Is the type of worship an obstacle to people considering the Catholic Church?

[vz71]

By this I mean, liturgy and fixed worship practices as opposed to a non-liturgical style.

I don’t think this question has ever been asked before.

My two cents.
Many pentecostal find it to be too rigid.

From early on many come to value high emotional states over liturgical practice.

 

[Church_Militant]

My two cents.
Many pentecostal find it to be too rigid.

From early on many come to value high emotional states over liturgical practice.

Yep and that emotionalism is characterized by the oft repeated phrase, “You can feel the Holy Spirit moving…” which is nowhere found in the Word of God. When God’s Spirit moves it’s not “felt” it’s seen. Scriptural examples are all over the place in the Bible.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[susanlo]

St. Justin Martyr described there, in a very brief summary, the Roman liturgy, and the mass today follows the same structure.

We still celebrate Mass the same way today. Very little has changed

I guess, as I look in the dictionary, liturgy can have different definitions. It can mean “a form of public worship,” and therefore the First Apology does describe a liturgy. By that definition a non-denominational public worship is a liturgy as well. What I often think of with liturgy is reading or reciting fixed passages as a group. This is what I see no evidence of in the First Apology. Actually, the Christian worship described sounds a lot like my non-denominational church except we have singing and sometimes the order of the events is different. I think just about all Christians across the world would be able to say that Chapter 67 of the First Apology sounds just like their worship service as well.

 

[JustaServant]

Did Justin Martyr write a fixed liturgy? Or write about a fixed liturgy? I am not aware of any liturgy from this time period. In his First Apology Chapter 67 he writes that weekly worship includes:

newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

It sounds like they read Scripture, had a sermon/instruction, prayer, Eucharist and offering for those in the congregation in need. I don’t really see where they had readings or recitations of liturgies of any type.

I always thought formal structured liturgy started a few centuries into Christianity, but I really don’t know a lot about how liturgy got started.

Hi Susan.
You might want to look into Jewish worship practices.
In fact, as far as I know, ALL forms of worship in the ancient world were liturgical in nature, even pagan.
Anyway, read Justin’s account of how the early Church worshipped, written less than 100 years after the Resurrection. It’s almost identical to modern Catholic worship.

 

[JustaServant]

Exactly correct. Perhaps Susan would benefit from a careful reading of Dr. Edward Sri’s study A Biblical Walk Through the Mass.

Also she might do well to actually begin to attend Mass.

As for those who gravitate towards the happy clappy “contemporary” religious services they tend to forget that the music they are so into is more like the secular world’s music. Not all that surprising since some early n-C hymns were actually set to the popular tunes of their day.

If, as she cites Justin Martyr, they did indeed celebrate the Eucharist at every Mass then one has to conclude that many modern n-Cs do not do so because they have no Eucharist and their preachers would never do it because it would be “too Catholic”. (Not to mention being without the faculties to do so)

After all my years among various n-Cs I love and deeply appreciate the Mass in our parish. I get a great deal out of it because I focus upon what is going on and listen carefully to the readings, homily, and the Eucharistic prayers. It’s one of the great things about having my own missal.

Is this a hindrance to some people? Perhaps…but if it was good enough for the early church then it’s good enough for me.

Those Catholics who I have known (myself included) who did not understand or appreciate the Mass were by and large grossly ignorant and/or incapable of properly informing themselves about their faith. Some are blessed (like me) to come to a conversion and cure that deficiency…sadly some are not.

 

[susanlo]

Hi Susan.
You might want to look into Jewish worship practices.
In fact, as far as I know, ALL forms of worship in the ancient world were liturgical in nature, even pagan.
Anyway, read Justin’s account of how the early Church worshipped, written less than 100 years after the Resurrection. It’s almost identical to modern Catholic worship.

Where do I find Justin’s account of the worship in the early Church? What writing (besides the First Apology) is it in?

 

[JustaServant]

My two cents.
Many pentecostal find it to be too rigid.

From early on many come to value high emotional states over liturgical practice.

Perhaps the Age of ‘Enlightenment’ and ‘Romanticism’ played a large part in doing away with liturgical practices?
On the other hand Pentecostal worship does have a fixed structure of sorts, albeit loosely.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Exactly correct. Perhaps Susan would benefit from a careful reading of Dr. Edward Sri’s study A Biblical Walk Through the Mass.

Also she might do well to actually begin to attend Mass.

As for those who gravitate towards the happy clappy “contemporary” religious services they tend to forget that the music they are so into is more like the secular world’s music. Not all that surprising since some early n-C hymns were actually set to the popular tunes of their day.

If, as she cites Justin Martyr, they did indeed celebrate the Eucharist at every Mass then one has to conclude that many modern n-Cs do not do so because they have no Eucharist and their preachers would never do it because it would be “too Catholic”. (Not to mention being without the faculties to do so)

After all my years among various n-Cs I love and deeply appreciate the Mass in our parish. I get a great deal out of it because I focus upon what is going on and listen carefully to the readings, homily, and the Eucharistic prayers. It’s one of the great things about having my own missal.

Is this a hindrance to some people? Perhaps…but if it was good enough for the early church then it’s good enough for me.

Those Catholics who I have known (myself included) who did not understand or appreciate the Mass were by and large grossly ignorant and/or incapable of properly informing themselves about their faith. Some are blessed (like me) to come to a conversion and cure that deficiency…sadly some are not.

Good post.

I have heard Protestants say the Mass is unbiblical and watered down Christianity, etc, etc. Some called it mind numbing rituals, even.

That’s interesting because even as a fundamentalist, I saw certain aspects of the bible in the Mass when i first attended.

If you are a protestant then Malachi is the last book of your OT and so you believe this was the last time God spoke prior to what we find in the Gospels. And this passage is prophetic passage that is only fulfilled in apostolic Churches:

Malachi 1:11King James Version (KJV)

11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

Masses are occurring with incense and a pure offering from sun up to sun down in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The rest of the details such as exact wording of the prayers and the motions occurring revolve around said pure offering.

The focus at Mass is on Jesus Christ 100% of the time. It’s not a hit or miss thing as in other places. Thanks be to God.

 

[Padres1969]

Good post.

I have heard Protestants say the Mass is unbiblical and watered down Christianity, etc, etc. Some called it mind numbing rituals, even.

That’s interesting because even as a fundamentalist, I saw certain aspects of the bible in the Mass when i first attended.

If you are a protestant then Malachi is the last book of your OT and so you believe this was the last time God spoke prior to what we find in the Gospels. And this passage is prophetic passage that is only fulfilled in apostolic Churches:

Masses are occurring with incense and a pure offering from sun up to sun down in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The rest of the details such as exact wording of the prayers and the motions occurring revolve around said pure offering.

The focus at Mass is on Jesus Christ 100% of the time. It’s not a hit or miss thing as in other places. Thanks be to God.

One thing I’ve never understood are those that say mass be it Catholic or Anglican, is unbiblical. Is not some 80% of the mass, give or take, straight from the scriptures?

 

[fred_conty]

Is the type of worship an obstacle to people considering the Catholic Church?

I don’t know whether most think of it as worship but rather a service.
A service to move and help them to feel close to God. The emphasis being on the talk which should captivate them, and the church selection is often based on this, and also the convenience of a nearby church.

Worship is not really the most important idea. And so in some churchs there are forms of intertainment or amusement to capture an audience.

But the central activity in the Catholic Mass is worship, the offering of Jesus Christ up to the Father, which is not done nor understood in many other churches.

The phrase “Is the type of worship an obstacle to people considering the Catholic Church?” I would change to “Is the type of service an obstacle to people considering the Catholic Church?”

If Worship is sought, then the Catholic worship cannot be surpassed … that of offering Jesus Christ to the Father.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

One thing I’ve never understood are those that say mass be it Catholic or Anglican, is unbiblical. Is not some 80% of the mass, give or take, straight from the scriptures?

Yeah, I’d say roughly that number.

And all the motions have some sort of relevance to us in our Christian faith. Start with the procession which represents the walk of our Christian life…coming out of the womb…taking life’s journey till we reach the end, then end up at the feet of Jesus Christ.

And Ironically I’ve always heard more scripture in Mass than in fundamentalist Churches where everybody is loaded up with their own bibles and highlighters by their side Go figure

 

[Padres1969]

Yeah, I’d say roughly that number.

And all the motions have some sort of relevance to us in our Christian faith. Start with the procession which represents the walk of our Christian life…coming out of the womb…taking life’s journey till we reach the end, then end up at the feet of Jesus Christ.

And Ironically I’ve always heard more scripture in Mass than in fundamentalist Churches where everybody is loaded up with their own bibles and highlighters by their side Go figure

I’ve always found that contrast between Liturgical and non-Liturgical Churches to be interesting. Liturgical Churches I’ve been to, Catholic or otherwise, always have more utilization of the scriptures than the non-liturgical Churches. Yet the latter are almost solely focused on the scriptures. It’s an interesting conundrum.

 

[Michael68]

Yeah, I’d say roughly that number.

And all the motions have some sort of relevance to us in our Christian faith. Start with the procession which represents the walk of our Christian life…coming out of the womb…taking life’s journey till we reach the end, then end up at the feet of Jesus Christ.

And Ironically I’ve always heard more scripture in Mass than in fundamentalisthurches where everybody is loaded up with their own bibles and highlighters by their side Go figure

Yes, every Sunday we have a reading from Psalms, the OT, the Epistles, and the Gospels. If you attend Mass regularly you will have almost the whole Bible in 3yrs.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I’ve always found that contrast between Liturgical and non-Liturgical Churches to be interesting. Liturgical Churches I’ve been to, Catholic or otherwise, always have more utilization of the scriptures than the non-liturgical Churches. Yet the latter are almost solely focused on the scriptures. It’s an interesting conundrum.

Yes, every Sunday we have a reading from Psalms, the OT, the Epistles, and the Gospels. If you attend Mass regularly you will have almost the whole Bible in 3yrs.

Yes, it’s criticized by non-liturgical folks because the method is not their cup of tea. They’d rather sit down and listen to a lecture on a entire parable then hear bits and pieces of different passages. And then if they are very fundamental the last thing they want to hear about is feast days for Saint ____(enter a name) which is sometimes discussed in the Homilies.

 

[Church_Militant]

Good post.

I have heard Protestants say the Mass is unbiblical and watered down Christianity, etc, etc. Some called it mind numbing rituals, even.

That’s interesting because even as a fundamentalist, I saw certain aspects of the bible in the Mass when I first attended.

If you are a protestant then Malachi is the last book of your OT and so you believe this was the last time God spoke prior to what we find in the Gospels. And this passage is prophetic passage that is only fulfilled in apostolic Churches:

Masses are occurring with incense and a pure offering from sun up to sun down in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The rest of the details such as exact wording of the prayers and the motions occurring revolve around said pure offering.

The focus at Mass is on Jesus Christ 100% of the time. It’s not a hit or miss thing as in other places. Thanks be to God.

Very well said.

One thing I’ve never understood are those that say mass be it Catholic or Anglican, is unbiblical. Is not some 80% of the mass, give or take, straight from the scriptures?

I would actually venture that it is much greater than that. I highly recommend Dr. Sri’s excellent book and course linked above. A bunch of us took it in our parish and then urged our RCIA director to incorporate it into RCIA. It’s that good!

If Worship is sought, then the Catholic worship cannot be surpassed … that of offering Jesus Christ to the Father.

I couldn’t agree more. I sometimes think of n-C services compared with the Mass to going to a fancy restaurant, paying the tab, and the getting only imaginary food. Why would I want to go away hungry after having Mass available to me?

Yeah, I’d say roughly that number.

And all the motions have some sort of relevance to us in our Christian faith.

Dr. Sri gets into all of this and it’s way more than you realize. By all means check it out.

Yes, it’s criticized by non-liturgical folks because the method is not their cup of tea. They’d rather sit down and listen to a lecture on a entire parable then hear bits and pieces of different passages. And then if they are very fundamental the last thing they want to hear about is feast days for Saint ____(enter a name) which is sometimes discussed in the Homilies.

Been there and done that. Sadly (and confusing) that people who profess to be so heavily into the Bible do not feel that they can let it stand on its own. If it truly is “a two edged sword” then why cannot these readings speak for themselves? I’m not saying that we Catholics are Bible only…by no means, but at least we hear it and have it explained and applied to our lives at Mass.

Moreover, those who have no information on all the saints who have gone before us have been robbed of the richness of authentic Christian history and its vast wisdom and inspiration. For example…so many n-Cs embrace “the rapture” and cling to that misguided hope of rescue before the tribulation (something not promised in the New Testament) instead of knowing that we have a real connection to early church martyrs (and even post reformation ones and even in WWII) who endured to the end and should inspire us to be prepared to do likewise.

A sad deficiency…

 

[Reuben_J]

By this I mean, liturgy and fixed worship practices as opposed to a non-liturgical style.

I don’t think this question has ever been asked before.

As a cradle Catholic, I can’t answer the question from experience, since I have none. However, from the testimonies of some learned Protestants converted to Catholicism, like Scott Hann, Catholic worship, that is the mass, seemed to be the biggest factor for him to swim the River Tiber. He found truth, history and Biblical foundation in the mass.

So for some, it is not the type of worship but rather, they found the truth there. Some prefer outward appearance of worship, others the profound meaning in it.