Is the Traditional Latin Mass getting more widely accepted?

[otjm]

Just how do you propose that people come to know about the TLM, love it, understand it, and respect it… if they have NO ACCESS to it? Your whole argument fails to be logical.

I don’t think the argument is lacking in logic. I am not the one making statements that there is a huge number of people wanting the EF. I am simply standing on the sidelines watching.

There are just short of 19,000 parishes in the US. That is a huge number. There is a process whereby people who want the EF can apply for it; if they are denied there is a process of appeal. I have heard precious little about whether there have been many appeals (and that is not to say that there have or have not been; I am simply saying I have not heard), and I am interested in whether or not there has been any use of the process that SP put into place.

Some people who love the EF seem to be of the opinion that if it were just made available, most people would choose it. You are right that there needs to be catechesis on the matter; but again, I am not the one stating that there are a huge number of people who want it. And frankly (and my experience is limited) I am not seeing a huge number.

Just looking at this thread, I will agree with the premise that there are few parishes that are offering it. But I am not hearing anywhere that the parishes that are offering it are being overwhelmed with people seeking to attend. The anwer seems to be “Well, they are so hidden, so out of the way…” and I don’t buy that. Maybe, if they were in rural areas, than might be an issue. But if it is in a city of any size, there will be multiple parishes that should (if the “huge number of people” is true) want to go to it, and the Masses should be SRO.

I think, from my observations, that the issue that is most compelling to most people is the vernacular. We had, for a period of time, a Mass, OF, in Latin with a schola that was world class. The Mass was on Saturday evening in a parish in Portland that was easy to reach. I never went there when the Church was more than maybe 3/4 full. It was not hidden; anyone who wanted to come was most welcome, and people simply did not go there from other parishes. There are about 35 parishes in Portland, give or take one or two; and while that Mass was well attended for that parish, it most definitely was not an overwhelming response to a Latin Mass. I repeatedly took RCIA members there, and the response was always very positive among at least some, if not most of them, and to the best of my knowledge, not one of them ever went back.

I am not here to flame anyone, or to get into arguments about the EF. It should be available to those who wish it, assuming that it can be accomodated (and I speak only to the guidelines of SP itself, and the Pope’s accompanying letter). But I am very hesitant to say that the attraction to it is anywhere near as large, in numbers of people wanting it, as is often proposed. Then, again, there may be a groundswell that I simply have not seen. Again, I in no way intend to question anyone’s enthusiasm for the EF. But that enthusiasm doesn’t seem to be carrying over to others very much from anything I have seen.

Is it a “Catch 22”? I have no doubt that to some extent it is; you are (again) correct about the issue of catechesis. However, the EF simply is not going to be said in every parish, or even every other parish, if there is a very low response to those that are said. Seminaries are not going to commit time, money and effort to training many priests to say the EF if there is very little interest shown in the ones that are curretnly being said, and that, too is a bit of “Catch 22”.

 

[otjm]

I frankly haven’t heard of very many places where the EF is so “openly provided” that any such “study” would show anything.

The existing “formula” is not going to show much of anything (“groundswell” or whatever) either since even when it is available, the EF is often treated as some sort of “freak” that is there only for the benefit of a handful of senior citizens and/or a bunch of “rad trads” who spurn the “spirit of Vatican II.” Add to that the distances and time that are often involved for people to attend it. But even in the current climate, I have seen interestingly large numbers of young people in attendance, and many of the faces have become familiar. I take that as a good sign.

The lack of training in the EF among the clergy can be very easily remedied, (of course the bulk of them are OF people to the core and would likely complain, but that’s too bad), if the bishops were, as a group, at all interested in doing so.

In the end, I stand by my original suggestion: put the EF in place nearly everywhere, provide the chatechesis (in the bulletin, perhaps before (or even during as part of the homily) the liturgy itself. It should not have to be a burden on people to find the EF. They should not have to travel (in many cases an hour or more) to be able to assist at their preferred form of the Roman liturgy.

Well, aside from the practical aspects of not having priests who are trained to say it, I agree that it would settle to what degree there is an interest in it.

 

[Louie1983]

I think it’s definately starting to become accepted and i believe this current pope is encouraging it.

Let’s have a look at some important moves his made:

• He has allowed broader use of the tridentine mass, the process to gain permission to say a tridentine mass is not as strict anymore.
• He lifted the excommunications on the 4 bishops of the sspx although it has been explained that they are not yet in full communion iwht the church as there are a number of theological issues to be discussed. Either way, it is a step towards reconciliation.

Now there are two ways IMHO that you can look at this:

1, Pope Benedict XI is favourable towards the tridentine rite and wants to see a return towards the traditional mass. or;

2, Pope Benedict XI is trying to unite the church again, So the church can be truly united both with the traditionalists and the novus ordo supporters. Possibly a case of getting our own house in order before asking anyone to come in…i.e orthodox to re-unite with rome, protestants etc.

I think either way it can only be a good thing given the tridentine mass was and still is if you look at it from a timeline perspective the dominant mass of the catholic church. The last 50 years has been dominated by the novus ordo but in the churches history the tridentine mass clearly is dominant.

I definately think there is a concentrated effort from church officials and lay people to grow the use of the tridentine rite throughout the world, it will be interesting to see in 20-30,40 or 50 years time how much it does grow and the status of the novus ordo.

Given the situation now where both forms are acceptable, i think it is in god’s hands in deciding the direction which the church will go.

God bless.

 

[excelsus]

My TLM has been packed front pew to back pew for the 2 times I have been there (and probably the 3rd this Sunday, and the 4th next, and 5th next, and 6th next…) Basically, a lot of people come to it. In fact, it’s the most filled church I have ever seen.

 

[Tsuwano]

Not in my neck of the woods, as far as I can tell.

 

[JustaServant]

What do you think, based on your observations in your given area?

My area is WV, and there are few Catholic Churches here, let alone TLM. But when I attended St. Boniface in Pittsburgh I was struck by the fact that it was PACKED. And not with people 50+, but with many young people.
Personally, I think when the floodgates are open to the TLM, it will spread like wildfire.

 

[John_Grudzien]

Not in Michigan, tho it is sparsely offered in the metro Detroit area at odd times and not at easy Sunday commutes for ones such as I who are obliged to work most Sundays. My parish does offer a fairly reverent OF Mass(still has kneelers and the tabernacle is still on the much cut down main altar), but people still insist on holding and shaking hands at the normal places nowadays and singing those insufferable whiney songs from the OCP hymnbook.
I have talked to my pastor about it, and tho he seems sympathetic to the EF, he isn’t trained in it and would most probably have to make some expensive restorations to the main altar to make it serviceable for an EF Mass so the prospects are not good in Livonia, MI.

 

[jam070406]

Not in Michigan, tho it is sparsely offered in the metro Detroit area at odd times and not at easy Sunday commutes for ones such as I who are obliged to work most Sundays. My parish does offer a fairly reverent OF Mass(still has kneelers and the tabernacle is still on the much cut down main altar), but people still insist on holding and shaking hands at the normal places nowadays and singing those insufferable whiney songs from the OCP hymnbook.
I have talked to my pastor about it, and tho he seems sympathetic to the EF, he isn’t trained in it and would most probably have to make some expensive restorations to the main altar to make it serviceable for an EF Mass so the prospects are not good in Livonia, MI.

John,
I noticed there is an EF at St. Stephen’s in New Boston. Is that far from you?

 

[bkovacs]

None of these parishes offer it, or are interested in it.
archphila.org/parishes/bucksa.htm

So I’m going here now. 11 miles away.
st-philip.net/

They offer both Vespers, Matins, and the Divine Liturgy, unlike most Eastern Catholic Churches, which pretty much only offer the Divine Liturgy and skip Matins and Vesper services, so like the NO Roman Rite parishes they can fulfill their Sunday obligation by going to the Divine Liturgy on Saturday nights. I call that Latinization and I like going to Vespers on Saturday night!.

I pretty much consider myself Eastern Orthodox now.

 

[John_Grudzien]

Yes, I am aware of St. Stephen’s in New Baltimore, but as I said, I work most Sundays and if I recall correctly, the EF is only offered in a mid to late afternoon timeframe which is not possible for me. What I pray for is a parish that would offer the EF if not daily (morning, before work), then at least earlier on Sundays(again, before I must give my due to Caesar).
Thanx,
J.G.

 

[Hyacinth_II]

My area is WV, and there are few Catholic Churches here, let alone TLM. But when I attended St. Boniface in Pittsburgh I was struck by the fact that it was PACKED. And not with people 50+, but with many young people.
Personally, I think when the floodgates are open to the TLM, it will spread like wildfire.

I hope our Holy Father is tuned into the sadness that has been expressed on this thread. Surely, we are but a small sampling of the Catholics around the world who either have little or no access to the traditional Mass because it has not been made available in our parishes. Many hearts are wounded, I think. I am uplifted to hear that where the TLM has been offered, it has had great success and even young people are filling the pews. This parish should be an example. The bishop should be applauded for ministering to his flock. God bless you all.

 

[Tsuwano]

I hope our Holy Father is tuned into the sadness that has been expressed on this thread. Surely, we are but a small sampling of the Catholics around the world who either have little or no access to the traditional Mass because it has not been made available in our parishes. Many hearts are wounded, I think. I am uplifted to hear that where the TLM has been offered, it has had great success and even young people are filling the pews. This parish should be an example. The bishop should be applauded for ministering to his flock. God bless you all.

Just to make things clear from my perspective, I was not expressing sadness in my short post. I have no desire to attend a traditional Latin mass and am happy with the Novus Ordo masses I do attend. I feel that a traditional mass should be available for those who would like to attend one, but I do not see the TLM as a replacement for the Novus Ordo. I see it as an extension of the Church’s ministry to her flock. I also applaud any bishop who listens attentively to his people.

 

[Hyacinth_II]

Just to make things clear from my perspective, I was not expressing sadness in my short post. I have no desire to attend a traditional Latin mass and am happy with the Novus Ordo masses I do attend. I feel that a traditional mass should be available for those who would like to attend one, but I do not see the TLM as a replacement for the Novus Ordo. I see it as an extension of the Church’s ministry to her flock. I also applaud any bishop who listens attentively to his people.

I didn’t say that everyone was sad, but there are a lot of people who have not have their needs met. Many, have to travel a long distance to attend the Mass of their choice, or they don’t get to at all. Or, they don’t attend at all…we probably don’t even hear from them…they just feel that the Church left them. There are a number of people on this thread, and on other threads that have expressed sadness that the TLM is still difficult to find and to attend on a regular basis. I am happy that you enjoy the NO. To me, it is rushed, leaves a lot out, and is disrespectful to Jesus because we are not allowed to kneel for communion. I don’t even want to tell you what I think about communion in the hand and being distributed by lay people. My heart breaks.

I also see the TLM as being one version of the Latin Rite offered at every parish. I think this is necessary so that the needs of all are met. It is sad that it is still not being offered as widely as it should be. I think many bishops are dragging their feet on this, because the Holy Father told them to offer both versions. To me, they are not rushing to obedience any better than the SSPX is ignoring that they need to offer the NO.

 

[Tsuwano]

I didn’t say that everyone was sad, but there are a lot of people who have not have their needs met. Many, have to travel a long distance to attend the Mass of their choice, or they don’t get to at all. Or, they don’t attend at all…we probably don’t even hear from them…they just feel that the Church left them. There are a number of people on this thread, and on other threads that have expressed sadness that the TLM is still difficult to find and to attend on a regular basis. I am happy that you enjoy the NO. To me, it is rushed, leaves a lot out, and is disrespectful to Jesus because we are not allowed to kneel for communion. I don’t even want to tell you what I think about communion in the hand and being distributed by lay people. My heart breaks.

I agree with some of your post. I hope you have found a mass you are comfortable attending and that it isn’t too distant from your home.

 

[jeanannemarie]

Dear Hyacinth II, I am sad! My bishop never mentions it. My priest calls it a dinosaur. I know better than to bring it up. Our parish is barely staying open. This is not a very Catholic area where I live. My heart yearns for it!

 

[Hyacinth_II]

Dear Hyacinth II, I am sad! My bishop never mentions it. My priest calls it a dinosaur. I know better than to bring it up. Our parish is barely staying open. This is not a very Catholic area where I live. My heart yearns for it!

Contact your bishop. That is all you can do, I think. From what I understand your bishop is required to provide the Latin Mass if there is enough people interested in it. I think that even if only 5 people request, he must find some way to provide it. I am about to do that here, where I live. There is only a TLM on the First Friday of the Month…in the evening. Never on a Sunday anywhere. If I want one, I have to go to the SSPX, which I have not done yet, but may decide to do. I have no alternative. God bless you.

I think it is time that we let our bishops know that we want our traditional Mass offered. If we don’t do that, it may slip away forever. If no one tells him, he will continue in his misconception that “no one” wants it. I think we should all write to our bishops letting them know our desire to have the TLM if it is not offered. Things won’t change until the bishops are aware that they need to change.

 

[Tartini]

Contact your bishop. That is all you can do, I think. From what I understand your bishop is required to provide the Latin Mass if there is enough people interested in it. I think that even if only 5 people request, he must find some way to provide it. I am about to do that here, where I live. There is only a TLM on the First Friday of the Month…in the evening. Never on a Sunday anywhere. If I want one, I have to go to the SSPX, which I have not done yet, but may decide to do. I have no alternative. God bless you.

I think it is time that we let our bishops know that we want our traditional Mass offered. If we don’t do that, it may slip away forever. If no one tells him, he will continue in his misconception that “no one” wants it. I think we should all write to our bishops letting them know our desire to have the TLM if it is not offered. Things won’t change until the bishops are aware that they need to change.

 

[Tartini]

Contact your bishop. That is all you can do, I think. From what I understand your bishop is required to provide the Latin Mass if there is enough people interested in it. I think that even if only 5 people request, he must find some way to provide it. I am about to do that here, where I live. There is only a TLM on the First Friday of the Month…in the evening. Never on a Sunday anywhere. If I want one, I have to go to the SSPX, which I have not done yet, but may decide to do. I have no alternative. God bless you.

I think it is time that we let our bishops know that we want our traditional Mass offered. If we don’t do that, it may slip away forever. If no one tells him, he will continue in his misconception that “no one” wants it. I think we should all write to our bishops letting them know our desire to have the TLM if it is not offered. Things won’t change until the bishops are aware that they need to change.

There have been some great responses to this thread. The above advice is probabally the best advice we have, and I have a notion that it will be up to us to try, but ultimately up to the higher authorities to act on the requests of the faithful, within reason and scope of faith. I have always subscribed to the philosophy that anything worth saving is worth working for without wavering in the Faith. We must always remeber that we are very lucky to be able to even attend Holy Mass, no matter if it is in the EF or OF form. There are good and bad elements in everything in the world, and we can easily fall into grave errors of presumption that all is alright as long as it is going “our way”.

I can understand both sides of the argument, as we live in a society that is rather “compacted” when it comes to just about everything. I am saddened at the fact that this is a reality, but one can only do so much. That does not mean that one must blindly accept it, but rather consider it another cross to bear for Our Lord.

Prayer and patience will prove to be the key to a wider establishment of the Traditional Latin Mass. Modernist Catholicism can only go so far before it tends to find itself dancing in the dark with protestantism. I pray that this will never be the case, but the shift of winds for the past 40 years have seemingly made the line disturbingly vague as to what is what. Logic has seemingly taken a proverbial back seat to modern thought, but one can rest assured that it is still directing the “driver” as to where to go and how to get there. It just may take a little longer than expected.

Dominus Vobiscum.

 

[Hyacinth_II]

Contact your bishop. That is all you can do, I think. From what I understand your bishop is required to provide the Latin Mass if there is enough people interested in it. I think that even if only 5 people request, he must find some way to provide it.

.

Well, I need to put in a correction. I guess what I read may not be correct. It may by up to the bishop to decide based on the priests that he has (do they know how to do the TLM) and on the public desire. He can decide if there is a need. A polite note inquiring why the TLM is not offered may be a better approach.

 

[malphono]

Well, I need to put in a correction. I guess what I read may not be correct. It may by up to the bishop to decide based on the priests that he has (do they know how to do the TLM) and on the public desire. He can decide if there is a need. A polite note inquiring why the TLM is not offered may be a better approach.

Summorum Pontificum abrogated the bizarre notion of an “indult” so there is technically no need to beg a bishop for access to the EF. Any priest who is familiar with the EF is free to offer it under the terms of SP that were previously cited. Of course that doesn’t stop those bishops who are terminally obstructionist from imposing hurdles that are often insurmountable, but those cases can be dealt with through Rome.

The other excuse that the obstructionist bishops often use is “oh, we don’t have priests who are versed in the EF” and that one is a different matter: it really behooves the bishop to ensure that priests are made familiar with the EF. There are instructional videos galore available, plus the Norbertines and Canons of St John Cantius (among others) periodically offer instruction.

A young curate whom I know actually taught himself, and offered the EF privately prior to SP. The local Ordinary (now retired, thankfully) was one of the obstructionist bishops who considered the “indults” for the public offering of the EF like pieces of gold, and doled them out like Midas in his counting house. So in the pre-SP days, our the curate would periodically publicly offer the OF in its “reform of the reform” mode, meaning ad orientem, in Latin, etc. He was unfettered by SP, and the EF is freely offered publicly. No bishop involved.