Is the Traditional Latin Mass getting more widely accepted?

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In the Diocese of Dallas, before the SP there was an FSSP Latin Mass community that had daily masses in one church and Sunday masses in another. Out in a rural part of the diocese there was a priest who offered a Latin Novus Ordo mass as well.

Today, the situation is exactly the same. The chapel where the FSSP Priest offered Sunday Mass is packed to the rafters every day, and they are now getting their own parish, which is great! however, there have been no other parishes that have started offering the Mass in the EF, nor any one-time-only masses that I’m aware of.

So, I can’t say that the Motu Proprio made any difference here.
 
In the Diocese of Dallas, before the SP there was an FSSP Latin Mass community that had daily masses in one church and Sunday masses in another. Out in a rural part of the diocese there was a priest who offered a Latin Novus Ordo mass as well.

Today, the situation is exactly the same. The chapel where the FSSP Priest offered Sunday Mass is packed to the rafters every day, and they are now getting their own parish, which is great! however, there have been no other parishes that have started offering the Mass in the EF, nor any one-time-only masses that I’m aware of.

So, I can’t say that the Motu Proprio made any difference here.
Where in Dallas will the new parish be located?
 
In the Diocese of Dallas, before the SP there was an FSSP Latin Mass community that had daily masses in one church and Sunday masses in another. Out in a rural part of the diocese there was a priest who offered a Latin Novus Ordo mass as well.

Today, the situation is exactly the same. The chapel where the FSSP Priest offered Sunday Mass is packed to the rafters every day, and they are now getting their own parish, which is great! however, there have been no other parishes that have started offering the Mass in the EF, nor any one-time-only masses that I’m aware of.

So, I can’t say that the Motu Proprio made any difference here.
A question comes to mind here: did people ask their pastors for the EF?
(a) If so, what reason was given for the refusal? The reason matters because it signals to whom the appeal should go.
(b) If not, why not? The EF doesn’t usually spring up all by its lonesome. While there are some exceptions, it’s rare that a pastor will float the idea himself. In general, people have to ask.
 
We’ve got the TLM at 12 churches in the Archdiocese of Chicago now, and I hope to see it in many more in the near future. I’m sorry to say I’ve only been to it at St John Cantius, St Thomas More and The Institute of Christ the King, but I plan to make the rounds to show my support. I believe it will continue to grow steadily.
 
A question comes to mind here: did people ask their pastors for the EF?
(a) If so, what reason was given for the refusal? The reason matters because it signals to whom the appeal should go.
(b) If not, why not? The EF doesn’t usually spring up all by its lonesome. While there are some exceptions, it’s rare that a pastor will float the idea himself. In general, people have to ask.
Obviously, I can’t answer those questions. I can only speak for myself and say it was requested and politely turned down.

In a Diocese of over a million, I find it hard to believe that the TLM is the pretty girl at the dance who sits alone all night because everyone’s afraid to ask her out. More likely is that there’s not a huge demand for it. This area has several Eastern Catholic Churches, under the authority of their own Eparchs, of course. They have dedicated parishioners, but you can’t say they are growing or shrinking. They definitely have only a niche appeal. I see the EF as falling into the same category.

it’s a shame, but it’s true. I’d love to attend the EF more often than I currently can, but we’re blessed that there’s one here to attend at all. (I enjoy attending the Byz Cath services on occasion, and I feel the same way about them as well).
 
Someplace in Irving. I’m going to the Mass tomorrow so if there’s any more info I’ll post it.
GREAT! Irving, is doable for my DH and I, we live in Cooke County. I look forward to any info you can supply…thanks.
 
GREAT! Irving, is doable for my DH and I, we live in Cooke County. I look forward to any info you can supply…thanks.
Well, they didn’t have anything about it in the bulletin today. I emailed the new Priest that just moved to Dallas about it and I’ll report back what he says. It sounds like the purchase is pending, so I don’t know when they’ll be in the new place.
 
Well, they didn’t have anything about it in the bulletin today. I emailed the new Priest that just moved to Dallas about it and I’ll report back what he says. It sounds like the purchase is pending, so I don’t know when they’ll be in the new place.
Thanks so much for all your efforts!
 
Well, they didn’t have anything about it in the bulletin today. I emailed the new Priest that just moved to Dallas about it and I’ll report back what he says. It sounds like the purchase is pending, so I don’t know when they’ll be in the new place.
Just saw this.

Ok, who do we need to contact to show interest? I’ve been chatting with PassthePeace1 (hey there, girl! 👋) about more traditional parishes here in the DFW area. (I even started a thread on the NO mass I went to this evening. :() Perhaps the three of us and some others can start a petition or get a notice put in our local bulletins.

I like my current parish. It’s pretty far but considering what I saw tonight at what is technically “my” local parish, I do NOT mind the drive to it.
 
=Tartini;5479805]What do you think, based on your observations in your given area?
If it is? It is because more people are being exposed to it.

I suspect what we are seeing is folks who are more “Traditional,” more in tune with our Pope and Magistrium seeking more actively, alternatives to the Novus Ordo Mass.

It is signifiant how difficult is is for many to even find a Latin Mass. I live in central Florida, and only one Church in Orlando offers the Extrodinary Form, and I’m over sisty miles one way from this church.

Dispite our Popes desire and authorization for the LM, one in this area is seeing very few opportunities to participate.

I spoke to our Pastor who said when he did an informal poll for interest in the LM, only two people * responded favorably. What I find most interesting, and extremely sad about this, is that our’s is an aged parish, with a majority of parishioners who are old enough to remember the LM.

The Horozional, we are thee church, as good as priest, ect. posion has taken hold and we have yet to find the “cure.” The laity seem unwilling to return to the priest, ALL priestly functions. Many are really into this equality of service.

May Christ the Divine Physican do so soon.*
 
If it is? It is because more people are being exposed to it.

I suspect what we are seeing is folks who are more “Traditional,” more in tune with our Pope and Magistrium seeking more actively, alternatives to the Novus Ordo Mass.

It is signifiant how difficult is is for many to even find a Latin Mass. I live in central Florida, and only one Church in Orlando offers the Extrodinary Form, and I’m over sisty miles one way from this church.

Dispite our Popes desire and authorization for the LM, one in this area is seeing very few opportunities to participate.

I spoke to our Pastor who said when he did an informal poll for interest in the LM, only two people * responded favorably. What I find most interesting, and extremely sad about this, is that our’s is an aged parish, with a majority of parishioners who are old enough to remember the LM.

The Horozional, we are thee church, as good as priest, ect. posion has taken hold and we have yet to find the “cure.” The laity seem unwilling to return to the priest, ALL priestly functions. Many are really into this equality of service.

May Christ the Divine Physican do so soon.*

I live in Central Florida too, and I was really disappointed with the lack of access to an EF here. Where I lived in NJ, there were 2 that were within 30 minutes of my house. They were also scheduled at “normal” Mass times on Sunday AM, where here the only one is at 6pm on Sunday night. Depending on how far away you are, that’s not a great option for a work/school night.
 
It is signifiant how difficult is is for many to even find a Latin Mass. I live in central Florida, and only one Church in Orlando offers the Extrodinary Form, and I’m over sisty miles one way from this church.

Dispite our Popes desire and authorization for the LM, one in this area is seeing very few opportunities to participate.

I spoke to our Pastor who said when he did an informal poll for interest in the LM, only two people * responded favorably. What I find most interesting, and extremely sad about this, is that our’s is an aged parish, with a majority of parishioners who are old enough to remember the LM.*

A suggestion if I may: since the pastor is evidently not strongly supportive of the EF, you might consider asking him to include an OF done according to the “reform of the reform” (ad orientem, in Latin, etc) in the schedule. No, of course it’s not the same as the EF, but it might be a good “first step” so-to-speak. If it works out, it might then be possible to make a stronger case for the EF.
 
I am glad to see such a great mutual support here on this matter.

PJM :That is a superb idea…By having the OF “ad orientum” it would help to introduce the Latin, which often seems to be the main reason that some don’t favour it as much as they should. One will not become an ecclastical latin expert overnight, but it can be quickly learned in about a year (with concentrated effort). I have found that the parish will ultimately remember the subject matter of the Epistle and Gospel much better as they follow along in the Missal. This is a rather psychological matter when this happens, but it is like reading a libretto in an opera and understanding the action on stage, even though it is not in the native toungue. It is just a matter of application and practice.

In my experiences, I often see many young persons who really enjoy the latin, and with the way they communicate, I would not be suprised if they start speaking it on the street to one another or use it in their texting practices!

The solution to a rather “new” problem seems very logical: Communicate to your Bishops and to Rome as to what you desire and support your priestly formation seminaries that promote the TLM. Also educate and encourage the young and they will ultimately carry on the traditions. It will take time, but I am greatly confident that a great resurgence will continue to manifest itself, and that the Church will get back on track. By all sense of logic and reason, and for the sake of the survival of all that we hold sacred, the traditional Latin Mass will be available in every parish in the world within the next 10 years, possibly less.
 
The solution to a rather “new” problem seems very logical: Communicate to your Bishops and to Rome as to what you desire and support your priestly formation seminaries that promote the TLM. Also educate and encourage the young and they will ultimately carry on the traditions. It will take time, but I am greatly confident that a great resurgence will continue to manifest itself, and that the Church will get back on track. By all sense of logic and reason, and for the sake of the survival of all that we hold sacred, the traditional Latin Mass will be available in every parish in the world within the next 10 years, possibly less.
Let’s talk reality here for a minute. Post 43 by Seamus notes that there are 12 Masses on a weekend in the Archdiocese of Chicago. There are, according to the Archdiocese, 357 parishes out of which twelve parishes have the EF. That puts the statistics at 3.4% of all parishes with the EF.

I don’t know the politics of the diocese; I do know that Cardinal George has had his hands full with a few over the top parishes and priests (and I suspect there are more priests of a like mind and practice than the few that have made the news, but I certainly have no proof). In any event, I have my doubts that the Cardinal could be called a liberal. I would also assume, short of a showing otherwise, that the Cardinal has not been an obstructionist in the issue.

There is no question that one of the issues concerning the availability of the EF is going to be the number of priests capable of saying it. However, at 3.4% of all parishes in the Chicago archdiocese having the EF, in one’s wildest dreams we are not going to see all parishes having an EF in 10 years. We are not ordaining enough priests in raw numbers to approach that.

The very real world issue is going to be a combination of the tota number of priests we have, and the number of priests whoe are trained in the EF. Even assuming that we could get all priests trained, there are limiting factors by the sizes of parishes, the number of Masses a priest may say, and the number of people who desire the EF. Even Pope Benedict in his letter accompanying the SP did not see it becoming wide spread, let alone in all parishes.
 
Sounds like a dismal reality, to be sure. I can relate to the numbers, sad as they are…

Perhaps a miracle** is** in order.

I hope I am not going off on a tangent here; If the priest is not able to celebrate the EF, what are they teaching in the seminaries in general? I always thought that they were required to know it, and are usually trained in university in the Latin. Perhaps someone could clarify this point for me?
 
Sounds like a dismal reality, to be sure. I can relate to the numbers, sad as they are…

Perhaps a miracle** is** in order.

I hope I am not going off on a tangent here; If the priest is not able to celebrate the EF, what are they teaching in the seminaries in general? I always thought that they were required to know it, and are usually trained in university in the Latin. Perhaps someone could clarify this point for me?
Undergraduates are required to have either a degree in Philosophy, or if they have a degree already, have two years of philosophy (I don’t think they get a second degree) in this ARchdiocese (Oregon). As to Latin, I do not know if it is required, but years ago - I think it was in the 80’s, Pope John Paul 2 jokingly chided bishops for their lack of use of Latin.

As to what they learn in theology, they learn theology, and as part of their training to be a priest, they learn the rubrics of the OF. As it is the OF, and it is universally celebrated in the Roman rite, and is the Mass form that the vast, vast majority of Masses are said in, that is what they learn.

To a certain extent, the whole situation is a Catch 22. Most bishops are not out promoting it (a few have, as noted in the thread herein). Whether it is presumed the very few want it, or whether there has been surveys done, formally or informally, or whether they are simply not hearing from any significant number of people requesting it, or they lack priests trained in it, there isn’t much impetus for them to go out and solve a problem when they see no problem.

Keep in mind also that one does not have to be anti-Vatican 2, or anti-OF, or anti-vernacular in general to want the EF. However, there have been a small but very vocal group that has pushed very hard, and pushed in a way that has an ecclesiology that is at odds with the Church and specifically the Roman rite. It somewhat gets back to the old phrase about the cat: a cat sits on a hot stove, and the cat doesn’t sit on a hot stove again; and a smart cat doesn’t sit on a cold stove. It is easy to categorize bishops as liberal obstructionists, and some without any doubt whatsoever are or have been. However, any bishop who gets attacked by a small group whose position is at the fringes is only going to be attacked about so often, and then the results are going to come in and they will (too often) brand a group of people as fringe when perhaps only a few are. In short, a rotten apple or two has infected the barrel.

To put it another way: there are not all that many Catholics who ascribe to the articles and philosphy that has, for example, been expressed in the Remnant on more than one occasion; but it only takes a small group to paint a much broader group with a brush that is undeserving.

I served in Viet Nam. The vast majority of troups who rotated through that war zone did so very honorably; but it only took one My Lai to paint the whole lot as baby killers. They simply weren’t, but few of the public took the time to think; the public simply reacted.

Let’s try it another way. Chicago Archdiocese has 1712 Masses said on a weekend. Out of that there are 12 Masses said in the EF; the rest are said on the OF.

Assuming that both the EF and the OF average 600 people per Mass, that means that 7200 out of 1,369,600 people are attending the EF, or about 0.525% (just a hair over 1/2 percent) of the people attending a Mass are attending the EF. Take that perspective, and how many priests are going to be trained in the EF? How much money will the bishop expend to cover that? Assume for the moment that the EF went up in attendance 500% (6 times as many); there would now be 3.15%+ attending the EF.

Run the numbers differently: assume there is only an average attendance of 400 per Mass, but 800 per Mass at the EF (12 of them). That is 684800 people attending Mass; 9600 at the EF, for a 1.4% total. I suspect that both numbers a skewed - average attendance too low in this scenario, and probably not 800 per Mass at the EF. But that gives a bit of perspective.

Note: in no way do I intend to convey any thought that the EF should not be made available to those who desire it. But even in the wildest of sceanrios, it appears that the majority, even the large majority will want the OF for quite some time into the future.
 
To a certain extent, the whole situation is a Catch 22. Most bishops are not out promoting it (a few have, as noted in the thread herein). Whether it is presumed the very few want it, or whether there has been surveys done, formally or informally, or whether they are simply not hearing from any significant number of people requesting it, or they lack priests trained in it, there isn’t much impetus for them to go out and solve a problem when they see no problem.
Indeed most bishops are “not out promoting” the EF, mostly likely because they don’t much care. You’ve got the usual excuses right: their presumptions of numbers, or their infernal “surveys” or their contention that priests are not trained in the EF are just that: excuses. The real reason is that they, themselves, have no interest in the EF. Forget the EF: they don’t, as a rule, have much interest in the “reform of the reform” OF either. The idea is, apparently, “let’s not rock the boat” and a proliferation of the EF (or even the “reform of the reform” OF) would do just that.

As I said before, Summorum Pontificum liberated the EF from the absurdity of an “indult” which was all too often not granted. When it was granted, it was often done in such a way as to make sure the EF was offered only in out-of-the-way locations, away from the mainstream of people. Hmmm. And now, even after SP, many of those same bishops are still interfering, but now they use their excuses rather than the “indult” being withheld.

I daresay that most parishioners don’t even know that such a thing as the EF exists. They don’t even know that the OF can be done in its “reform of the reform” mode. Now why is that? Could it be because there is a lack of chatechesis on the part of many bishops and clergy? Why, one might actually think they don’t want to present either option. Are they afraid it might catch on?

So, yes, it’s a catch-22. Big time.
 
Indeed most bishops are “not out promoting” the EF, mostly likely because they don’t much care. You’ve got the usual excuses right: their presumptions of numbers, or their infernal “surveys” or their contention that priests are not trained in the EF are just that: excuses. The real reason is that they, themselves, have no interest in the EF. Forget the EF: they don’t, as a rule, have much interest in the “reform of the reform” OF either. The idea is, apparently, “let’s not rock the boat” and a proliferation of the EF (or even the “reform of the reform” OF) would do just that.

As I said before, Summorum Pontificum liberated the EF from the absurdity of an “indult” which was all too often not granted. When it was granted, it was often done in such a way as to make sure the EF was offered only in out-of-the-way locations, away from the mainstream of people. Hmmm. And now, even after SP, many of those same bishops are still interfering, but now they use their excuses rather than the “indult” being withheld.

I daresay that most parishioners don’t even know that such a thing as the EF exists. They don’t even know that the OF can be done in its “reform of the reform” mode. Now why is that? Could it be because there is a lack of chatechesis on the part of many bishops and clergy? Why, one might actually think they don’t want to present either option. Are they afraid it might catch on?

So, yes, it’s a catch-22. Big time.
You sound angry. I can understand if you have wanted the EF that you might feel that way, and please understand it is not my intent to pull your chain. Nothing I have said is in any way intended as derogatory either to the EF or to anyone who wishes for it.

I think you are right in regards to some of the bishops; but I don’t think that any of us can legitimately paint all, or most, or necessarily even the majority of bishops as obstructionists. We have a number of parishes in Oregon which have one priest, usually elderly, where they really should ahve two priests. My parish is an example; last I heard we have 1200 families or better, a new school, and our single priest is over 70 and is at it full time. We have a number of parishes in which a priest covers two parishes; others where a priest covers three. In simple pure numbers we do not have enough priests to get done what needs to be done if the EF were not even an issue. Adding the EF to this mix only further complicates an already complex series of issues.

The movement towards the EF seems much stronger in both Fance and Brazil than it does in the US. Why Brazil I don’'t know, but France has issues overalying the EF/OF issue that go back to the French Revolution. Most of that is simply unkown in the US and not a factor. And that tends to leave those who prefer the EF even more isolated.

Your comment about the bishops not being interested seems to have a paralell in this thread and others, where people who are attending the EF are reporting that there are more young people than older. Most of the bishops today grew up during the time where the EF was the only form, as did most of those parishoners who are in their mid 50’s and older. The interesting question is why, for all those who were exposed to the EF for their formative years, so few seem interested in returning to it.
 
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