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mdaoust
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A minor point, but this was not against civil law.
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AlanFromWichita
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A minor point!A minor point, but this was not against civil law.
Ahh, well… ahem!
Alan
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Sam88
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I can’t quite equate befriending people, with participating in their sins or crimes. Are you familiar with Sister Helen Prejean? She certainly did more than I to befriend convicts on death row, most of whom had long criminal records. Following your logic, I would conclude that perhaps she would have been better off to rob a bank or two, so that she would be more easily accepted by these convicts.
When St. Paul said “to those outside the law, I become like one outside the law?”, I can’t imagine that this could mean “to reach thieves, I stole, to reach murderers, I killed, etc.”. In this context, I don’t think that the people “outside the law” meant lawbreakers anyway, but gentiles.
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AlanFromWichita
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You raise an excellent argument.
I’ll really have to think this through some more.
Right offhand, I’m tempted to run for the “victimless” crimes angle, or perhaps the distinction of whether the “crime” has collateral damage, or maybe is a mutually agreed upon sin, etc.
Thank you for challenging me on this. I’m not letting go of it completely but I’ll consider it more.
Meanwhile, in deference to the original question about whether marijuana is immoral, I have not really rung in on that. My only point was to dispel the notion that because someone “has used a drug” they are committing mortal sin – and some variations thereon.
Just because it is not a mortal sin, does not necessarily make it “moral” though. Therefore I am not claiming that smoking pot where it is illegal is “moral” but just “not necessarily a mortal sin” among those competent educated or whatever Catholics.
Now I will start with an assertion that does address the question in the thread title. I will make a specific case so hopefully it will limit the baggage count attached to the issue:
I assert that it is not necessarily immoral for a man, of legal age and born and raised in Amsterdam without ever leaving it, to go to a “bar” (or whatever they call it) and order today’s special on the menu and smoke it.
To disprove this assertion, I believe you must show that there is no chance a man can do that and still have acted morally. The problem is, I don’t exactly know what I mean by “moral” but I just don’t think it’s wrong in the eyes of God, unless there are complicating circumstances – such as he was using stolen or owed money, was intentionally trying to hurt anothers’ feelings, etc.
Alan
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Katie1723
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You can tell Alan’s back…running off at the keyboard again. You tell a newborn baby going thru marijuana withdrawal that smoking a joint is legal.
~ Kathy ~
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Ana
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What is important is understanding how the Church defines drugs. I have asked, and other than emotionial “you just can’t!” I have not received a LOGICAL and REASONABLE response based on either Church teaching or Scripture. Caffiene, alcohol and tobacco are considered drugs by the FDA. So the Church cannot be using that definition, or it would be forbidding coffee, tea, cigarettes and alcohol, and the Church allows these things.
It cannot be because of potential addictiveness, or many prescription drugs would be forbidden, as well as coffee, cigarettes, tea and alcohol.
It cannot be potential for withdrawal or again, alcohol, cigarettes, caffiene, antidepressants, and many other prescription medications would be forbidden.
It cannot be immoral because it is illegal. It could be illegal because it is immoral, but the law does not prove it’s immorality one way or another. The law is fickle. It could be illegal today and legal tomorrow. If it was inherently immoral (as in abortion), it would be immoral whether it was legal or not.
It cannot be because of potential addictiveness, or many prescription drugs would be forbidden, as well as coffee, cigarettes, tea and alcohol.
It cannot be potential for withdrawal or again, alcohol, cigarettes, caffiene, antidepressants, and many other prescription medications would be forbidden.
It cannot be immoral because it is illegal. It could be illegal because it is immoral, but the law does not prove it’s immorality one way or another. The law is fickle. It could be illegal today and legal tomorrow. If it was inherently immoral (as in abortion), it would be immoral whether it was legal or not.
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Ana
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I have never heard of a baby going through marijuana withdrawal. I HAVE heard of a baby in withdrawal from alcohol. Alcohol consumption is not forbidden by the Church. So this cannot be a basis for it’s immorality.
Alcohol, as with many things,(not in and of themselves immoral) even food, it can be abused and thus become “sinful.” If alcohol is abused during pregnancy, than the alcohol consumption is sinful, one because of it’s abuse, but also because of the health consequences to the baby. But the potential for abuse does not “prove” immorality.
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AlanFromWichita
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I really like that summary.
It just occurred to me that it is legal in the United States, as far as I know, in Alaska. To grow and use, but not sell. That doesn’t make a lot of sense either, but it’s different. I wonder if the feds leave Alaska alone – I think it was in CA that the feds raided a place that was totally legal and sanctioned by the state, where terminal patients lived and tended their own garden. There it is legal by the state, but the feds cannot let that happen because, well, they are the feds.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
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Thank you for noticing.
I haven’t heard of “marijuana withdrawal” in a newborn baby. I’m not saying you are wrong; I haven’t done the research.
I have heard of “crack babies” and I’ve known women who were pro-choice because they supposedly had seen some. Personally I don’t know what crack looks like, and I don’t know what a “crack baby” looks like or acts like other than anecdotal, but it certainly does sound terrible.
Alan
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Ana
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Yeah, I guess they can afford to leave the petty criminals aside, and go after the REAL threats to society … Terminally ill patients, with cancer, MS, AIDS etc. that have a doctors prescription. I can really sleep much better tonight, knowing theses criminals have been brought to justice.
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Katie1723
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I am a maternity tech for 25+ years. Babies CAN and DO indeed go thru marijuana withdrawal. Same as a baby who’s mother smoked cigarettes during her pregnancy. Baby gets what the mama does. Mama goes thru withdrawal be it marijuana or nicotine and you can bet the baby does too. And let me tell you, you know how YOU as an adult feels quitting smoking, imagine how a baby feels. And they can’t do a darn thing about it. So YES, drug withdrawal of ANY kind in a newborn is NOT pretty.
~ Kathy ~
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Ana
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As a maternity tech, you would certainly have first hand experience to witness to the different types of withdrawal, and I am not arguing that this is a negative thing. BUT, this cannot be used as a basis to prove the immorality of marijuana (topic of thread), alcohol or cigarettes, except it’s abuse which is sinful outside of preganancy as well…
God bless.
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Katie1723
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I think we are debating semantics here. Like I tell my son, when I am down, I want my arms around a warm body not a cold bottle. When I am high, I want it to be because I am on a mountain top, not because I “rolled one”
Moral or immoral, smoking marijuana is not something I chose to do. I don’t know, I may be funny about some things, or as my son would say “old fashioned”, but I am a whole lot happier than my kids are and I like it that way!
Moral or immoral, smoking marijuana is not something I chose to do. I don’t know, I may be funny about some things, or as my son would say “old fashioned”, but I am a whole lot happier than my kids are and I like it that way!
~ Kathy ~
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Ana
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Semantics? I am just trying to stay on topic.The topic of the thread isn’t “do you or would you smoke marijuana?” The topic is " Is the use of marijuana in moderation immoral?" I know many people who completely abstain from alcohol and are happy, but this does not mean alcohol consumption is immoral. It is simply a personal decision, not based on morality, except some Protestants who do believe it is immoral.
BTW, I am glad you are happy.
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Katie1723
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Ok Ana…you win. If you go by the dictionary definition of immoral, marijuana smoking is not immoral. Illegal in places, but immoral …no. Now do you feel better?Semantics? I am just trying to stay on topic.The topic of the thread isn’t “do you or would you smoke marijuana?” The topic is " Is the use of marijuana in moderation immoral?" I know many people who completely abstain from alcohol and are happy, but this does not mean alcohol consumption is immoral. It is simply a personal decision, not based on morality, except some Protestants who do believe it is immoral.
BTW, I am glad you are happy.
~ Kathy ~
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thistle
Guest
One thing you can be sure of and that is you cannot rationalise with a drug user. They see nothing wrong in taking drugs (pot or stronger) in the first place, they never see they have a problem after using regularly, and they always try to justify why they are taking drugs. They also deny they are addicted.
Take Alan in this thread. He is trying to justify taking drugs in order to evangelise. How crazy and stupid is that!! Even if it was true (which its not) that in itself is also a sin. The Church clearly teaches that an end, no matter how good, is never justified by the means, if not good and drug taking is definitely not good. Only drug addicts will argue otherwise.
If anyone wonders why I feel so strongly about this its because my nephew has been in rehab the past 5 months. None of us knew about his habit as he lived in a rented appartment near his college. We only discovered his habit when he was arrested. By the way Alan, he started on pot thinking it was okay but then moved on to stronger drugs.
DRUGS ARE EVIL
Drugs are the path leading to Satan not the path to Christ.
Alan, however you may try to justify using drugs you are only kidding yourself. Drugs are evil and it IS a mortal sin to take them.
I refer you to again to the CCC.
Secondly I refer you to a book I have called How To Make A Good Confession. The has both Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat which means the contents of the book are free from both doctrinal and moral error.
It states in the book that the distribution, sale or use of illegal drugs is a mortal sin (Fifth Commandment).
Thirdly I refer you to website www.catholic.org/frz/examen/mortal_main.htm
Scroll down to the Fifth Commandment and you will see it is a mortal sin to take or sell illegal drugs.
Nobody should kid themselves that smoking pot is okay. That kind of attitude rubs off to children who in turn think there is no problem doing that.
Drug taking leads to self destruction and destruction of families. It is EVIL.
If you want to get high, then get high on GOD.
Take Alan in this thread. He is trying to justify taking drugs in order to evangelise. How crazy and stupid is that!! Even if it was true (which its not) that in itself is also a sin. The Church clearly teaches that an end, no matter how good, is never justified by the means, if not good and drug taking is definitely not good. Only drug addicts will argue otherwise.
If anyone wonders why I feel so strongly about this its because my nephew has been in rehab the past 5 months. None of us knew about his habit as he lived in a rented appartment near his college. We only discovered his habit when he was arrested. By the way Alan, he started on pot thinking it was okay but then moved on to stronger drugs.
DRUGS ARE EVIL
Drugs are the path leading to Satan not the path to Christ.
Alan, however you may try to justify using drugs you are only kidding yourself. Drugs are evil and it IS a mortal sin to take them.
I refer you to again to the CCC.
Secondly I refer you to a book I have called How To Make A Good Confession. The has both Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat which means the contents of the book are free from both doctrinal and moral error.
It states in the book that the distribution, sale or use of illegal drugs is a mortal sin (Fifth Commandment).
Thirdly I refer you to website www.catholic.org/frz/examen/mortal_main.htm
Scroll down to the Fifth Commandment and you will see it is a mortal sin to take or sell illegal drugs.
Nobody should kid themselves that smoking pot is okay. That kind of attitude rubs off to children who in turn think there is no problem doing that.
Drug taking leads to self destruction and destruction of families. It is EVIL.
If you want to get high, then get high on GOD.
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Ana
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So you are stating that your position on the topic of the thread, is that marijuana is not immoral, but that you choose to not smoke it (or eat it).
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Katie1723
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MY position is it is immoral. Merriam-Webster however defines immoral differently than I do. That’s all I’m saying. How is it up there on your soapbox anyway? You seem very opinionated. And before you go off on me, opinionated is not necessarily a bad thingSo you are stating that your position on the topic of the thread, is that marijuana is not immoral, but that you choose to not smoke it (or eat it).
I wasn’t aware I was feeling bad. I didn’t state how I was feeling one way or another. You did. you said you were happy and I responded that I was glad, and I am.
~ Kathy ~
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AlanFromWichita
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Oh, this is so wonderful. An amiable agreement has been reached.
Isn’t Christian charity fabulous? People have differences of opinions but they are sufficiently open-minded to change their views, and then show concern for the feelings of their previous adversary. That rules!
I have a project where I am trying to characterize interpersonal communication techniques among people, and Christians in particular. I think I shall call this style of response “hostile retreat.”
Thank you for participating.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
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You might be partly right. From the evidence, it does indeed appear that you cannot rationalize with a drug user. From what I’ve read so far, though, my guess is that your problem might extend beyond drug users, though.
The reason, though, is that you speak in pseudo-absolute cliches and use broad-brushed characatures, biases, and cliches to make your points. Further, you do not seem to be able to process whatever is said to the degree that your response to it reflects what has been said.
You are extroardinarily free with sprinkling around the terms “never” and “always” as tack-ons to your incorrect assertions, making them yet more incorrect. This is why you have trouble with rationality.
Then I must be a drug addict by your logic. God allowed his only begotten Son to be brutally tortured and murdered though completely innocent, so that we may be saved – isn’t that a bit like an evil means to a good end?
Am I using this as an excuse to do drugs? No, I am trying to illustrate how careless you really are being with your statements. I’ve taught College Algebra to hundreds of both reluctant and eager students, but I’ve had only one or two that were so dense that despite my personal efforts to help them, their mental block was such that they just couldn’t grasp it.
Now I understand why this is so hard for you. When you have something personal at stake that is understandable.
I’m sorry to hear about your nephew. I’m curious about something – if you only knew about his habit because he was arrested, then was his habit causing other problems before that?
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