likely.
So far as I know not even materialists postulate the existence of an organ called consciousness.
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Memaw
Guest
We’ll be around to see the end of OUR earth, death, and who knows, maybe even the end of everyones. You don’t know when that day will come and neither do I, and NO scientist can tell us when that day will be either.
As far as if an asteroid ever hits earth. even thats in God’s Divine Providence, if that ever happens. As to what would happen to life on earth if it did, your only guessing, just like men have done for centuries. My guess is as good as yours. But I think I’ll leave all that up to God, HE KNOWS, HE doesn’t have to guess.
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Philipp
Guest
T
The_Barbarian
Guest
(asssertion that the Pope says natural selection is absurd)
Barbarian suggests
I’d like to see that one. Show us.
(no one can find it)
Isn’t that surprising?
And yes, we have numerous examples of primitive whales and certainly can trace their ancestry through transitional fossils. And the DNA analysis shows that it is correct.
The others are equally edited to make it appear that they don’t believe what they know is true. Lewin was pointing out the necessity of doing more than a superficial “well they look kinda the same” analysis.
Never quote something you don’t understand. It will always embarass you.
Barbarian suggests
I’d like to see that one. Show us.
(no one can find it)
Isn’t that surprising?
Good idea. Let’s start with cytochrome c phylogenies. Turns out that even though it depends on the random neutral mutations that alter the site on cytochrome c that don’t change its function, these mutations sort out into a phylogeny of all living things that very closely matches those obtained by other methods. Can you give us an alternative explaination (other than Godmustadunnit)?
Ah, the quotemining game. OK. Hold onto your socks…
This is the problem of homologous vs. analogous organs. For example, a shark and a dolphin look superficially the same, because they had the same selective pressures and natural selection brought them to the same solutions. But a closer look shows why they are analogous, and not homologues. The shark has a vertical tail fin because the primitive myotome system of chordates was set up for side-to side motion. But because whales evoved from animals that swam like otters with and up-and-down motion,(ambulocetids) we see a vertical fluke. And of course, the heart, lungs, digestive system, etc. of whales is all mammalian, and the shark all those of fish. And DNA shows the whale to be the relative of ungulates, not fish.
And yes, we have numerous examples of primitive whales and certainly can trace their ancestry through transitional fossils. And the DNA analysis shows that it is correct.
The others are equally edited to make it appear that they don’t believe what they know is true. Lewin was pointing out the necessity of doing more than a superficial “well they look kinda the same” analysis.
Never quote something you don’t understand. It will always embarass you.
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Memaw
Guest
Maybe it shouldn’t be!!!
M
Memaw
Guest
I do listen to him and you can be as sarcastic as you want but that just shows where your at in life.Your pastor is right, I suggest you listen to him.
E
Ender
Guest
I agree with you. I believe that consciousness has been dealt with mostly as a philosophical construct. If it exists only in you then the world is not at all as it seems; you are in something like the matrix. For practical reasons that’s not all that interesting to presume.
True … I thought I made that point as well. The issue is that consciousness exists in man so it must be presumed to have evolved but it is also non-material so science cannot explain it or say anything at all about it … at least this is what The Barbarian claimed way back in post #8.
Ender
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Memaw
Guest
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The_Barbarian
Guest
The book in which he endorses evolution? I thought you disagreed with evolution.
M
Memaw
Guest
The sun is approx. 93 Million miles from Earth. If the Earth was just 10 miles closer to the sun, we would burn up, life could NOT exist. and if we were just 10 miles farther away from the sun,we would freeze. NOW just WHO do you suppose put us and keeps us in the exact spot we need to sustain life here. 10 miles, out of 93 million, hardly seems significant.but it IS. Science, as smart as it is, has never proven that there is life of ANY kind on any other planet besides ours. WHY, tell me why, if you can. Since we seem to have an abundance of varities of life on Earth, why didn’t the same big bang have any effect any other planet. Are we that important to SOMEONE???
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Memaw
Guest
Read it again.
P
Philipp
Guest
PHILIPP: I agree. We will never know because the evol ones had it all worng on the dates when catastrophes happened but it could be sooner thant later. ET’s are millions and perhaps billions of years off the target as C-14 dating suggests. I gave an example of one such event with Australites in which C-14 dating gave ages of 7,000 to 13,000 RC years whereas two different methods agreed with each other at ~800,000 RC years but were dead wrong based on C-14. No response from the residents just one little tickler on Pompei dating.
Meanwhile here is another quote from other ET’s:
THEORY DOMINATED DATA, DAVID PILBEAM, Yale, “I am also aware of the fact that, at least in my own subject of paleoanthropology, ‘theory’ - heavily influenced by implicit ideas - almost always dominates ‘data.’ …Ideas that are totally unrelated to actual fossils have dominated theory building, which in turn strongly influences the way fossils are interpreted.” Quoted in Bones of Contention, p.127
PARANORMAL ANTHROPOLOGY, Lord Zolly Zuckerman, “We then move right off the register of objective truth into those fields of presumed biological science, like extrasensory perception or the interpretation of man’s fossil history, where to the faithful anything is possible - and where the ardent believer is sometimes able to believe several contradictory things at the same time.” BEYOND THE IVORY TOWER, p.19
Our poor pope is apparently being deceived by the same theologians and evol believers that haunt CA threads.
God help us.
M
mathematician
Guest
It sounds to me as if he has got a garbled version of the strong anthropomorphic principle. The earth’s orbit around the sun is elliptical, and its distance from the sun varies by a great deal more than ten miles each year. If he wants to use science to argue the likelihood of God’s existence, he should at least try reading something like the physicist Paul Davies’ book
first. (“The Mind of God”). Or John Polkinghorne, for that matter (another welll known physicist). Garbled rubbish only gives atheists the ammunition they need.
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Philipp
Guest
Below is an introduction to a web site regarding fossil human and dinosaur footprilnts together [second paragraph]Another web site www.creationevidence.org is again under reconstruction due to a viscious virus that took it off the Internet and a second time after hackers put in pornogaphy—sorry that is not available but I hope to post some that I save in a later post.
“Below are photos of the Paluxy River TX where dozens of fossil human footprints are found with dinosaur ones.” Go to
www.bible.ca/tracks/taylor-trail.htm for photos and much more.
NOTE: The pictures could not be reproduced here for whatever reason, I did try. I therefore urge that you look at this web site noted above which also challenges some Catholic teachings but NOT of the church fathers or Latern 1 and Latern 2 [as do the evol ones on this thread]. The foundation of Christian faith however is supported by this web site managers as is the data. When the Barbarian, Phil Vaz ad nauseum attacks this and other web sites please also go www.omniology.com for refutation of their outdated claims regarding the Paluxy River fossil footprints.
CONTINUED on the bible we site:
The Taylor Trail:
A series of 14 sequential human footprints on the same platform with at least 134 dinosaur tracks. [Philipp observes that in 1999
the river dired up, and the Taylor trail of dinosasur and human footprints was molded with rubberized material and is now in several museum exhibits for all to see; [Philipp says: I have seen the casts of the molds in one museum - very impressive and destorys the theory of evolution along with the many other prints found in a pristine manner under tons of Cretaceous strata.
Introduction [continued on www.bible.ca/tracks/taylor-trail.htm ]
Here is a photo of the Paluxy River in Glen Rose Texas. This rapidly flowing river runs through the middle of Dinosaur Valley State Park, famous for its dinosaur tracks. Not as well known is the fact that human tracks have also been found, not only in the same formation, but on the same bedding plane and in some cases overlapping the dinosaur tracks. [see web site]
Stan Taylor (pointing at track) began his excavation of the Taylor Trail in 1969 and continued working through 1972. Initially, only two tracks could be seen in the Paluxy River bed.
(Click on photo for high resolution)
By following the trail back under the river bank, seven more very human like tracks were exposed. The process involved removing tons of limestone overburden, effectively eliminating the possibility that the tracks were carved.
(Click on photo for high resolution)
The Taylor Trail, as it normally appears in the river under water. Subsequent excavation has extended the trail to a total of fourteen tracks in a consistent right-left pattern. The entire sequence can be seen through the water in this 1994 photograph, even though a thin layer of mud obscures the details. A trail of three-toed dinosaur tracks can be seen crossing at an angle of approximately 30 degrees.
(Click on photo for high resolution)
The drought of 1999 revealed the entire trail in dramatic detail!
(Click on photo for high resolution)
“Below are photos of the Paluxy River TX where dozens of fossil human footprints are found with dinosaur ones.” Go to
www.bible.ca/tracks/taylor-trail.htm for photos and much more.
NOTE: The pictures could not be reproduced here for whatever reason, I did try. I therefore urge that you look at this web site noted above which also challenges some Catholic teachings but NOT of the church fathers or Latern 1 and Latern 2 [as do the evol ones on this thread]. The foundation of Christian faith however is supported by this web site managers as is the data. When the Barbarian, Phil Vaz ad nauseum attacks this and other web sites please also go www.omniology.com for refutation of their outdated claims regarding the Paluxy River fossil footprints.
CONTINUED on the bible we site:
The Taylor Trail:
A series of 14 sequential human footprints on the same platform with at least 134 dinosaur tracks. [Philipp observes that in 1999
the river dired up, and the Taylor trail of dinosasur and human footprints was molded with rubberized material and is now in several museum exhibits for all to see; [Philipp says: I have seen the casts of the molds in one museum - very impressive and destorys the theory of evolution along with the many other prints found in a pristine manner under tons of Cretaceous strata.
Introduction [continued on www.bible.ca/tracks/taylor-trail.htm ]
Here is a photo of the Paluxy River in Glen Rose Texas. This rapidly flowing river runs through the middle of Dinosaur Valley State Park, famous for its dinosaur tracks. Not as well known is the fact that human tracks have also been found, not only in the same formation, but on the same bedding plane and in some cases overlapping the dinosaur tracks. [see web site]
Stan Taylor (pointing at track) began his excavation of the Taylor Trail in 1969 and continued working through 1972. Initially, only two tracks could be seen in the Paluxy River bed.
(Click on photo for high resolution)
By following the trail back under the river bank, seven more very human like tracks were exposed. The process involved removing tons of limestone overburden, effectively eliminating the possibility that the tracks were carved.
(Click on photo for high resolution)
The Taylor Trail, as it normally appears in the river under water. Subsequent excavation has extended the trail to a total of fourteen tracks in a consistent right-left pattern. The entire sequence can be seen through the water in this 1994 photograph, even though a thin layer of mud obscures the details. A trail of three-toed dinosaur tracks can be seen crossing at an angle of approximately 30 degrees.
(Click on photo for high resolution)
The drought of 1999 revealed the entire trail in dramatic detail!
(Click on photo for high resolution)
N
Namesake
Guest
]
Here is a photo of the Paluxy River in Glen Rose Texas. This rapidly flowing river runs through the middle of Dinosaur Valley State Park, famous for its dinosaur tracks. Not as well known is the fact that human tracks have also been found, not only in the same formation, but on the same bedding plane and in some cases overlapping the dinosaur tracks. [see web site]
Stan Taylor (pointing at track) began his excavation of the Taylor Trail in 1969 and continued working through 1972. Initially, only two tracks could be seen in the Paluxy River bed.
(Click on photo for high resolution)
By following the trail back under the river bank, seven more very human like tracks were exposed. The process involved removing tons of limestone overburden, effectively eliminating the possibility that the tracks were carved.
(Click on photo for high resolution)
The Taylor Trail, as it normally appears in the river under water. Subsequent excavation has extended the trail to a total of fourteen tracks in a consistent right-left pattern. The entire sequence can be seen through the water in this 1994 photograph, even though a thin layer of mud obscures the details. A trail of three-toed dinosaur tracks can be seen crossing at an angle of approximately 30 degrees.
(Click on photo for high resolution)
The drought of 1999 revealed the entire trail in dramatic detail!
(Click on photo for high resolution)
Are you serious?
M
Memaw
Guest
Don’t believe everything they say the Pope says cuz much is taken out of context and the meaning is changed.
I think some have put up a big barrier between themselves and the Church and they take it out on the Church. They know they are wrong and thats why they bend over backwards trying to tell us we’re wrong. They have a problem with their faith and it shows.
M
Memaw
Guest
I didn’t make this up. I heard it from a scientist that knows much more than you do and he has written text books on the subject!!
M
mathematician
Guest
He can’t be that much of a scientist if he doesn’t even know that the earth’s orbit around the sun is elliptical. In fact I would say he would have to be a complete fraudster to come up with that.
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