Is the trinity contradictory?

[jochoa]

Can the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be three different persons,(all different in identity), and simoultaneously the same God, (Same in identity)? Interested to see your views on the problem.

As per your question, no, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot be three different identities and simultaneously be the same God/identity. However, your question is not in accord with Catholic Knowledge of God. Catholicism knows the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can be three distinct persons (different in expressing God’s Identity), and simultaneously be the same God/Identity.

For example: God is Love.
Therefore:

1. The Father is Always Love.
2. The Son is Always Love with a different expression of always love than the Father and the Holy Spirit, namely eternal generation. One way to understand eternal generation is Always being Love, but assumed by another for a time to act outside of love.
3. The Holy Spirit is Always Love with a different expression of always love than the Father and the Son, namely eternal procession. One way to understand eternal procession is Always being Love, but completely sacrificing always love, in order to demonstrate the process of becoming always love to others that are not always love.

As for your initial question: Is the trinity contradictory? Depends on the trinity in question. As for the Holy Trinity, according to the Catholic Faith: No, the Holy Trinity is not contradictory.

Thanks for sharing the interesting food for thought! I look forward to further discussion!

 

[yppop]

I suppose you can say that “a square is circular” and the statement can be understood in the sense that it equates a noun with a noun. But it is a meaningless statement because if one understands the concept of “roundness” then it’s meaning cannot be applied to what is understood as “square”.

The doctrine of the trinity is perhaps best understood as a device to place Christ within a monotheistic context. The ancients struggled with this question for decades before arriving at a description. To the extent to which there was inherent conflict with logic, it became alibied by characterizing the conflict as a mystery of faith.

WmPJack
In post #10 of your thread called “The Nature of God” you argued the illogic of the Trinity with two examples: 1+1+1 = 3 not 1 and a circle is not a square

In my post #31 in the same thread I pointed out that 1+1+1=1 is not illogical when using transfinite numbers. There is no problem fitting three modalities of counting in the first transfinite number. Thus the integers = the odd numbers = the prime numbers = aleph (null). In the infinite the parts can equal the whole. And in the Trinity three persons (modalities) exist consubstantially as one infinite person.

What about a circle does not equal a square. That may be true is geometry, but it is not true in topology. To the topologists the circle is homeomorphic to the square. Meaning they are equivalent.

The human mind is an amazing thing that can approach the transcendental or become fossilized in the mundane. Such is one’s reflection on the Trinity.

Yppop

 

[Thorns]

When I was a young child this was explained to me in a really simple way:

A man can be a son to his own father, he can be a father to his own son, he is also an individual who is loving — are they the same person? Yes.

This is an example of one man with different titles, not one entity that is also three different people.

I much rather prefer the analogy to that of a tree and its branches or fingers that are all separate in their purpose yet they are all part of one hand.

 

[makachini]

As for the Trinity, does not imply the existence of more than a necessary and absolute Being . It is one Being, and Three Persons really distinct from one another and really identical to that one Self

Surely that is a mystery, but you can not prove it contradictory.

The principle of comparative identity applies here as follows:

" Two really identical to a third things are really identical, if they are also conceptually identical to the third. If not , then they are really identical, if not saved relative opposition to each other . But besides not being conceptually identical to that third , keep each other relative opposition , then they can not be truly identical, must be really distinct from one another . "

And with that we are not showing the Trinitarian mystery , because to say that this mystery there need a premise that says there are Three Persons really distinct from each other and oppose each other in a relative in God. And that premise can only have it for the supernatural divine revelation .

 

[chefmomster2]

We used this with kids when they are little:

The Trinity is like an apple.
The skin is apple, but it is not the same as the flesh.
The flesh is apple, but it is not the same as the core.
The core is apple, but it is not the same as the skin.
You need all three to have an apple.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

many people say that the trinity is contradictory. I guess the argument goes that three DIFFERENT things can not be the one and the SAME thing in terms of identity, since different means (not the same), and the same means (not different). Can the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be three different persons,(all different in identity), and simoultaneously the same God, (Same in identity)? Interested to see your views on the problem.

Trinity a contradiction? Only when one is viewing the Trinity of persons as God’s essence, which is unapproachable by human standards.

The Trinity gives name to the persons who reveal the presence of God not His essence.

God is Tri -person in revelation never divided eternally One God. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct in revelation and procession that gives name singular to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, each distinct in person from one another that reveals God revealing Himself from the eternal procession made known in time and space (creation) via the persons of the Trinity, not God’s essence which does not come down to us in space and time, yet the presence of God is made known in the persons of the Trinity = One God.

Scripture reveals the Father’s presence (not essence) in the voice. Scripture reveals the Son in the Word, scripture reveals the Holy Spirit in the breath of God who gives life. These are all distinct in person revealing God’s presence, when the Trinity of persons are never divided, but are distinct in revelation, all being consubstantial One God.

God the Father the voice, God the Son the Word, God the Holy Spirit the breath reveals the procession of God in Trinity. All three are distinct from one another in person because each one is God, yet the Voice (Father), the Word (Son) and the breath (Holy Spirit) distinct as they are in revelation, they are never divided One God.

What makes the Father greater than the Son is revealed in the procession of persons. First the Father who sends His Word, and the Word is One with the Voice, because the Son is not Father because the Son does not beget another, and the breath proceeds from both distinctly, when the breath proceeds from the Voice and the Word who makes them known. Only God receives testimony from God, not from men.

When the Word is never divided from the Voice or the breath, The Trinity is One, because all three proceed distinctly, the Father sends and begets a Son, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, yet in the procession each person never ceases to be God. The Trinity reveals the procession of person’s who reveals God’s presence.

Does the Voice, the Word, the Breath of God reveal the Trinity? NO not even close.

It only reaches into the mystery of the Trinity from what God has revealed and made His presence known in the Voice, the Word and Breath of God. God has created man in His image and likeness.

When man speaks his voice, the man images the Trinity of persons. When the man’s voice, word and breath are distinct from man’s nature, yet all three are the same person revealing what the man sends to make known in his voice, word and breath that proceeds from him.

In conclusion; The Father proceeds from no one, He is greater than the Son, because the Son comes from the Father who sends Him and life the breath of God proceeds from both the Father and the Son.

You guys have posted some great insights into the mystery of the blessed Trinity, thank you

Peace be with you

 

[chefmomster2]

What makes the Father greater than the Son is revealed in the procession of persons…The Father proceeds from no one, He is greater than the Son, because the Son comes from the Father who sends Him and life the breath of God proceeds from both the Father and the Son.

I agree with the procession as you describe it. But, I do not agree that God is greater than the Son or the Spirit.

Jesus was temporarily lower even than the angels** in status**. This occurs at the Incarnation when Jesus became man. However, Jesus was still fully divine. God cannot stop being God. However He did voluntarily relinquish his Divine Will and agree to subject Himself to God the Father while He was on Earth. This had to happen in order that His fully Human nature could be fulfilled.

Subservience in role does not mean subservient in nature. God is fully God in the Person of the Father, the Person of Christ and the Person of the Holy Spirit. God cannot be “greater than” God no more than God can be l"esser than God". They have no difference in their essence. They are in essence equal, but play different roles in the Divine Plan. These roles are defined by subservience and authority, but not the Divine Persons. The Father commands the Son, and the Father and the Son command the Holy Spirit. They are nonetheless equal persons even as One serves another in role.

This is explained wonderfully in the Athanasian Creed:

For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is** all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.**

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal.

As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God.

So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.

For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords.

The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

Peace be with you

And with your spirit!

Read more: gotquestions.org/Father-greater-I.html#ixzz31oYneR6k

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

chefmomster2;11996467]I agree with the procession as you describe it. But, I do not agree that God is greater than the Son or the Spirit.

Hello chefmornster; I agree with you that God is not greater than the Son or the Spirit, who ever said it? I never said that. That is blasphemy.

I only repeated what Jesus revealed in time and space (incarnation); “The Father is greater than I” = The “Father is greater than the Son”, is what I said.

There is a world of difference from Jesus teaching “the Father is greater than I”, when compared to your position that you “do not agree that God is greater than the Son or the Spirit”.

Before I move on in explanation to clarify this teaching of Jesus and many early Church Fathers, I need to know if you still hold to the position of the Father not being greater than the Son?

In short the Trinity reveals the procession of the Father who sends, the Son and the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father, it is from this procession that reveals the Father is greater than the Son. God’s essence is not revealed in the Trinity, only the presence of God in the persons of the Trinity proceeding, when the Father does not proceed, the Father begets and sends.

When you say God, all three persons of the Trinity are One God, God cannot be greater than God? God reveals that unapproachable essence, for any man to see God would surely die. What is God, we profess that the Son is consubstantial with the Father and the Holy Spirit One God without space and time eternally present existing from His Essence that never comes down to us.

I’m still reviewing the latter part of your post; Thank you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

chefmomster2;11996467]I agree with the procession as you describe it. But, I do not agree that God is greater than the Son or the Spirit.

This is explained wonderfully in the Athanasian Creed:

I never read this as an Athanasian Creed?

Never the less, I asure you everything I posted does not conflict or contradict what is revealed from what you call the “Athanasian Creed”. When your underline reveals from the Trinity none are greater than the other does not reveal three god’s, but what is eternal of all three persons in consubstantial = in Essence One God. Procession of the Trinity does not reveal the Essence of God.

Trinity a contradiction? Only when one is viewing the Trinity of persons as God’s essence, which is unapproachable by human standards.

If you follow that, we have no disagreement of the Father is greater than the Son.
But I await your reply;

Peace be with you

 

[chefmomster2]

I never read this as an Athanasian Creed?

Never the less, I asure you everything I posted does not conflict or contradict what is revealed from what you call the “Athanasian Creed”. When your underline reveals from the Trinity none are greater than the other does not reveal three god’s, but what is eternal of all three persons in consubstantial = in Essence One God. Procession of the Trinity does not reveal the Essence of God.

Trinity a contradiction? Only when one is viewing the Trinity of persons as God’s essence, which is unapproachable by human standards.

If you follow that, we have no disagreement of the Father is greater than the Son.
But I await your reply;

Peace be with you

No, we have no true disagreement with this explanation. The post was difficult to follow, at least for folks like me who don’t speak fluent “magisterium”.

 

[babylonfalling]

many people say that the trinity is contradictory. I guess the argument goes that three DIFFERENT things can not be the one and the SAME thing in terms of identity, since different means (not the same), and the same means (not different). Can the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be three different persons,(all different in identity), and simoultaneously the same God, (Same in identity)? Interested to see your views on the problem.

In terms of limited human knowledge, it may appear contradictory to some. I think the trick is to remember that our ability to understand the things of God will always be limited, and that God desires faith anyway.