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Tartini
Guest
What do you think, based on your observations in your given area?
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Hyacinth_II
Guest
It is not really accessible. In my city, people have to travel a long ways to get to a TLM usually…so they don’t get to see it, participate in it, etc. It is not publicized much…one little spot on that parishes website. So, if you happen upon that parishes website…then you find it.
I’ve talked to people in other cities…and it is the same.
Those of us who watch EWTN…know that there is a huge number of people who really want to see the TLM more accessible. We are being ignored, it seems. Probably because the church is not prepared to offier it because a lot of priests are not trained in it.
Those are my thoughts. I think it should be offered at every parish at least for one Mass on every Sunday. Then you’ll be able to ask your question and get an answer based on data that is not tarnished with inaccessibility.
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Seamus_L
Guest
It’s growing slowly, but it is growing, and we’re building on the stone the builders rejected. In the Chicago area, Relevant Radio regularly mentions the Latin Masses said at the Institute of Christ the King in the Woodlawn area, and in recent weeks we’ve gotten daily mention of the Latin Mass at St Mary of Perpetual Help in the Bridgeport area (an architectural masterpiece by the way)
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roveau
Guest
Well you do hear more about it now.
I was pleasantly surprised when I noticed in our little weekly parish news that there was a Latin Mass (TLM) at St Cecilia’s (Wyong) on every Sunday of the month at 3pm. It was a wonderful Mass with all the respect and tradition as I remember from the late 1950s, also a lot of the women wore hats or veils, proper genuflections, Holy Communion on the tongue while keeling where the altar rails used to be.
It’s a very ordinary parish out this way so I was doubly delighted because that would have saved me an expensive and time-consuming trip to Sydney if I wanted to attend a Latin Mass.
Rove
I was pleasantly surprised when I noticed in our little weekly parish news that there was a Latin Mass (TLM) at St Cecilia’s (Wyong) on every Sunday of the month at 3pm. It was a wonderful Mass with all the respect and tradition as I remember from the late 1950s, also a lot of the women wore hats or veils, proper genuflections, Holy Communion on the tongue while keeling where the altar rails used to be.
It’s a very ordinary parish out this way so I was doubly delighted because that would have saved me an expensive and time-consuming trip to Sydney if I wanted to attend a Latin Mass.
Rove
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jjwq2
Guest
I think it depends on where you are. We are still in the midst of a huge Spiritual battle to bring back the Traditions that have been lost. I tried relocating so that I could have the Traditional Latin Mass more frequently, but am not sure what is going on presently since our daily Masses are being canceled. The only thing I can say with certainty is that it is increasing because people fall in love when they see its beauty. It was growing in this area until this most recent event. Some people do not understand the importance of its preservation. Thanks be to God that He has made sure I have been taught to love tradition. He has always given me this desire and I am too young to have been raised with it. The longer I live, the more it seems things are turning around, but the Smoke of Satan continues to linger in the Church.
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123defiant
Guest
In the UK its still hard to get to a tridintine parish
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bkovacs
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In my area, not one bit. No one is interested at all, with the exception of myself that I know of. I have emailed pretty much every local church within a 25 mile radius and got answers from what is the TLM, no one understands Latin, like things the way they are, to not my cup of tea from the priests and pastors. But of course these same parishes do allot of ecumenical work with liberal mainstream protestant churches. So what do you expect. I now attend a local Orthodox church.
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otjm
Guest
The question could perhaps be phrased somewhat differently. The difficulty in answering the question is in determining what marking point everyone is starting from.
Is it being accepted more widely - more widely than what?
More widely than a year ago, as in more places offering it? Than two years ago?
More widely, meaning that the number of people attending now is greater than a year ago (meaning attending at a given Mass, as opposed to mroe Masses)? Two?
Out in Oregon, the silence is somewhat deafening. I am not aware of the EF being offered anywhere, althought that does not mean that it is not being offered; just that there is no press about it.
Is it being accepted more widely - more widely than what?
More widely than a year ago, as in more places offering it? Than two years ago?
More widely, meaning that the number of people attending now is greater than a year ago (meaning attending at a given Mass, as opposed to mroe Masses)? Two?
Out in Oregon, the silence is somewhat deafening. I am not aware of the EF being offered anywhere, althought that does not mean that it is not being offered; just that there is no press about it.
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mkingdomlvr
Guest
I agree. There are 2 TLM’s in central florida that I know of, and they are not advertised well. If you really hunt, you can find them, but our Bishop doesn’t seem to interested in them.
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Hyacinth_II
Guest
Yes, I know. Its the same for many places here in the US. My hope is that as more people become aware of it, and see it on EWTN and other places…they will start requesting it. I think that there are too few priests who know how to say the TLM. :bighanky:
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malphono
Guest
I made this remark in another thread in this forum, but it seems to be apropos to this one so I’ll repeat myself here:
Some folks are fortunate enough to have regular local access to the EF, but the vast majority (whether in the US or elsewhere) are not so blessed. They are, in a word, deprived of the opportunity to assist at the form of Mass they prefer. But of course they are not deprived of the various liturgical “oddities” that often go hand-in-hand with the OF. Given that, it is any wonder that those people rant about the OF? Is it any wonder many of them go to the SSPX (where available)?
The argument over the EF vs the OF could probably be quietly put to rest if only the EF were offered more generally. From my perspective, I’d go so far as to suggest that any church having more than one Sunday Mass be required to have one of them according to the EF. (It’s doubtful that many bishops – especially those who are notoriously obstructionist to Summorum Pontifiicum in the first place – would be keen on the idea, but no doubt a lot of faithful would be.) If it were to happen, it would serve several purposes, including to help defuse the “war of religion” that has been raging for the past 40-some years.
Some folks are fortunate enough to have regular local access to the EF, but the vast majority (whether in the US or elsewhere) are not so blessed. They are, in a word, deprived of the opportunity to assist at the form of Mass they prefer. But of course they are not deprived of the various liturgical “oddities” that often go hand-in-hand with the OF. Given that, it is any wonder that those people rant about the OF? Is it any wonder many of them go to the SSPX (where available)?
The argument over the EF vs the OF could probably be quietly put to rest if only the EF were offered more generally. From my perspective, I’d go so far as to suggest that any church having more than one Sunday Mass be required to have one of them according to the EF. (It’s doubtful that many bishops – especially those who are notoriously obstructionist to Summorum Pontifiicum in the first place – would be keen on the idea, but no doubt a lot of faithful would be.) If it were to happen, it would serve several purposes, including to help defuse the “war of religion” that has been raging for the past 40-some years.
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Tartini
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That is absolutely the most logical and sound statement that I have come across on this site for quite awhile. My parish offers both, and has no problem filling either Masses, so it seems to work in practice, if given the chance.
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Alindawyl
Guest
We’re lucky in San Antonio. The Latin Mass was offered here even before Summorum Pontificum thanks to our previous archbishop, Patrick Flores. Our current bishop, Archbishop Gomez, explicity renewed his support for the Latin Mass after his installation. Even with that support, finding priests who know how to do it has always been a problem.
We used to have two parishes which offered the Latin Mass: St. Pius X and Holy Name. But the priests from Holy Name who knew the Latin Mass were recently transferred elsewhere. Now we’re down to the two or three priests who say the Latin Mass at St. Pius X.
My jaw literally dropped the first time I walked into St. Pius X and saw an intact communion rail
I’d love to attend regularly but can’t in good conscience abandon my current parish. Especially not with a priest who needs all the backing he can get for publicly taking the right stand on so many things. A family left the parish last year over one of his homilies when he dared to talk about the evil of abortion. The next week he added a lengthy letter to the bulletin that basically stated he would not deviate from Church teaching even if the the entire congregation walked out on him. How could I turn my back on that? I make it a point after Mass to publicly and vocally thank him for his homily whenever he covers a controversial topic, so that he gets at least one bit of positive feedback immediately.
Although I feel a need to stay with my normal parish, there’s always Saturday morning if I must experience the Mass in Latin. In addition to the noon Mass on Sunday at St. Pius X, they offer the Latin Mass on Wednesday and Saturday mornings.
We used to have two parishes which offered the Latin Mass: St. Pius X and Holy Name. But the priests from Holy Name who knew the Latin Mass were recently transferred elsewhere. Now we’re down to the two or three priests who say the Latin Mass at St. Pius X.
My jaw literally dropped the first time I walked into St. Pius X and saw an intact communion rail
I’d love to attend regularly but can’t in good conscience abandon my current parish. Especially not with a priest who needs all the backing he can get for publicly taking the right stand on so many things. A family left the parish last year over one of his homilies when he dared to talk about the evil of abortion. The next week he added a lengthy letter to the bulletin that basically stated he would not deviate from Church teaching even if the the entire congregation walked out on him. How could I turn my back on that? I make it a point after Mass to publicly and vocally thank him for his homily whenever he covers a controversial topic, so that he gets at least one bit of positive feedback immediately.
Although I feel a need to stay with my normal parish, there’s always Saturday morning if I must experience the Mass in Latin. In addition to the noon Mass on Sunday at St. Pius X, they offer the Latin Mass on Wednesday and Saturday mornings.
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Hyacinth_II
Guest
I agree with you whole heartedly… and I have made similar statements… perhaps on different forums. I can’t remember, I’ve been on so many where these issues arise. It is the logical solution…and the solution to bringing reverence back into our liturgy. I hope our Holy Father hears us…as we cry. I think he does.
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otjm
Guest
However, part of the assumption is that there is a large contingent of people who want to the the EF and who are being thwarted. SP had some specifics as to what was necessary in order to have the EF established as a regular public Mass in a parish; I ahve yet to hear (and I may have missed it) if Rome has made any move to define further what size of stable group is required. Numbers have been bantered all over, but I suspect that 5 or 10 in a parish is not what B16 intended when he put SP together. Additionally, there is the issue of priests trained in the rubrics, and together it makes a certain “Catch 22” scenario.
I do not doubt that there are bishops who have thwarted the expansion of the EF. On the other hand, I have heard very little about the exisiting EF Masses drawing crowds so large that it would encourage expansion. I suspect that the result is going to be somewhere around the results of “we have achieved equilibrium” response (my recollection is that it was to be reviewed in 3 years), with an approach that while it has been provided (in some areas certainly more freely than in others), there has been little groundswell to increase it.
It would seem, where bishops have encouraged it, that these areas would be the best focus of how much demand is being generated. Do you know of any studies or research which shows increased demand/request where it has been openly provided, and if so, how much?
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thunderballs75
Guest
I know how you feel. But you couldn’t find a local Eastern Catholic parish or at least one reverent Mass instead?
I know how you feel though. 2 blocks away from my school is an Eastern Orthodox parish, which celebrates so beautifully according to all of the traditions of the Church. I’ve contemplated converting many times. But I don’t think that I will.I live in an extremely liberal diocese. Nobody here wants to see it, except for the minority of traditionalists. However, I have convinced my priest to give us a shot. So has another one in one of the main churches about 60 miles away, and that parish is fairly liberal. Now our diocese is huge, so it’s not as good as it sounds. But this would bring it up to 5 Latin Masses. We’ll both be starting things up around September. So if it works out, we would finally have 2 Latin Masses in places that aren’t just secluded and hidden from society.
So although it is very discouraged, it can still be done. And it is starting to happen a little bit here due to mainly the work of just a few individuals and the prayers of many.
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malphono
Guest
I frankly haven’t heard of very many places where the EF is so “openly provided” that any such “study” would show anything.
The existing “formula” is not going to show much of anything (“groundswell” or whatever) either since even when it is available, the EF is often treated as some sort of “freak” that is there only for the benefit of a handful of senior citizens and/or a bunch of “rad trads” who spurn the “spirit of Vatican II.” Add to that the distances and time that are often involved for people to attend it. But even in the current climate, I have seen interestingly large numbers of young people in attendance, and many of the faces have become familiar. I take that as a good sign.
The lack of training in the EF among the clergy can be very easily remedied, (of course the bulk of them are OF people to the core and would likely complain, but that’s too bad), if the bishops were, as a group, at all interested in doing so.
In the end, I stand by my original suggestion: put the EF in place nearly everywhere, provide the chatechesis (in the bulletin, perhaps before (or even during as part of the homily) the liturgy itself. It should not have to be a burden on people to find the EF. They should not have to travel (in many cases an hour or more) to be able to assist at their preferred form of the Roman liturgy.
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Hyacinth_II
Guest
Just how do you propose that people come to know about the TLM, love it, understand it, and respect it… if they have NO ACCESS to it? Your whole argument fails to be logical.
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thunderballs75
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While I would love the EF in place everywhere, the Cardinal in charge of Ecclesia Dei said that as little as 5 people could be a stable group.
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brotherhrolf
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I have sung in a cathedral choir for 20 years. We have a choir that regularly chants and sings motets in Latin. My bishop merely “acknowledged” the Motu Proprio. I have no doubt in my mind that if my cathedral parish would offer a High Mass (Missa Cantata) with choir, it would be well attended. We offer a reverent OF and the number of parishoners joining the cathedral parish continues to grow even though we are a downtown parish. Most of our parishoners are from parishes in the diocese who are fleeing what is going on in their local parish.
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