Is the tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe truly miraculous?

  • Thread starter Thread starter catholic1seeks
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

catholic1seeks

Guest
What evidence is there that the tilma is authentic and miraculous? Is it true that their are no brush marks?

Thank you
 
catholic1seeks said:
What evidence is there that the tilma is authentic and miraculous? Is it true that their are no brush marks?

Thank you
Click to expand...
After reading counter arguments, on this subject, I’m inclined to believe that the tilma is not authentic. Studies have been done that reportedly reveal sketch marks, priming of the canvas, and the various substances the paint was was derived from. Moreover, you have to ask yourself, if this image is some miraculous imprint, why does it just happen to perfectly align with the prevailing style of the day among 16th century painters particularly those in New Spain?

Convincing cases are made in these two links that the tilma is not miraculous but instead a painting or a copy of a painting, perhaps created by the artist Marcos Cipac de Aquino.

opencourses.uoa.gr/modules/document/file.php/ENL9/Instructional%20Package/Texts//Readings/Chicana%20Movement-%20Further%20Reading/Peterson%20Creating%20the%20Virgin%20of%20Guadalupe.pdf

csicop.org/sb/show/miraculous_image_of_guadalupe
 
Matthew91 said:
After reading counter arguments, on this subject, I’m inclined to believe that the tilma is not authentic.
Click to expand...
For some reason I never thought I’d see this statement here at CA. But I happen to agree with you. A few years ago I read some articles that convinced me - one was the article you linked to by Joe Nickell.
 
hmmmmmm…

so if the tilma is not authentic, was the apparition authentic?

And if not, is Juan Diego not a real saint?
 
These “articles” are written by atheists. Don’t be persuaded to disbelieve just because a couple skeptics with PhD’s in subjects other than science give their misguided advice on an issue.
 
IT is a true image - I disagree with other - it cause the biggest conversion of people in the history of the Catholic Church - some times 15000 people a day were baptized in to the faith. 9 to 10 million people were converted and it goes on even today - the conversion happen from the lowest in the society to the highest - usually it happens the other way around

She came as a mother to all and I mean all people

It is a picture of a beautiful indigenous women who also happen to be pregnant - how do you know she is pregnant? The yellow ribbon she is wearing around her waste - which is what Aztec women would wear to show they are pregnant - all native people and people of color can relate to her - she is also the Patron Saint of the Philippines - as soon as they saw her with the dark skin they related with her - the colors and the moon are also representations of the ancient Aztecs - so I would hardly think the Spanish painted it. the is no primer on the base and no varnish to preserve it - the image is exactly the same on the back as the front - there is a refection in both her eyes of 13 people - exact reflection in both eyes other than the size difference that would be in real eyes when they show a reflection. Acid was spilled on the picture but did not harm it and a bomb was exploded below the picture but the glass did not break that cover the picture yet the explosion blew out all the glass in the church and houses across from it - deny it if you want but it is one of the greatest holy images in the Catholic Church.

I forgot to add she is crushing the devil in the image also.

One of the greatest things about the picture is that she chose to show her self as an indigenous person which must drive racist people crazy.

Today December 12 is Her Day - say the pray to honor her if you like.

Our Lady of Guadalupe

Perfect ever holy Virgin Mary
Mother of the True God for whom we live
You, who are truly our compassionate Mother
we seek you, we beseech you
Mercifully heed our cries and our suffering
Heal our sorrows, our afflictions and our pain
Gentle and loving Mother
Shelter us in the hollow of your mantle
in the folds of your arms
Let nothing distress nor disturb our hearts
Reveal to us your beloved son
so that with him and in him
we may find salvation
and the salvation of the world
Most holy Virgin Mary of Guadalupe
make us your messengers
messengers of the word
and of the will of God
Amen
 
catholic1seeks said:
What evidence is there that the tilma is authentic and miraculous? Is it true that their are no brush marks?

Thank you
Click to expand...
I believe the tilma is authentic and miraculous, my two propositions are this.
  1. A mere painting cannot convert so many people as the tilma did/has unless there is a miraculous attribute to it.
  2. If it is a mere painting, than produce an exact replicate of it already.
The same claims are made with the Shroud of Turin, which I also believe is authentic and miraculous. Many claims try to debunk it, but they never seem to produce an exact replica.

Nevertheless, I have never seen or conducted any scientific examinations on either of these, so I cannot know for sure, and I suspect neither can many posters here, but I have heard of claims reputable witnesses have made and I believe the evidence outweighs the ones who wish to deny it.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
There is paint upon the Tilma, for the simple reason that it was “retouched” in the 1870s.

Many of the more famous elements of the image, e.g. the moon under the feet, the stars on the cape, the angel etc., were not present originally but were added then.

I do believe in the Tilma, but the duration of the fabric is not a convincing argument to me. The Tilma has been zealously protected over time. Even the US Constitution would likely would have disintegrated if treated as papers normally are over time, yet no-one says that its duration makes the USCON miraculous.

OTOH, the images in the eyes on the Tilma, attested by NASA and visible only under ultramagnification, are another matter altogether. Whatever world-class painters lived in Tenochtitlan, they could not create such in 1531.

ICXC NIKA
 
GEddie said:
OTOH, the images in the eyes on the Tilma, attested by NASA and visible only under ultramagnification, are another matter altogether. Whatever world-class painters lived in Tenochtitlan, they could not create such in 1531.

ICXC NIKA
Click to expand...
Attested by NASA? I never heard that NASA was involved in testing or studying the tilma at all.
 
As with all things that are official Apparitions or miracles, yes, MANY scientists are called in to do testing and verify to the best of known science what has transpired.
The eyes on the tilma are said to dilate as well. Upon high magnification, the figure of 3 people are reflected in her eyes: The Priest, the Bishop, and Juan Diego.

Coming form the Southwest, we have always read all about it, and the story is retold every December. It’s a fascinating topic.

Nothing is impossible with God.
Just because some guy is skeptical doesn’t mean he has undone the decades of investigation and authentication of it.

Millions of Mexicans could tell us the story in great detail.
However, we would do well to remember that she is the patroness of the AMERICAS, not just Mexico, and also of the Unborn, as in this apparition she shows herself to be heavily pregnant, as the black sash would have indicated for women in that culture.

Human sacrifice was real, and she converted a vast amount of people, some say the same amount of people lost to the Reformation.

It’s a fascinating topic. The constellations in the background of the tilma have been determined to be the ones that were present on those dates in the night sky. We now have the astrological software to tell us that.
There are many good books on the subject.

But yes, the tilma is real, and miraculous.

Our Lady of Guadalupe…pray for us!
 
Even more impressive, she was as welcomed by the Spanish as by the locals – and the Holy Inquistion was not known for its acceptance of foreign novelties!

ICXC NIKA
 
I asked about these issues here at CAF in the apologetics forum I believe some months ago. Of course this is not a matter of faith, though the Church has found that the devotion is worthy of belief–which matters a lot to me–so much so that Our Lady of Guadalupe is a Feast Day in the Church.

I was referred to this study, by Daniel Castellano:
arcaneknowledge.org/catholic/guadalupe0.htm

The history of the image is complex, and there is much misinformation out there. It’s important to note, I think, that one can believe the basic, miraculous story without believing in every detail. For example, today is St. Lucy’s day, and we know she is a saint, but we don’t know her history well.

I believe the original image on the tilma is miraculous. I find it sad that the face was redone for no reason in the early 20th century. But I know our Lady turns everything to the good.

My understanding is that the painting was examined by master painters in 1666 who found that the image, though painted on a very unsuitable surface, was unsized (not primed so as to be something that could be painted on) and that no living human could paint such a painting.

Also, the image was left exposed to much candlelight and smoke, and air for a long period, and was even touched frequently by devoted lovers of Mary. It should have rapidly fallen apart.

Castellano summarizes the two cases here:
arcaneknowledge.org/catholic/guadalupe14.htm

I find the skeptical approach harder to believe.

Castellano notes that to believe the anti-apparitionist account, one has to believe that the artist worked on an unprimed canvas of very poor quality and that:

“somehow he was able to take advantage of the providentially situated irregularities in the threads to create a subtle, textured face with tender expresion, and to exploit the diffractive properties of the cloth to make the face refulgent”
arcaneknowledge.org/catholic/guadalupe14.htm

Our Lady of Guadalupe, I love you!
 
patricius79 said:
I find it sad that the face was redone for no reason in the early 20th century.
Click to expand...
Not only the face, but other things were added/changed/erased. That’s why I don’t believe it was miraculous. If the early caretakers of the tilma had believed it to be a miraculous painting, they would never have dared to add/change/erase parts of it. How can one improve a miracle? 🤷
 
The whole image was altered in the late 1800s; it is believed,for the purpose of making it “more Indian”:

–darkening of the ‘skin’;

– shortening of the fingers and reshaping of the nose;

– addition of a starry cape, moon under the feet, angel, etc.

As to who would do this, sadly, the 1800s were rife in disbelief.

ICXC NIKA
 
Ok so one big question:

WHY would anyone be allowed to paint over it? Even to the extent of adding new details such as the angel at the bottom? Had the tilma not always been in the church’s hands? I cannot imagine the institutional church - even at the local level - promoting such an important pierce to be retouched and edited (to the extent its composition was altered).

It was believed to be miraculous from the very beginning, right?
 
The Church goes through cycles.

After all, someone was allowed to put a hot poker to the Shroud of Turin, something I’d imagine unthinkable to do to a relic of our LORD!

ICXC NIKA
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top