L
lemonbeam
Guest
Is the Trinity in the Bible?
- Status
B
Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
Yes, God reveals Himself as a Triune God many time beginning in Genesis and through out the New Testament many times.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Yes and no.
No, if you are looking for a fully-developed theology of one God, three persons, co-eternal, sharing a single nature, etc.
Yes, if you are comfortable with passages such as:
Luke 3:21-22
21When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
N
Newbie2
Guest
The word “Trinity”? No.
The notion or concept of “Trinity”? Yes.
The notion or concept of “Trinity”? Yes.
J
JustaServant
Guest
I had at one time a whole series of handwritten proof-texts from the OT, NT, and early Church history on the Trinity. But they were lost.
The Trinity is certainly taught in the Bible.
1
1edyson
Guest
Is the word, Bible in the Bible?
V
VociMike
Guest
This is the correct answer. If one is looking for the Trinity in the bible one will find it. But if one approaches the bible with no preconceptions or preparation, one will certainly not find the Trinity as fully understood by the Church.
K
Katebar
Guest
I’ve just read your homepage and it was really inspiring. My agnostic husband had just asked me some questions about Mary and the Rosary and if both were in the Scriptures. He wanted to defend my religion against some women at his work who made a negative comment about Mary being our ‘goddess’. I told him the passages you mentioned in your blog. My Lutheran friend subscribes to a daily Catholic prayer guide and was sent a Rosary in the mail by a Catholic charity. She was going to give it to me, but suddenly SHE changed her mind and said SHE wanted to try it. I gave her some advice on medtation. I now want to pray the Rosary to help me through the recent death of my little brother on Palm Sunday. Thank you for your inspiration to pray.
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
I have wrestled with the question of the Trinity myself. I am puzzled by several New Testament Scriptures.
Luke 3:21-22 (NJB): 21 Now it happened that when all the people had been baptised and while Jesus after his own baptism was at prayer, heaven opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in a physical form, like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, ‘You are my Son; today have I fathered you.’
If God fathered Jesus on the day of His Baptism, what does that mean in terms of the Trinity?
1 Timothy says there is only one God and refers to Christ as the “one mediator between God and humanity” and as “himself a human being.”
1 Timothy 2:5-7 (NJB): 5 For there is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and humanity, himself a human being, Christ Jesus, 6 who offered himself as a ransom for all. This was the witness given at the appointed time, 7 of which I was appointed herald and apostle and – I am telling the truth and no lie – a teacher of the gentiles in faith and truth.
In John, Jesus said, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.”
John 14:8-10 (NJB): 8 Philip said, ‘Lord, show us the Father and then we shall be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, 9 'Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? 'Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father, so how can you say, “Show us the Father”? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? What I say to you I do not speak of my own accord: it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his works.
According to 1 Timothy, no one has seen God; “God alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. Jesus died on the cross, so he was not immortal, until God raised him from the dead.
1 Timothy 6:13-16 (NJB): 13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before[a] Pontius Pilate made the good confession, 14 to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. Footnotes: 1 Timothy 6:13 Or in the time of
1 Timothy 6:13-16 (NIV): 13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
If God fathered Jesus upon Baptism saying, ‘You are my Son; today have I fathered you’ and “there is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and humanity, himself a human being, Christ Jesus”; and God is “the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, and “alone is immortal” and “lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see”; how does this demonstrate the Trinity?
Luke 3:21-22 (NJB): 21 Now it happened that when all the people had been baptised and while Jesus after his own baptism was at prayer, heaven opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in a physical form, like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, ‘You are my Son; today have I fathered you.’
If God fathered Jesus on the day of His Baptism, what does that mean in terms of the Trinity?
1 Timothy says there is only one God and refers to Christ as the “one mediator between God and humanity” and as “himself a human being.”
1 Timothy 2:5-7 (NJB): 5 For there is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and humanity, himself a human being, Christ Jesus, 6 who offered himself as a ransom for all. This was the witness given at the appointed time, 7 of which I was appointed herald and apostle and – I am telling the truth and no lie – a teacher of the gentiles in faith and truth.
In John, Jesus said, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.”
John 14:8-10 (NJB): 8 Philip said, ‘Lord, show us the Father and then we shall be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, 9 'Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? 'Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father, so how can you say, “Show us the Father”? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? What I say to you I do not speak of my own accord: it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his works.
According to 1 Timothy, no one has seen God; “God alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. Jesus died on the cross, so he was not immortal, until God raised him from the dead.
1 Timothy 6:13-16 (NJB): 13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before[a] Pontius Pilate made the good confession, 14 to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. Footnotes: 1 Timothy 6:13 Or in the time of
1 Timothy 6:13-16 (NIV): 13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
If God fathered Jesus upon Baptism saying, ‘You are my Son; today have I fathered you’ and “there is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and humanity, himself a human being, Christ Jesus”; and God is “the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, and “alone is immortal” and “lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see”; how does this demonstrate the Trinity?
J
JOE_OBERR
Guest
It is mentioned in the bible in Luke 3:21-22, Mt 28:19 and possibly some other verses. Something to remember though is that the teaching on the Trinity, as do all teachings of the Catholic Church, comes directly from Jesus to the Apostles who began teaching it from the beginning of their ministry.
That is, the whole Catholic faith was taught by the Apostles as they learned it directly from Jesus. The Church didn’t have to wait until the 390’s, when the books of the bible were decided, to start teaching doctrine, whether on the Trinity, the divinity of Jesus, the existence of purgatory, the need for baptism to be saved etc.
The bible is primarily salvation history, it is not a catechism, which is why those Christian denominations which purport to use it as such can’t agree on the meaning of even one single verse (according to S. Hahn). The bible is great for witnessing to the teachings of the Church but remember, it is not the source of the teachings. The teachings are sourced ultimately from Jesus who taught the Apostles everything he learned from his Father (Jn 15:15).
As a result, the whole Gospel as preached by the Apostles is NOT found in the bible as that is not its intended purpose. That is a man made tradition from a former catholic priest named M. Luther in the 1500’s.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Let me guess…you’re Jehovah’s Witnesses, right?
Here is the actual passage:
Luke 3:21-22 (NIV)
21When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
You have confused this passage with:
Psalm 2:7
I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father.
God “fathered” Jesus at the moment of His conception when the second person of the Blessed Trinity became incarnate by taking on human flesh. Your mis-quote does nothing to deny the doctrine of the Trinity.
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Randy: I am delighted to find a comment so quickly. I am not a Jehovah’s Witness. I am a Christian. Since I am not Catholic, my only choice for this forum is Protestant. I am not trying to deny the Trinity. I am just trying to understand how certain scriptures support the doctrine of the Trinity. It is interesting that you quoted Luke 3:21-22 from the NIV, which is a Protestant translation. My quote of Luke 3:21-22 was taken from the New Jerusalem Bible, which is a Catholic Bible translation. Please note the words of the voice from heaven spoken upon the Baptism of Jesus in the following 4 Catholic translations:
Christian Community Bible (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Luke 3:21-22
Jesus is baptized by John 21 Now, with all the people who came to be baptized, Jesus too was baptized. Then, while he was praying, the heavens opened: 22 the Holy Spirit came down upon him in the bodily form of a dove and a voice from heaven was heard, “You are my Son, this day I have begotten you.”
New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Luke 3:21-22
Jesus is baptised 21 Now it happened that when all the people had been baptised and while Jesus after his own baptism was at prayer, heaven opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in a physical form, like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, 'You are my Son; today have I fathered you.'b
Revised Standard Version Catholic Bible (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Luke 3:21-22
The Baptism of Jesus 21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, “Thou art my beloved Son; [Or my Son, my (or the) beloved] with thee I am well pleased." (other ancient authorities read today I have begotten thee.)
(NRSV) Catholic Bible (Anglicized) (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Luke 3:21-22
The Baptism of Jesus 21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my Son, the Beloved (Or my beloved Son) with you I am well pleased. (other ancient authorities read You are my Son, today I have begotten you.)
Christian Community Bible (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Luke 3:21-22
Jesus is baptized by John 21 Now, with all the people who came to be baptized, Jesus too was baptized. Then, while he was praying, the heavens opened: 22 the Holy Spirit came down upon him in the bodily form of a dove and a voice from heaven was heard, “You are my Son, this day I have begotten you.”
New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Luke 3:21-22
Jesus is baptised 21 Now it happened that when all the people had been baptised and while Jesus after his own baptism was at prayer, heaven opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in a physical form, like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, 'You are my Son; today have I fathered you.'b
Revised Standard Version Catholic Bible (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Luke 3:21-22
The Baptism of Jesus 21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, “Thou art my beloved Son; [Or my Son, my (or the) beloved] with thee I am well pleased." (other ancient authorities read today I have begotten thee.)
(NRSV) Catholic Bible (Anglicized) (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Luke 3:21-22
The Baptism of Jesus 21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my Son, the Beloved (Or my beloved Son) with you I am well pleased. (other ancient authorities read You are my Son, today I have begotten you.)
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Randy: I am delighted to find a comment so quickly. I am not a Jehovah’s Witness. I am a Christian. Since I am not Catholic, my only choice for this forum is Protestant. I am not trying to deny the Trinity. I am just trying to understand how certain scriptures support the doctrine of the Trinity. It is interesting that you quoted Luke 3:21-22 from the NIV, which is a Protestant translation. My quote of Luke 3:21-22 was taken from the New Jerusalem Bible, which is a Catholic Bible translation. Please note the words of the voice from heaven spoken upon the Baptism of Jesus in the following 4 Catholic translations:
Christian Community Bible (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Luke 3:21-22
Jesus is baptized by John 21 Now, with all the people who came to be baptized, Jesus too was baptized. Then, while he was praying, the heavens opened: 22 the Holy Spirit came down upon him in the bodily form of a dove and a voice from heaven was heard, “You are my Son, this day I have begotten you.”
New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Luke 3:21-22
Jesus is baptised 21 Now it happened that when all the people had been baptised and while Jesus after his own baptism was at prayer, heaven opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in a physical form, like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, 'You are my Son; today have I fathered you.'b
Revised Standard Version Catholic Bible (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Luke 3:21-22
The Baptism of Jesus 21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, “Thou art my beloved Son; [Or my Son, my (or the) beloved] with thee I am well pleased." (other ancient authorities read today I have begotten thee.)
(NRSV) Catholic Bible (Anglicized) (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Luke 3:21-22
The Baptism of Jesus 21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my Son, the Beloved (Or my beloved Son) with you I am well pleased. (other ancient authorities read You are my Son, today I have begotten you.)
Christian Community Bible (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Luke 3:21-22
Jesus is baptized by John 21 Now, with all the people who came to be baptized, Jesus too was baptized. Then, while he was praying, the heavens opened: 22 the Holy Spirit came down upon him in the bodily form of a dove and a voice from heaven was heard, “You are my Son, this day I have begotten you.”
New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Luke 3:21-22
Jesus is baptised 21 Now it happened that when all the people had been baptised and while Jesus after his own baptism was at prayer, heaven opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in a physical form, like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, 'You are my Son; today have I fathered you.'b
Revised Standard Version Catholic Bible (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Luke 3:21-22
The Baptism of Jesus 21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, “Thou art my beloved Son; [Or my Son, my (or the) beloved] with thee I am well pleased." (other ancient authorities read today I have begotten thee.)
(NRSV) Catholic Bible (Anglicized) (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Luke 3:21-22
The Baptism of Jesus 21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my Son, the Beloved (Or my beloved Son) with you I am well pleased. (other ancient authorities read You are my Son, today I have begotten you.)
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Heh. Check out the King James.
J
JesuisSean
Guest
Granted, a lot of people think that God is no smarter than the average man, and thus say that nothing can exist within the Bible that the average Joe blow can not see.
However, have a look at this. Using English Gematria, where A=6, B=12, C=18, D=24,…, Z=156, words can be converted into numbers.
Examples: GOD = 156, JESUS = 444, CHRIST = 462, JESUS CHRIST = 906, etc.
Now if you look at the KJV New Testament, and search for the words " THE FATHER ", you will find these words 156 times, thus THE FATHER is GOD since GOD = 156.
Now if you look at the KJV New Testament, and search for the words " THE LORD ", you will find these words 462 times, thus THE LORD is CHRIST since CHRIST = 462.
Now about the Trinity.
Again if you look at the KJV New Testament, you find the following words the number of times shown below.
THE FATHER…(156)
THE SON…304
THE HOLY SPIRIT…2
…Total = (462)
Once again 156 and 462 appear. This gives the impression that ONE is the father, the son, and the holy spirit too(2).
Is Christ God then ?
Well if you bring ELS Bible Codes into the picture, and set your ELS Min. and Max range as ( -462 ) to ( 462 ), and you search for the “MARK” “OF GOD”, you will find the following.
MARK …(462)
OF GOD… 694
…Total = 1(156)
156 and 462 appear again.
Or if you bring ELS Bible Codes into the picture, and set your ELS Min. and Max range as 1 to ( 462 ), and you search for the “MARK” “OF GOD”, you will find the following.
MARK …912
OF GOD… 352
…Total = 1(444)
Here we find 444, and what coincidence since JESUS = 444!
The proceeding “1” implies one JESUS, just as the previous 1(156) implied there is only one GOD.
Or if you bring ELS Bible Codes into the picture, and set your ELS Min. and Max range as 1 to ( 156 ), and you search for the “WORD” “OF GOD”, you will find the following.
WORD …818
OF GOD … 626
…Total = 1(444)
Here again we find 444, and what coincidence since JESUS = 444!
Just as the previous, “1” implies one JESUS…
However, have a look at this. Using English Gematria, where A=6, B=12, C=18, D=24,…, Z=156, words can be converted into numbers.
Examples: GOD = 156, JESUS = 444, CHRIST = 462, JESUS CHRIST = 906, etc.
Now if you look at the KJV New Testament, and search for the words " THE FATHER ", you will find these words 156 times, thus THE FATHER is GOD since GOD = 156.
Now if you look at the KJV New Testament, and search for the words " THE LORD ", you will find these words 462 times, thus THE LORD is CHRIST since CHRIST = 462.
Now about the Trinity.
Again if you look at the KJV New Testament, you find the following words the number of times shown below.
THE FATHER…(156)
THE SON…304
THE HOLY SPIRIT…2
…Total = (462)
Once again 156 and 462 appear. This gives the impression that ONE is the father, the son, and the holy spirit too(2).
Is Christ God then ?
Well if you bring ELS Bible Codes into the picture, and set your ELS Min. and Max range as ( -462 ) to ( 462 ), and you search for the “MARK” “OF GOD”, you will find the following.
MARK …(462)
OF GOD… 694
…Total = 1(156)
156 and 462 appear again.
Or if you bring ELS Bible Codes into the picture, and set your ELS Min. and Max range as 1 to ( 462 ), and you search for the “MARK” “OF GOD”, you will find the following.
MARK …912
OF GOD… 352
…Total = 1(444)
Here we find 444, and what coincidence since JESUS = 444!
The proceeding “1” implies one JESUS, just as the previous 1(156) implied there is only one GOD.
Or if you bring ELS Bible Codes into the picture, and set your ELS Min. and Max range as 1 to ( 156 ), and you search for the “WORD” “OF GOD”, you will find the following.
WORD …818
OF GOD … 626
…Total = 1(444)
Here again we find 444, and what coincidence since JESUS = 444!
Just as the previous, “1” implies one JESUS…
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Joe Oberr:
I read your answer regarding the Trinity. Since I am not Catholic, I am trying to understand your beliefs.
You stated, “The bible is great for witnessing to the teachings of the Church but remember, it is not the source of the teachings. The teachings are sourced ultimately from Jesus who taught the Apostles everything he learned from his Father (Jn 15:15). As a result, the whole Gospel as preached by the Apostles is NOT found in the bible as that is not its intended purpose. That is a man made tradition from a former catholic priest named M. Luther in the 1500’s.”
First, let me say that I denounce any connection to Martin Luther. I found many of his writings and actions to be reprehensible.
In my earlier posts, I quoted Catholic Bible Translations for Luke 3:21-22, in which the voice from heaven said to Jesus, “You are my Son; today have I fathered you.”
You stated, “The bible is great for witnessing to the teachings of the Church but remember, it is not the source of the teachings.” I must ask this: Are you saying that even the Catholic Bible Translations are not the source of the teachings of Christ?
I read your answer regarding the Trinity. Since I am not Catholic, I am trying to understand your beliefs.
You stated, “The bible is great for witnessing to the teachings of the Church but remember, it is not the source of the teachings. The teachings are sourced ultimately from Jesus who taught the Apostles everything he learned from his Father (Jn 15:15). As a result, the whole Gospel as preached by the Apostles is NOT found in the bible as that is not its intended purpose. That is a man made tradition from a former catholic priest named M. Luther in the 1500’s.”
First, let me say that I denounce any connection to Martin Luther. I found many of his writings and actions to be reprehensible.
In my earlier posts, I quoted Catholic Bible Translations for Luke 3:21-22, in which the voice from heaven said to Jesus, “You are my Son; today have I fathered you.”
You stated, “The bible is great for witnessing to the teachings of the Church but remember, it is not the source of the teachings.” I must ask this: Are you saying that even the Catholic Bible Translations are not the source of the teachings of Christ?
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Randy:
What does “Check out the King James” have to do with the Catholic Bible translations I quoted in my earlier post of today?
Regarding The King James Bible: I have studied the history of this translation, and I urge you to do some research on your own. The King James Bible, though an inspirational and beautiful translation, has many flaws and inaccuracies. After publication of the KJV, older and more accurate manuscripts were discovered, leading to more accurate Biblical translations.
Having said that, I believe the KJV is a remarkable accomplishment in the Christian faith. Men died making this translation: they gave their lives to give the Bible to the common man. For that, I am truly grateful. I believe that all of Christendom is indebted to these brave me of God.
I am looking for answers regarding the truth of God. And I welcome the opinions of Christians such as you. Again, I am grateful that you have entered into a discussion with me.
Let’s get back to the voice from heaven as recorded in Luke—translated to English in multiple Catholic Bibles (and several Protestant Bibles, as well):
Luke 3:21-22 New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) (The Catholic Comparative New Testament): Jesus is baptised 21 Now it happened that when all the people had been baptised and while Jesus after his own baptism was at prayer, heaven opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in a physical form, like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, ‘You are my Son; today have I fathered you.’
If God “fathered” Jesus after He was baptized, as multiple translations state; how does that fit the doctrine of the Trinity (and I do believe in the Trinity)?
Since you are Catholic, I thought you could give me your interpretation of scriptures in the Catholic Bibles.
I look forward to your ideas and comments, and welcome those of others in the Forum.
What does “Check out the King James” have to do with the Catholic Bible translations I quoted in my earlier post of today?
Regarding The King James Bible: I have studied the history of this translation, and I urge you to do some research on your own. The King James Bible, though an inspirational and beautiful translation, has many flaws and inaccuracies. After publication of the KJV, older and more accurate manuscripts were discovered, leading to more accurate Biblical translations.
Having said that, I believe the KJV is a remarkable accomplishment in the Christian faith. Men died making this translation: they gave their lives to give the Bible to the common man. For that, I am truly grateful. I believe that all of Christendom is indebted to these brave me of God.
I am looking for answers regarding the truth of God. And I welcome the opinions of Christians such as you. Again, I am grateful that you have entered into a discussion with me.
Let’s get back to the voice from heaven as recorded in Luke—translated to English in multiple Catholic Bibles (and several Protestant Bibles, as well):
Luke 3:21-22 New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) (The Catholic Comparative New Testament): Jesus is baptised 21 Now it happened that when all the people had been baptised and while Jesus after his own baptism was at prayer, heaven opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in a physical form, like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, ‘You are my Son; today have I fathered you.’
If God “fathered” Jesus after He was baptized, as multiple translations state; how does that fit the doctrine of the Trinity (and I do believe in the Trinity)?
Since you are Catholic, I thought you could give me your interpretation of scriptures in the Catholic Bibles.
I look forward to your ideas and comments, and welcome those of others in the Forum.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Anna-
First, I forgot to apologize previously for presuming that you were JW based on your question about the Trinity.
Second, my second comment was simply recognition of the irony that a Protestant was quoting Catholic translations while a Catholic was quoting Protestant translations.
Nothing more.
If you are truly interested in learning more about where we got the Bible, I suggest reading a small booklet available IN FULL for FREE:
Where We Got the Bible
Our Debt to the Catholic Church
by Rev. Henry G. Graham
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm
I have no further thoughts on the revelation of the Trinity at this time, but I will direct you to the section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church which discusses this matter:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p2.htm#240
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Randy, no apology is necessary for assuming I was a JW. And it is interesting that a Protestant was quoting Catholic translations, while a Catholic was quoting a Protestant translation.
I have been comparing translations for several years now, and I have found that the Catholic Bibles seem to render more accurate translations. The New Jerusalem Bible is my favorite translation. I also have The Catholic Comparative New Testament.
I will check Where We Got the Bible as you suggested.
I have enjoyed our discussions regarding the Trinity. However, I am disappointed that you chose to offer no opinions on the words spoken by the voice from heaven in Luke 3:21-22.
I have many serious questions about the Scriptures, and it seems that no one wants to answer them directly.
I have asked questions in the Protestant sector, and have not had much success there either.
I continue to pray for God’s truth. Hopefully we can discuss another topic on the Forum.
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Joe Oberr:
I posted much of this message to you on the Forum yesterday. I am sending this directly to you today-still learning to navigate the Forum.
I read your answer regarding the Trinity. Since I am not Catholic, I am trying to understand your beliefs.
You stated, “The bible is great for witnessing to the teachings of the Church but remember, it is not the source of the teachings. The teachings are sourced ultimately from Jesus who taught the Apostles everything he learned from his Father (Jn 15:15). As a result, the whole Gospel as preached by the Apostles is NOT found in the bible as that is not its intended purpose. That is a man made tradition from a former catholic priest named M. Luther in the 1500’s.”
First, let me say that I denounce any connection to Martin Luther. I found many of his writings and actions to be reprehensible.
In my earlier posts, I quoted Catholic Bible Translations for Luke 3:21-22, in which the voice from heaven said to Jesus, “You are my Son; today have I fathered you.”
You stated, “The bible is great for witnessing to the teachings of the Church but remember, it is not the source of the teachings.”
Please be patient with me. I am, after all, a Protestant. I do believe that Jesus taught the disciples and those teachings were passed down through the generations. I know that oral transmission of those teachings preceded the written scripture. I will do some research on Catechism, since this is foreign to Protestants.
You also stated, “The Bible is great for witnessing to the teachings of the Church.” So, am I not allowed to ask what a particular scripture means? I am quoting Catholic translations.
As I stated in a previous post, no one seems to want to give me a direct answer regarding the words of the voice from heaven in Luke 3:21-22: “You are my Son; today have I fathered you.” This rendering is found in at least 4 Catholic Bibles and a few Protestant Bibles as well.
Questions:
- If God said to Jesus upon Baptism, “You are my Son; today have I fathered you”: What does that mean in terms of the Trinity and the Divinity of Christ?
- If God “fathered” Jesus after He was baptized, how does that fit with the belief that Jesus was God Incarnate?
I grew up believing in the Trinity and the Divinity of Christ. When I read the Bible cover to cover; I found many scriptures that led to serious questions. I just need someone to give a direct answer to some of those questions. Unfortunately, Christians (both Catholic & Protestant) keep avoiding a direct answer to my questions.
- Status