Is the Trinity reflected in sex?

[mikeeh]

We seem to be talking past each other. My original post was asking if the Trinity in its “immanent” sense, without regard to creation, but the eternal relations between the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is in some way reflected in the human act of sexual procreation. But you seem to be thinking in terms of the Trinity in its “economic” sense - the work of the persons of the Trinity toward creation. Again, my original question is just about the immanent understanding of the Trinity, not the economic workings of God toward creation.

I think I see what you’re trying to say now. I think the analogies you were using in your original post confused me since they mostly talked about something coming from something else. Nevertheless, I can’t imagine how you would compare the Trinity to the human act of sexual procreation without creation being involved. The Church tends to be very staunch on human sexual procreation actually reproducing another human. So if the Trinity is to be compared to that act it would mean something must be created. Just keep reading the Pope’s Thesis.

Also, it is incorrect to say, “The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son because that was the next step in the process of salvation.” The truth is that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son eternally, without regard to creation or the process of salvation. At the same time, the way in which the Holy Spirit is sent to the Apostles (by Jesus breathing on them, and following the Ascension) reflects that the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son.

This link to Aquinas might help:

newadvent.org/summa/1043.htm

“Thus if the sender be designated as the principle of the person sent, in this sense not each person sends, but that person only Who is the principle of that person who is sent; and thus the Son is sent only by the Father; and the Holy Ghost by the Father and the Son. If, however, the person sending is understood as the principle of the effect implied in the mission, in that sense the whole Trinity sends the person sent.” (Q 43.8)

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I think the process of salvation wasn’t the best phrase I could have used. Of course the Trinity is eternal, but that doesn’t mean the Son was crucified in Genesis. He was born of Mary much later. Likewise, the Spirit existed but was sent back down to us after the fulfillment of Christ to help us to salvation.

 

[hasantas]

You all go wrong more than Greek mythology! There is no equal and counterpart for God.

Christians are intelligent and rational. If the doctrines were not belong to Church of Christians they would struggle with that very hard. Because such things(doctrines, ascribe God female or male) are not rational.

 

[goout]

You all go wrong more than Greek mythology! There is no equal and counterpart for God.

Who claimed there is an equal and counterpart for God? Can you cite the post?

Christians are intelligent and rational. If the doctrines were not belong to Church of Christians they would struggle with that very hard. Because such things(doctrines, ascribe God female or male) are not rational.

We do not ascribe Gender to God.
Referring to God as “father” does not mean we ascribe “male” to God.
He has attributes that we can best humanly describe as fatherly.

 

[hasantas]

Don’t you think it’s interesting that, in some way, the highest act of human love, and the earthly origin of all human life, reflects the Divine?

It is like defending evolution. As imaginary it seems possible. But there is no any valid evidence. Why evolution did stop? There is no answer. Like that why just three gods? Could not God make more?

 

[hasantas]

Who claimed there is an equal and counterpart for God? Can you cite the post?

We do not ascribe Gender to God.
Referring to God as “father” does not mean we ascribe “male” to God.
He has attributes that we can best humanly describe as fatherly.

Father(God) is equal Son(human) and Son is equal Holy Spirit(angel) and Holy Spirit is equal Father! They act and run together. Why not just God? Jesus was a human not a god. Holy Spirit got form of a dove. Why do you not claim that God incarnated in an animal?

Why can’t you who are so rational and clever see the conflicts? Notice. These thoughts are not from scripture(God’s words) but from thoughts of human.

 

[PluniaZ]

It is like defending evolution. As imaginary it seems possible. But there is no any valid evidence. Why evolution did stop? There is no answer. Like that why just three gods? Could not God make more?

Christians do not believe in three gods. We believe in one God. The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God, not three gods.

Stop mischaracterizing Christianity. It does not lead to a productive discussion. How would you like it if we mischaracterized Islam, and repeatedly ignored you when you clarified your beliefs?

 

[hasantas]

Christians do not believe in three gods. We believe in one God. The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God, not three gods.

Stop mischaracterizing Christianity. It does not lead to a productive discussion. How would you like it if we mischaracterized Islam, and repeatedly ignored you when you clarified your beliefs?

Do three persons not mean three?

 

[PluniaZ]

Do three persons not mean three?

I have personally discussed this with you on other threads many times now. Jesus says “The Father and I are one.” The people who were speaking with Jesus face to face understood him perfectly well that he was claiming to be God, and attempted to stone him for blasphemy.

But we’ve already discussed this. Why do you pretend like we’ve never discussed this before, and repeat the same misrepresentations of Christian belief, over and over in every thread? How would you like it if I repeatedly said Muslims believe in two gods, because you believe both God and His Word are God?

 

[hasantas]

I have personally discussed this with you on other threads many times now. Jesus says “The Father and I are one.” The people who were speaking with Jesus face to face understood him perfectly well that he was claiming to be God, and attempted to stone him for blasphemy.

But we’ve already discussed this. Why do you pretend like we’ve never discussed this before, and repeat the same misrepresentations of Christian belief, over and over in every thread? How would you like it if I repeatedly said Muslims believe in two gods, because you believe both God and His Word are God?

I do not intend to attack Christian. I believe in Christ so by that manner I also can be regarded as Christian. I believe in Father as unique God. I believe in Jesus as prophet of Father. I believe in Holy Spirit as angel of revelation. I mean I believe in what you believe in as a bit differently.

I know you think God is one. Claiming that God have three personalities conflicts with oneness of God. Uniqueness of God is called Tawhid in Islam. And nearly 1/3 of Qur’an state that. I know it is said very clearly in both OT and NT that Lord is one. There is no any staement about three personalities in any scriptures.

I asked a clear question. Do not three persons mean three? If not then how? Answer?

 

[PluniaZ]

I do not intend to attack Christian. I believe in Christ so by that manner I also can be regarded as Christian. I believe in Father as unique God. I believe in Jesus as prophet of Father. I believe in Holy Spirit as angel of revelation. I mean I believe in what you believe in as a bit differently.

I know you think God is one. Claiming that God have three personalities conflicts with oneness of God. Uniqueness of God is called Tawhid in Islam. And nearly 1/3 of Qur’an state that. I know it is said very clearly in both OT and NT that Lord is one. There is no any staement about three personalities in any scriptures.

I asked a clear question. Do not three persons mean three? If not then how? Answer?

And I gave you a clear answer. Jesus said, “The Father and I are one.” Two persons, one God. And Jesus tells us the Holy Spirit “proceeds” from God. John 15:26. Nothing created can “proceed” from God - creation is made by God out of nothing. Therefore, there are three persons, and Jesus says they are one God.

Now you answer my question. You say God’s Word is God. How is that not two gods?

 

[hasantas]

And I gave you a clear answer. Jesus said, “The Father and I are one.” Two persons, one God. And Jesus tells us the Holy Spirit “proceeds” from God. John 15:26. Nothing created can “proceed” from God - creation is made by God out of nothing. Therefore, there are three persons, and Jesus says they are one God.

Now you answer my question. You say God’s Word is God. How is that not two gods?

Is three equal one?

Being important is personality. If there are three persons so there are three.

The word is God means God say be"word" and it is. The word is word of God. The word is not a person. And I interpret word is God according to Bible to explain that Jesus is not God. Otherwise there is no such thing in Islam.

 

[PluniaZ]

Is three equal one?

Being important is personality. If there are three persons so there are three.

The word is God means God say be"word" and it is. The word is word of God. The word is not a person. And I interpret word is God according to Bible to explain that Jesus is not God. Otherwise there is no such thing in Islam.

Jesus says they are one. John 10:30. Why are you arguing with Jesus?

Why are you hung up on the concept of “person”? What makes you think that the “person” of God the Father is anything like a human person? When the early church was trying to understand the relationship between the Father, the Word and the Spirit, they referred to each as a “hypostasis” which loosely translated could mean “something that has its own existence.”

It seems Islam agrees that the Word has its own existence. And because you say the Word is God, the Word has always existed. So it seems Islam believes in at least 2 hypostases - God, and God’s Word.

Now you would probably say that God and God’s Word are not “persons” in the human sense that each has its own thoughts, its own will, its own personality. Rather, you would probably say that God and God’s Word are identical in nature, that they have the very same will and power and all other attributes. That is what Christians believe about God, God’s Word and God’s Spirit - they are identical in essence, nature, will, power and every other respect. So it is not like 3 human persons sitting together, each with his own unique thoughts, desires, characteristics, etc. Rather, the Father, the Word and the Spirit are one in essence, identical in all respects save that the Word is begotten (an analogy would be spoken) by the Father, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father.

How is this different than Islam’s concept of God and the Word?

 

[rinnie]

I have always thought that there are striking similarities between the Trinity and the act of heterosexual sex.

Genesis 2:24 says:

Here, right at the beginning of the Bible, is the concept of multiple persons having one substance. Moreover, when husband and wife come together in the flesh, a third person, their child, is conceived. Could one say then, that at that moment of conception, there are three persons in one flesh?

I know evangelicals are big on comparing marriage to the Trinity (there is a huge debate right now among evangelicals about whether God the Son is subordinate to God the Father in authority because God the Son is analogous to the wife in marriage, and they say the wife should be subordinate to her husband, but that’s another topic) … but I haven’t seen much about this analogy in the writings of Catholic saints. Below are two examples where this idea is hinted at, but not really explicit:

Saint John of Damascus says:

Saint Thomas Aquinas says:

That last italicized portion from Aquinas makes me wonder if the sex analogy for the Trinity is frowned upon among Catholics.

Thoughts?

no none at all. The Father and Son and Holy Spirit are all One God. The wife, the husband and the child are not one in being with one another.

 

[rinnie]

Is three equal one?

Being important is personality. If there are three persons so there are three.

The word is God means God say be"word" and it is. The word is word of God. The word is not a person. And I interpret word is God according to Bible to explain that Jesus is not God. Otherwise there is no such thing in Islam.

If you read the Bible then you will read Jesus is the word become flesh which is God.

John l:14

 

[PluniaZ]

no none at all. The Father and Son and Holy Spirit are all One God. The wife, the husband and the child are not one in being with one another.

Then how do you respond to this:

Talk #9 speaks about this. Nov 14 1979. It is a them that runs throughout though.
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM
Christopher West distills it like this:
Quote:
THE POPE’S THESIS

The Pope’s thesis, if we let it sink in, is sure to revolutionize the way we understand the human body and sexuality. “The body, and it alone,” John Paul says, “ is capable of making visible what is invisible, the spiritual and divine. It was created to transfer into the visible reality of the world, the invisible mystery hidden in God from time immemorial, and thus to be a sign of it” (Feb 20, 1980).
A mouthful of scholarly verbiage, I know. What does it mean? As physical, bodily creatures we simply cannot see God. He’s pure Spirit. But God wanted to make his mystery visible to us so he stamped it into our bodies by creating us as male and female in his own image (Gn 1:27).
The function of this image is to reflect the Trinity, “an inscrutable divine communion of [three] Persons” (Nov 14, 1979). Thus, in a dramatic development of Catholic thought, John Paul concludes that “man became the ‘image and likeness’ of God not only through his own humanity, but also through the communion of persons which man and woman form right from the beginning.” And, the Pope adds, “On all of this, right from ‘the beginning,’ there descended the blessing of fertility linked with human procreation” (ibid).
The body has a “nuptial meaning” because it reveals man and woman’s call to become a gift for one another, a gift fully realized in their “one flesh” union. The body also has a “generative meaning” that (God willing) brings a “third” into the world through their communion. In this way, marriage constitutes a “primordial sacrament” understood as a sign that truly communicates the mystery of God’s Trinitarian life and love to husband and wife – and through them to their children, and through the family to the whole world.

 

[goout]

no none at all. The Father and Son and Holy Spirit are all One God. The wife, the husband and the child are not one in being with one another.

The OP’s question is about the reflection of the Trinity, not whether the two realities are the same.

 

[rinnie]

Then how do you respond to this:

The Pope is just comparing what marriage is between 2 people and how the 3 become one as a family. I do not believe its saying what you are trying to make it say.

The Trinity always existed. The Child came from the Father and Mother.

I believe the Pope was just explaining the way marriage unites people. The Trinity is more reflected in the Family not sex.

 

[PluniaZ]

The Pope is just comparing what marriage is between 2 people and how the 3 become one as a family. I do not believe its saying what you are trying to make it say.

The Trinity always existed. The Child came from the Father and Mother.

I believe the Pope was just explaining the way marriage unites people. The Trinity is more reflected in the Family not sex.

I’m not trying to make it say anything. I’m just asking if the Trinity is reflected, in some sacramental way, through sex. Sex and the family can basically be understood as synonyms here.

 

[rinnie]

I’m not trying to make it say anything. I’m just asking if the Trinity is reflected, in some sacramental way, through sex. Sex and the family can basically be understood as synonyms here.

If you keep it in the context of what the Pope is saying. But I still believe it is reflected in the family not through sex. You can have sex without family. I just it would be better if you said the Trinity could be reflected through the family. But the reflection is the love of one another. Just my opinion.

 

[goout]

I’m not trying to make it say anything. I’m just asking if the Trinity is reflected, in some sacramental way, through sex. Sex and the family can basically be understood as synonyms here.

Yes, as referenced.
JP2 refers to marriage as the primordial sacrament. The Church’s teaching on sexuality is in the context of the conjugal act, which is synonymous with marriage.