Is the type of worship an obstacle to people considering the Catholic Church?

[SyroMalankara]

What or who is being “worshipped” in those photos?

“The word is derived from the Old English weorþscipe, meaning worship, honour shown to an object,[1] which has been etymologised as “worthiness or worth-ship”—to give, at its simplest, worth to something.”

What exactly are the churches in those photographs giving “worth” to, different from or even in a different manner than secular society? It seems to me, even though unrecognized by the participants, that there is at least veneration being given here, if not outright adoration.

 

[rcwitness]

What has started to appeal to me in the liturgical style is the fact that people are indeed joined together all over doing the same or similar things; take advent or lent for example. I can see the power in that and how it can join individuals into one community or body. I have issues with many free flowing prayer styles (such as the “I’m going to preach to the audience while I’m praying” issue), and have never liked praying in public in the free form style, so I’m starting to value communal prayers.

Interesting observation. I know just what you mean.

Liturgy = public worship

Pulic worship is communal

 

[Son_of_Niall]

What or who is being “worshipped” in those photos?

“The word is derived from the Old English weorþscipe, meaning worship, honour shown to an object,[1] which has been etymologised as “worthiness or worth-ship”—to give, at its simplest, worth to something.”

What exactly are the churches in those photographs giving “worth” to, different from or even in a different manner than secular society? It seems to me, even though unrecognized by the participants, that there is at least veneration being given here, if not outright adoration.

In fairness those are the exception and not the rule. Maybe some mega-church entertainment center does that. Most Protestant churches do not.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

I have attended both Protestant services and Catholic Mass for almost 15 years. The type of worship, when done poorly, is definitely an obstacle. All worship should have a sense of continuity to it. This is the main focus of a Protestant service IMHO - especially non-denom services. A particular emphasis is placed on the music (my involvement) and the “transition points” and socializing and ministries. The homilies are generally longer and often better developed, but I’ve found them lacking much serious depth given the amount of time they spend on them and, of course, I find they don’t reflect the full truth of Scripture most of the time.
The Mass needs to done in such a way that the Priest’s prayers, the music and the Homily form a unity of prayer and worship. Unfortunately the Mass in my parish is so disjointed - it’s virtually impossible to remain in a state of ongoing prayer or worship. If the homily happens to be decent (rare) it should challenge you somehow, or inspire you. It should cause you to reflect spiritually and to listen for God’s nudging in your heart/conscience. It should help you to prepare to receive Christ in the Eucharist. This takes a good homily and a little time for reflection. Once this period of silence is done - and it need only be a minute or so of pure silence, then the Priest should stand, offer a prayer of gratitude for hearing God’s word, acknowledgement of our need to grow in holiness in area xyz that corresponds to the readings/homily, acknowledgement of our need for God’s help and our desire to live holier lives and to reaffirm our faith together in the Creed ( or something along those lines). The communal prayer ties the readings and homily and personal reflection time together while also bringing them an end and directs (ie transitions) to the next event: the Creed. It’s called a transition and it’s needed to provide communal spiritual unity and continuity. Unfortunately that never happens at our Mass. When the homily is finished - and I’m trying to absorb, reflect and listen for God’s prompting - the Priest just abruptly stands up and starts reading the Creed from a piece of paper. Truly a terrible transition that simply says “We do this now because this is what we do now.” The reflection following the Homily is a deeply personal and interior event, while the Creed is largely communal and external. Anyone with the slightest sense of spirituality and a decent prayer life recognizes this. But week after week, year after year we get this abrupt, irreverent and disjointed approach. Almost as good are the announcements immediately following Communion. That’s just great - here I am trying to pour my heart out to Christ and some idiot is going to read the bulletin - that everyone can get immediately after Mass for free - out loud. I’ll just end it here without getting into how bad the music is, how difficult it is to find good Catholic prayer groups or study groups etc etc…

Blessings

How does this answer the OPs question?
All you’re doing is complaining about your local parish.

 

[Padres1969]

In fairness those are the exception and not the rule. Maybe some mega-church entertainment center does that. Most Protestant churches do not.

No not most Protestant Churches. But some variant on that is common in Non-Denom churches. Granted most don’t have boxing matches or NFL stars show up. But much of the rest is very common.

 

[rcwitness]

Rock concerts…

I say do them outside the Liturgy of the Mass. I’m all for events in our Parishes, but it should be separate.

… maybe all of the bells and wistless of a Easter Mass are similar? I don’t know. I just think it is gimmicks that appeal to sensuality and personalities. I don’t want a performance. And I LOVE concerts!

 

[Philthy]

How does this answer the OPs question?
All you’re doing is complaining about your local parish.

I thought I addressed the OP fairly directly by contrasting 2 “types” of worship: protestant, nondenom and Catholic. The thrust of my post was that a Catholic Mass can be an obstacle to those considering the CC because in many parishes the Mass is done in a disjointed, rote fashion that inhibits entering into genuine worship.

Blessings!

 

[JustaServant]

I thought I addressed the OP fairly directly by contrasting 2 “types” of worship: protestant, nondenom and Catholic. The thrust of my post was that a Catholic Mass can be an obstacle to those considering the CC because in many parishes the Mass is done in a disjointed, rote fashion that inhibits entering into genuine worship.

Blessings!

Well actually, no it doesn’t.
But I’m used to seeing threads hijacked by people who:
A. Want to complain about Protestants, or
B. Want to complain about Catholics.
Instead of staying focused on the original question. Complaining about your local parish or other parishes ‘disjointed, rote, fashion’ does nothing to add to the conversation.
But like I said I’ve gotten used to that.

 

[Michael68]

Well actually, no it doesn’t.
But I’m used to seeing threads hijacked by people who:
A. Want to complain about Protestants, or
B. Want to complain about Catholics.
Instead of staying focused on the original question. Complaining about your local parish or other parishes ‘disjointed, rote, fashion’ does nothing to add to the conversation.
But like I said I’ve gotten used to that.

How does this help the OP?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

**Moved to Apologetics for wider answers.
And uh…try to stay on topic. **

 

[JustaServant]

How does this help the OP?

You obviously never checked post #1 did you?

 

[Padres1969]

Rock concerts…

I say do them outside the Liturgy of the Mass. I’m all for events in our Parishes, but it should be separate.

… maybe all of the bells and wistless of a Easter Mass are similar? I don’t know. I just think it is gimmicks that appeal to sensuality and personalities. I don’t want a performance. And I LOVE concerts!

That’s the difference though, for these non-denom churches in particular, a little performance or famous or semi-famous guest speaker don’t have to be separate from their core worship service. They can easily be incorporated in. Unlike liturgical churches they don’t have a set liturgy that defines what their core service/mass is every week and are able to modify their core services/mass quite extensively as a result.

That’s not to say most liturgical churches would want to modify their liturgies in such a manner. But in some ways it can be an impediment to broadening appeal for liturgical churches. And it can also make liturgical churches seem stodgy or rigid for those coming from outside Christianity or from those non-liturgical traditions for some who are first approaching them (and who either don’t have an understanding of the history behind the liturgy, or simply don’t care).

 

[JustaServant]

That’s the difference though, for these non-denom churches in particular, a little performance or famous or semi-famous guest speaker don’t have to be separate from their core worship service. They can easily be incorporated in. Unlike liturgical churches they don’t have a set liturgy that defines what their core service/mass is every week and are able to modify their core services/mass quite extensively as a result.

That’s not to say most liturgical churches would want to modify their liturgies in such a manner. But in some ways it can be an impediment to broadening appeal for liturgical churches. And it can also make liturgical churches seem stodgy or rigid for those coming from outside Christianity or from those non-liturgical traditions for some who are first approaching them (and who either don’t have an understanding of the history behind the liturgy, or simply don’t care).

One of the best explanations I ever heard concerning liturgy came from an Episcopal priest who simply stated, worship without liturgy is like a train without rails. We have whole populations of Christians who should be taught what liturgy is and the importance of it. I think if we explained to non-liturgical Christians what we are doing, it might take away the fear of it.

 

[Venerabilis]

Honestly, if it is a problem for an inquirer, then just like any other problem it can be solved in one of two ways:

1. Show the person the history of fixed liturgies, from St. Justin Martyr all the way up through the History.
2. Appeal to the fact that whatever the Church has ordained, is bound as a loving discipline of the Church. Any problem that a genuine inquirer might have with questions other than the Petrine Ministry and the Church’s authority can be basically boiled down to those two things.

As long as we are able to show the historical basis for authority in the Church’s discipline of worship, we need not worry about how people react to anything. If they believe in a Church with authority, they will conform to the Mass; if not, they need not become Catholic.

A third option, of course, for those still put off by formal liturgy, would be to suggest that they join Catholic charismatics or a prayer group outside Mass, and pray ex tempore in that way.

Really, nothing is lost in Catholicism. We’re all so caught up in our ideas of what should be that we don’t simply live what is.

 

[steve_b]

By this I mean, liturgy and fixed worship practices as opposed to a non-liturgical style.

I don’t think this question has ever been asked before.

Consider the following #4

 

[susanlo]

Honestly, if it is a problem for an inquirer, then just like any other problem it can be solved in one of two ways:

1. Show the person the history of fixed liturgies, from St. Justin Martyr all the way up through the History.
2. Appeal to the fact that whatever the Church has ordained, is bound as a loving discipline of the Church. Any problem that a genuine inquirer might have with questions other than the Petrine Ministry and the Church’s authority can be basically boiled down to those two things.

As long as we are able to show the historical basis for authority in the Church’s discipline of worship, we need not worry about how people react to anything. If they believe in a Church with authority, they will conform to the Mass; if not, they need not become Catholic.

A third option, of course, for those still put off by formal liturgy, would be to suggest that they join Catholic charismatics or a prayer group outside Mass, and pray ex tempore in that way.

Really, nothing is lost in Catholicism. We’re all so caught up in our ideas of what should be that we don’t simply live what is.

Did Justin Martyr write a fixed liturgy? Or write about a fixed liturgy? I am not aware of any liturgy from this time period. In his First Apology Chapter 67 he writes that weekly worship includes:

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

It sounds like they read Scripture, had a sermon/instruction, prayer, Eucharist and offering for those in the congregation in need. I don’t really see where they had readings or recitations of liturgies of any type.

I always thought formal structured liturgy started a few centuries into Christianity, but I really don’t know a lot about how liturgy got started.

 

[Philthy]

Well actually, no it doesn’t.
But I’m used to seeing threads hijacked by people who:
A. Want to complain about Protestants, or
B. Want to complain about Catholics.
Instead of staying focused on the original question. Complaining about your local parish or other parishes ‘disjointed, rote, fashion’ does nothing to add to the conversation.
But like I said I’ve gotten used to that.
I’m guessing I didn’t understand the OP. Perhaps if you could articulate specifically what the phrase “the type of worship” means and how anyone can comment on it apart from personal experience then perhaps I’d understand it better. I’m not actually asking you to do that however - the OP is - IMHO - a largely meaningless question that I should not have even bothered trying to answer.
My answer should have been something briefer: that liturgical worship per se is not an obstacle but that the specific experience that one has of liturgical worship (ie disjointed, poor homily, etc) can be an obstacle, and a significant one. Would that have been better in your opinion? If so, please accept my apology for having led you to believe that I had “hijacked” the thread since that has been your experience with other people and I should have somehow known better. I had no intention of hijacking the thread - that’s for people who have nothing better to do with their time - that’s not me - I just stopped in for a brief perusal of CA since I haven’t been here in a bit.
Please don’t feel the need to publicly respond to this post as it might perpetuate your concern of the thread being hijacked - you can PM me if you wish.

Blessings!

 

[Wesrock]

Did Justin Martyr write a fixed liturgy? Or write about a fixed liturgy? I am not aware of any liturgy from this time period. In his First Apology Chapter 67 he writes that weekly worship includes:

newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

It sounds like they read Scripture, had a sermon/instruction, prayer, Eucharist and offering for those in the congregation in need. I don’t really see where they had readings or recitations of liturgies of any type.

I always thought formal structured liturgy started a few centuries into Christianity, but I really don’t know a lot about how liturgy got started.

St. Justin Martyr described there, in a very brief summary, the Roman liturgy, and the mass today follows the same structure.

 

[Michael68]

Did Justin Martyr write a fixed liturgy? Or write about a fixed liturgy? I am not aware of any liturgy from this time period. In his First Apology Chapter 67 he writes that weekly worship includes:

newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

It sounds like they read Scripture, had a sermon/instruction, prayer, Eucharist and offering for those in the congregation in need. I don’t really see where they had readings or recitations of liturgies of any type.

I always thought formal structured liturgy started a few centuries into Christianity, but I really don’t know a lot about how liturgy got started.

We still celebrate Mass the same way today. Very little has changed

 

[Church_Militant]

St. Justin Martyr described there, in a very brief summary, the Roman liturgy, and the mass today follows the same structure.

We still celebrate Mass the same way today. Very little has changed

Exactly correct. Perhaps Susan would benefit from a careful reading of Dr. Edward Sri’s study A Biblical Walk Through the Mass.

Also she might do well to actually begin to attend Mass.

As for those who gravitate towards the happy clappy “contemporary” religious services they tend to forget that the music they are so into is more like the secular world’s music. Not all that surprising since some early n-C hymns were actually set to the popular tunes of their day.

If, as she cites Justin Martyr, they did indeed celebrate the Eucharist at every Mass then one has to conclude that many modern n-Cs do not do so because they have no Eucharist and their preachers would never do it because it would be “too Catholic”. (Not to mention being without the faculties to do so)

After all my years among various n-Cs I love and deeply appreciate the Mass in our parish. I get a great deal out of it because I focus upon what is going on and listen carefully to the readings, homily, and the Eucharistic prayers. It’s one of the great things about having my own missal.

Is this a hindrance to some people? Perhaps…but if it was good enough for the early church then it’s good enough for me.

Those Catholics who I have known (myself included) who did not understand or appreciate the Mass were by and large grossly ignorant and/or incapable of properly informing themselves about their faith. Some are blessed (like me) to come to a conversion and cure that deficiency…sadly some are not.