Is the unpopular opinion always considered "judging"?

[Mystical_Seeker]

No, you are right that people label you as judgmental. I suppose I was responding to those who judge Bruce Jenner for having done so.

Plus I made the mistake of replying to a post before realizing there were others in between so now I should scroll up to see what relevance I may have missed.

Hahaha ego is so funny I am preaching about it in its name and I’m the worst.

Someone judges Caitlyn/Bruce.

Someone judges someone for judging.

I judge them ALL … Bwahahahaha!!!

OK you may ignore anything I’ve written and it’s OK. You don’t have to respond to my ego any more than I may seem to think I have to yours.

We’re all sinners – let’s just quit picking over whose are worse, or at least trying to outguess what God thinks about them. After all – look what He did to Job!

 

[KEP1983]

To say that he is a sinner because of it is not my job nor yours. We can say that we believe such action is wrong, but that doesn’t automagically make the other person a sinner.

CCC 1861:
However, although **we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, **we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

If we could make a “right judgment” about others based on their “outward behavior” then God could let us to do all the judging and not bother to do it Himself.

1 Cor 6:2-3: " do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!"

 

[eightydeuce82]

His name was Bruce. If he changes it legally, then you should call him by his legal name or you’re wrong. Either way if you call him what you wish, you are making things up. God did not make him “Bruce” so quit lying that he was “made” Bruce so you “must” call him that way. Did you examine the birth certificate? Did you inspire the parents to name him Bruce? Did you command them to? Did God give you a stone tablet telling you his name? How do you know his name isn’t really Stephen. Quit making foolish statements about things you don’t know unless you’ve done the research. Show me the birth certificate if you wish, but you’re still wrong the God made him “Bruce”.

Either that or to be consistent you’ll have to call every person by their birth certificate name… do not call them what they ask but do research and if they changed their name with marriage you must never call them by the new name either. This is the same logic by which you insist on calling Caitlyn, “Bruce”. Or just nostalgia. Or you are a narrow minded fool even when you are half right you must add in the other half too so your ego can “one-up” the truth like a fisherman tale about the one that got away.

You may consider him a man; I can certainly support that. Calling a person by any name other than what they request you to refer to them as is rude, period. :tsktsk:

Would you insist on calling someone Bartholomew, after they say “please call me Bart?” You should, if you are consistent and have reason to suspect that is their “real” name. Show everybody how smart you are that you know their name better than they do.

You know I have seen many post you have made over multiple threads and you sure have some pretty weird ideas for someone who identifies as catholic.

God made him Bruce (a man) Because he’s disordered he chose to defy gods will and become a woman. God gave him a penis and a mans body his disorder gave him the idea that it would be ok to change this. Its that simple. So yes it was Gods will that he be Bruce the man.

 

[eightydeuce82]

Hahaha ego is so funny I am preaching about it in its name and I’m the worst.

Someone judges Caitlyn/Bruce.

Someone judges someone for judging.

I judge them ALL … Bwahahahaha!!!

OK you may ignore anything I’ve written and it’s OK. You don’t have to respond to my ego any more than I may seem to think I have to yours.

We’re all sinners – let’s just quit picking over whose are worse, or at least trying to outguess what God thinks about them. After all – look what He did to Job!

Yes we are all sinners BUT were all NOT on the world stage In clear view of everyone doing things that society now finds completely acceptable. That is the difference. Scandal. We all sin yes we don’t all sin in front of the world embrace it and live it while the world claps and pats us on the back. This is dangerous and is what is destroying this world.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

You know I have seen many post you have made over multiple threads and you sure have some pretty weird ideas for someone who identifies as catholic.

What are you referring to? The fact that I defer to the teachings of the Church that say once baptized or accepted into the faith, one is always Catholic until they die? If that’s what you mean, is it weird to actually go by the standard implied by the “Religious Badge” you wear. Tell me you are Catholic and that by Catholic teachings, this or that person is “not really Catholic” then it is absolutely astounding – it would be laughable if it weren’t such a serious problem that those loudest about being Catholic seem to use Catholic teachings only when it suits their pride. As soon as they have to admit that they are in the “same group of people” as certain sinners whose sins they dislike, they try to use ingroup/outgroup mentality to distance themselves because they invent versions of Catholic teachings with no apparent intent to conform their thinking to teachings. Rather we just claim that whatever we want the teachings to be, they are.

Is that what you meant? Or did you think I had some OTHER weird ideas except exposing Catholic hypocrites who use the word as a tool for pride building and for touting of group identity (that Jesus repeatedly tried to teach us was flawed thinking), as opposed to actually transforming one’s life and thinking in the light of truth that they are wrong?

God made him Bruce (a man) Because he’s disordered he chose to defy gods will and become a woman. God gave him a penis and a mans body his disorder gave him the idea that it would be ok to change this. Its that simple. So yes it was Gods will that he be Bruce the man.

You make these assumptions. Have you personally inspected or read the medical reports of this man? How do you know he even exists – have you ever seen him in person?

Being a Christian means more than publicly denouncing those sinners whose sins we find more offensive than our own. In fact, it means quite the opposite.

But that’s not news. Ever since Jesus’s day, the proud have used the sexual outcasts such as prostitutes and adulterers, as their basis of negative comparison. This keeps the cycle of sin well fed. Funny, then He compared the hearts and behavior of Church leaders unfavorably to the hearts of those “publicly known as sinners,” for their public judgment and denouncement. I’m just echoing His sentiments in today’s context.

That’s why I recommended Father Barron’s series on the seven deadly sins. For a suggested donation of $3.50 or so, you could have some idea about sin that would help you understand why I say what I’m saying. Since you think my ideas are “weird” then tell Fr. Barron (at whose seminary my son will study starting this fall since he graduated from pre-theology at another seminary this year) that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about regarding the relative severity of sins. If you can’t afford the CD, send me the contact information for your parish and I will be happy to purchase few copies and have them delivered to the Church office with a message explaining they will be picked up, so that you may receive these teachings at no charge, and remain anonymous from me. I will pay money to help shed light on this, if you would rather know than continue without knowing.

If you think it’s absurd that pride is a more foundational sin than lust, for example, then you just may be part of the problem all the while selling yourself as the solution.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Yes we are all sinners BUT were all NOT on the world stage In clear view of everyone doing things that society now finds completely acceptable. That is the difference. Scandal. We all sin yes we don’t all sin in front of the world embrace it and live it while the world claps and pats us on the back. This is dangerous and is what is destroying this world.

Oh, yes, there is always an excuse why we are superior to others and why we should judge them. Like I say, Catholic and dare I say most Christians seem to have a serious problem even entertaining the concept of “not judging” because “do not judge” is hard to distinguish from “it is our duty to judge the sins of others”. Maybe the problem is that we seem to think our celebrities are supposed to be lifestyle models for us.

Model Jesus, and you will quit accusing the celebrities for your own sins. They are well known so we follow them as role models? And when they fall from grace we are angry because why? We invested pride in believing they are pure? Doubtful, I’d guess. It is common knowledge that celebrity’s lives are often quite a shambles, since we like to chronicle their personal failures in the daily “news” we eagerly consume. They may not make good examples like Jesus, but for the ego they make even better scapegoats. They don’t have entire religious movements defending them against calumniation.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

CCC 1861:
However, although **we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, **we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

Learn the difference between “grave offense” and “mortal sin” and you will be half way there.

1 Cor 6:2-3: " do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!"

That quote is even more interesting with a little additional context and bold type on a different part:

1 Cor 6:1-6
1 How can any one of you with a case against another dare to bring it to the unjust for judgment instead of to the holy ones? 2 Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world? If the world is to be judged by you, are you unqualified for the lowest law courts? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? Then why not everyday matters? 4 If, therefore, you have courts for everyday matters, do you seat as judges people of no standing in the church? 5** I say this to shame you. Can it be that there is not one among you wise enough to be able to settle a case between brothers? 6 But rather brother goes to court against brother, and that before unbelievers?**

It kind of changes the flavor when given this context. It sounds like if you have a problem with Caitlyn/Bruce you should maybe talk to your pastor unless you deem yourself worthy to judge a man you’ve never met. Doesn’t sound like Paul is advocating casting highly public judgments of people, but I may be totally wrong.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Directly to the OP question:

Re: Is the unpopular opinion always considered “judging”?

Answer: probably by somebody. Especially when the “popular opinion” it itself a judgment of a presumed sinner – it is very unpopular to refrain from judging as Jesus does.

How about an alternative hypothesis: Is it “judgmental” to point out that Jesus advised us not to level public accusations against each other?

Since judging is in vogue and therefore very popular, and following the words and example of our Lord by not judging and condemning is "out", so therefore a judgmental opinion is always going to be a popular opinion.

That doesn’t mean the popular opinion is correct; they killed Jesus for His alleged sins that were “known” to the public and judged sufficiently sinful to be worthy of death – death on a cross.

The unpopular opinion will be the one calling us to recognize the planks in our own eyes before trying to remove the specks from others’. I choose to side with this one.

And judge those who disagree with me.

 

[rae317]

It seems that it is easy to brush someone off as judgmental if he or she does not agree with what he or she has to say.

I read the thread.
I am a transsexual woman.
There was a lot of judgment and lot of expert opinion from people who have no clue what they are talking about but who need to judge others anyway.
A lot of things said that were quite hurtful.

It is what it is, judgment.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I read the thread.
I am a transsexual woman.
There was a lot of judgment and lot of expert opinion from people who have no clue what they are talking about but who need to judge others anyway.
A lot of things said that were quite hurtful.

It is what it is, judgment.

I would be interested in knowing if and how I personally contributed to it. Without the benefit of knowing any of my IRL friends to be transsexual I am normally only privy to what I see from large media and I know that spokespeople for groups I identify with normally fall far short of what I consider honest and meaningful in their press releases.

My intent is not to be hateful, but that doesn’t mean that I am not hiding something from myself that others can see.

MS

 

[CRATUS]

Most of you have heard about Bruce Jenner’s debut as Caitlyn Jenner. I was reading through the comments on some news articles on this issue. Some Christians commented and said that no matter what, Bruce will always be a man because God made him that way. I noticed that most of the comments in response to those comments basically stated, “Well, if you’re such a good Christian, then why are you judging?” None of the comments that tried to shine a biblical light on the issue came off as ignorant, but it is our Christian duty to warn our neighbors of their sins. Am I the only one that noticed this, or are those who side with the unpopular opinion considered “judgmental” all too often? Why is having a Bible-based opinion so bad? It seems that it is easy to brush someone off as judgmental if he or she does not agree with what he or she has to say.

It’s not just with cases like his. In general, if you demonstrate traditional or conservative views regarding gender, marriage, sexuality most people will think you are judgmental. The word “judgmental” is often paired with sexuality. There is a certain idea that people cannot comment on the way others elect to lead their personal lives or what they do with their own bodies. Maybe some Christians were indeed being judgmental. Of course, the ultimate mark of being a horrible Christian is being judgmental. I really do not understand.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Interesting talk from before “Transgender” was really a thing – but a lot to think about in terms of morality and sex and how it relates to the Church.

Alan Watts is not Catholic, but he was once and Anglican priest, before he went along other paths. Here he discusses some of the ways in which the sins of sexual immorality have really taken front and center stage.

Alan Watts - Sex In The Church

That’s another reason I mentioned Fr. Barron’s CD course in the deadly sins. As Dante depicts in his Mount Purgatory that Barron uses as a tool to explain, we see that the really most serious sins are of pride, followed by the other two symptoms of “perverted love” envy and anger. These are far more serious issues, but what do we make the most noise about? Sexual irregularity. That’s why I think Pope Francis was wise to say let’s start rethinking our priorities and what we focus on rather than apologetics (head knowledge) and gay issues.

Here’s Franciscan Richard Rohr questioning that very mentality, and he has ample evidence to back up the things he says and has written a great deal about them. If we get back to listening to Jesus, we wouldn’t have issues about whether we are judgmental because we wouldn’t be:

What Did Jesus Really Teach

 

[Crown_of_Stars]

Most of you have heard about Bruce Jenner’s debut as Caitlyn Jenner. I was reading through the comments on some news articles on this issue. Some Christians commented and said that no matter what, Bruce will always be a man because God made him that way. I noticed that most of the comments in response to those comments basically stated, “Well, if you’re such a good Christian, then why are you judging?”

Right there, the phrase “If you’re such a good Christian,” to me, at least, identifies someone who is not a Christian himself or herself. It sounds threatening and mocking, and naive. They miss the whole point. Love the sinner, but don’t also glorify the sin. Jesus did not tell the adulterous woman… “Go in peace, and have all the sex you want. I won’t judge you.” He said, “Go in peace, and sin no more.” Why is it so difficult for us to get this?

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

“If you’re such a good Christian” is precisely an accusation that you are not, and you are about to be presented with “evidence” in support of that.

So I am judging them for making a concealed judgment against an alleged “obviously not Christian enough” person. So I am judgmental of people who judge others because they have judgmental opinions – there is no particular limit to the number of iterations that blame and shame and judgment take. These are all artifacts of minding others’ business instead of our own, with respect to the commandments. So I judge – that makes me just like everyone else. If they judge me back for not judging, then we can either deal with it by setting it aside, confronting it, or finding a way to work together without it being an issue. The easiest way is to “turn the other cheek” emotionally. As a past practitioner in “severe bipolar” I’ve found a good tool toward emotional stability can be just letting people say what they want, and listen in love. It’s easy, have been marginalized and nothingized by one or more people, to become defensive and to try to convert others to your point of view.

I am inquiring into Secular Franciscans. St. Francis saw Christ in everybody, including enemies. That’s why his love for Christ translated directly into his ability to make enemies into friends just by allowing that love to flow through his words. If we can see Christ in others, then how can we judge them sinners?

As one person said yes we may be able to tell whether a “grave matter” issue is at stake, but we can never judge. And the problem with saying “judge the sin not the sinner” is that you cannot have a “sin” without a “sinner” to have committed it. So what you’re really saying is, “you have sinned and God is hurt, but I’m not going to send you to hell just to let you know”. That’s like Bill Clinton saying that yes tried smoking pot once, but he “didn’t inhale”. You can’t have “tried smoking” without inhaling. You can only have pretended.

One theory I have is why we sometimes judge others’ (troubling behavior) as a sin, because from our own limited point of view and knowledge and different life experiences than the person involved, we try to imagine if we were in their shoes and saying/doing what we think they are, what would we be “up to” by saying it? IOW, if I typically lie under pressure, my first instinct will be another person is lying – and either habitually or on purpose not just because of being given false information. Because you can imagine “being like that” then your neurons in your brain have already run that scenario, which is why Jesus tells us that desiring sin and acting out have so much in common. If I normally lie and obfuscate and stall and cover up information like Hillary Clinton seems to be so good at, then of course she is going to think everybody else is just as dishonest, which makes her so convincing with her vitriolic tirades against imaginary forces that keep us distracted from the fact that she has no personality at all and cannot tell the truth if her life depended on it. And I might just judge that is does – see? That’s how I judge… so sorry I’m too much of a sinner to opine on whether others’ sins and judgments of mine and each others’ sins are anything but egoic posturing.