Is the use of the cross in this Islamic advertisement offensive to you?

[dzheremi]

I have posted my reasons for finding it offensive in post #2 of this thread. It is, I believe, nothing more or less than another attempt by a Muslim to glom on to Christianity in an attempt to manufacture for Islam a legitimacy and patrimony that it does not actually have. The archetype of such attempts is the Qur’an itself.

 

[Bluegoat]

I have posted my reasons for finding it offensive in post #2 of this thread. It is, I believe, nothing more or less than another attempt by a Muslim to glom on to Christianity in an attempt to manufacture for Islam a legitimacy and patrimony that it does not actually have. The archetype of such attempts is the Qur’an itself.

You are aware that any pious Muslim would feel the same way about a lecture from a Christian perspective on why Islam is wrong? Or those ads on CAF for books on that topic? Or do you think all Muslims are not really believers?

 

[KathleenGee]

Bluegoat…

Could anyone make such a comment on a Muslim site?

How about the **** Christ. Did that offend you? Or the idea of it…or the ants and debris covering the corpus of Christ at an American art center funded by taxpayers?

The thread is about Christians’ sense of the sacred. Who is affected by it and who is not. The thread is not calling on Muslims to make more slams against the saving action of Christ’s death.

How far does Christian tolerance go? I am still praying for the Christians who were murdered in the Catholic Church in Iraq…now there is a story coming out about a 3 year old little boy who saw his parents shot, went around following the terrorists shouting out “Enough, enough!” until after several hours they turned on him and shot him dead.

So I equate such type of advertising as enabling or feeding, even a minor degree, the motives of terrorists.

 

[dzheremi]

You are aware that any pious Muslim would feel the same way about a lecture from a Christian perspective on why Islam is wrong? Or those ads on CAF for books on that topic? Or do you think all Muslims are not really believers?

I’m sorry, Bluegoat, but this is a non-response if I’ve ever seen one. Of course a Muslim would feel the same way. How does that in any way contradict my point that Islam takes for itself the prophets of the past (and indeed our God Jesus Christ), refashions them so as to be Islamic prophets, and that it is through these acts of recension that Islam is supported by any prophet or history outside of Muhammad? None of this has anything to do with Muslim feelings. Muslim feelings are not my concern, and certainly not a reason to put up with the perversion of faith inherent in the defense and propagation of Islam.

Relativism sucks. Don’t fall for it. As we have seen over and over in recent and long-passed days, nothing is worse for safety of the world than to be overly accommodating to Muslim feelings.

 

[Bluegoat]

I’m sorry, Bluegoat, but this is a non-response if I’ve ever seen one. Of course a Muslim would feel the same way. How does that in any way contradict my point that Islam takes for itself the prophets of the past (and indeed our God Jesus Christ), refashions them so as to be Islamic prophets, and that it is through these acts of recension that Islam is supported by any prophet or history outside of Muhammad? None of this has anything to do with Muslim feelings. Muslim feelings are not my concern, and certainly not a reason to put up with the perversion of faith inherent in the defense and propagation of Islam.

Relativism sucks. Don’t fall for it. As we have seen over and over in recent and long-passed days, nothing is worse for safety of the world than to be overly accommodating to Muslim feelings.

I’m not expecting that people should say things are true that are not, or that everything is true. I am talking about people feeling somehow personally offended by the beliefs of others, personally offended that people don’t share our beliefs, or understand the things we believe in a way we disagree with.

By all means in the appropriate places say why you disagree with the Muslim understanding of Christ. I don’t think it is all that historically sensible. And any Muslim who is personally offended by that is, I think, silly. Any one who tells me I can’t put forward my view in a polite way in a public space (like an open internet forum) can, as far as I am concerned, bugger off. (Polite means I’m not being aggressive, or butting into conversations and baiting people, or making it impossible for them to discuss Muslim issues, or posting on boards marked for faith members only, etc.)

But I also extend the same courtesies to Muslims. I am not offended that they disagree with me. I assume they are honest in their convictions. I assume that they actually have an understanding of their own religion, and respect their ability to understand mine. I don’t mind if they express their view of my religious and historical interpretations, and I don’t expect them to change their mind as a result of their discussion with me.

I especially don’t take their views as some personal comment about me, or as some attempt to hurt Jesus. That is just a completely bizarre and self-absorbed thing to do.

So no, I am not offended by the advertisement in the OP, and I wouldn’t expect Muslims to be offended by a similar advertisement for a Christian talk on Islam. I am not sure how that equates to moral relativism, unless there is some requirement that I am offended by all I disagree with.

 

[Bluegoat]

Bluegoat…

Could anyone make such a comment on a Muslim site?

They do - Catholics and others are indeed capable of such a thing. Or are you implying that since (you assume) Muslims don’t allow open discussion on their forums, Catholics shouldn’t either? There are several problems with that. 1-Some Muslim sites are public and open to all. 2- Not all Muslims agree with others who do not allow open discussion. 3-that is a 9 year olds view of moral theology. 4 - the owners of this site do allow it. There are closed Catholic discussion forums if you prefer.

How about the **** Christ. Did that offend you? Or the idea of it…or the ants and debris covering the corpus of Christ at an American art center funded by taxpayers?

I don’t know anything about the pieces you are talking about, so I have no opinion. Certainly I think there is plenty of art that is in bad taste, and some is even offensive. I do not find art offensive simply for being non-Christian and seeing the Christian view of Christ untrue. I don’t find art critiquing Christianity to be offensive. I find lack of respect and unkindness in expressing these ideas to be offensive. I object to bad art, whomever funds it.

The thread is about Christians’ sense of the sacred. Who is affected by it and who is not. The thread is not calling on Muslims to make more slams against the saving action of Christ’s death.

No one is slamming things. It was pertinent to the thread what the Muslim view of Christ was - it was not even brought up by a Muslim.

How far does Christian tolerance go? I am still praying for the Christians who were murdered in the Catholic Church in Iraq…now there is a story coming out about a 3 year old little boy who saw his parents shot, went around following the terrorists shouting out “Enough, enough!” until after several hours they turned on him and shot him dead.

So I equate such type of advertising as enabling or feeding, even a minor degree, the motives of terrorists.

Are you serious? My advice to you is not to go on the internet, or out in mixed company, and to pray that you begin to see people as individuals instead of simply as representatives of a group - and the worst of the group too. You have a completely out of proportion fear of Muslims. This is like saying a Catholic talk on homosexuality fuels hate crimes against gays.

Sister Amy is correct - you do need prayers. You are full of fear.

 

[dzheremi]

So no, I am not offended by the advertisement in the OP, and I wouldn’t expect Muslims to be offended by a similar advertisement for a Christian talk on Islam. I am not sure how that equates to moral relativism, unless there is some requirement that I am offended by all I disagree with.

The relativism bit comes from “wouldn’t Muslims feel the same about X?” What is the point of pointing this out, if not to temper criticism of Islam by pointing out that the communities have different perspectives (as though the mere fact that differing perspectives exist means that no one can be right or wrong)? Of course Muslims would feel the same about a Christian lecture about Islam, but that’s not what I was writing about in the post you quoted before writing that, and that’s not what this thread is about. What is the point of pointing out how hurt Muslim feelings might be in this hypothetical situation nobody is talking about?

 

[SnakeMauler]

I saw this advertisement for an Islamic lecturer about the crucifixion of Jesus given by an ex Christian who converted to Islam. I found this picture to be very offensive to me as a Catholic because the Quran explicitly denies the crucifixion. I found the use of the cross in this case very unsettling does anyone else here feel that way or is it just me?

The point is we know Muslims are wrong and we could refute them in about a million other ways. There only evidence for their belief in Jesus is the Quran which was written 600 years or so after Jesus died. They also will ocassionally throw in several bible verses to support it, while completely ignoring others. It’s like how Mormons think the Bible was “corrupted”- Muslims too use it to argue when its good for them, but anything that contradicts it has no weight in an argument. Similarly, the tons of extra canonical Christian writings we have probably don’t exist to Muslims either. Or they deny them, as some hardcore Fundamentalists deny fossil evidence of dinosaurs (my friend’s brother in law, a pastor of some kind )

-Snakemauler

 

[Bluegoat]

The relativism bit comes from “wouldn’t Muslims feel the same about X?” What is the point of pointing this out, if not to temper criticism of Islam by pointing out that the communities have different perspectives (as though the mere fact that differing perspectives exist means that no one can be right or wrong)? Of course Muslims would feel the same about a Christian lecture about Islam, but that’s not what I was writing about in the post you quoted before writing that, and that’s not what this thread is about. What is the point of pointing out how hurt Muslim feelings might be in this hypothetical situation nobody is talking about?

The thread is about how people feel about a poster, not about whether they think Islam is correct. In your view we should be offended by anyone who disagrees with us? I agree that how we feel about this is mostly irrelevant - we should be able to express what we believe even if it makes others feel uncomfortable. (I would say we shouldn’t normally go about making people uncomfortable for the sake of it, or specifically in order to be offensive.)

I am just flummoxed that you would be offended by people who think differently than you, even if you think their reasoning is pretty cracked. Just because something is probably wrong doesn’t make it offensive. What does that even mean?

 

[roelblomsma]

I saw this advertisement for an Islamic lecturer about the crucifixion of Jesus given by an ex Christian who converted to Islam. I found this picture to be very offensive to me as a Catholic because the Quran explicitly denies the crucifixion. I found the use of the cross in this case very unsettling does anyone else here feel that way or is it just me?

I guess, in this case it was not meant harmful. It’s rediculous though that he should use the cross as a symbol for his brochure.

 

[Jehoshua]

This particular image does not really offend me. although there are plenty of other things (bible desecration in a glasgow “art” exhibit for one) that have and do.

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What offends me though regarding the fundamental issue that seems to come up is the mentality that manifests itself in the greater whole of the muslim community in my (and other countries) and the islamic world in general.

This mentality maintains that things “offensive” to islam should be censored and that it infringes of their religious freedom and in some cases that they under the right of “religious freedom” should be permitted to implement islamic law amongst their communities. (see the cartoon controversies and the discussion on sharia in brittain) Or at the very least deserve some sort of special treatment

Conversely in the islamic world the muslim society does not reciprocate the level of freedom (exclusive protective status from my observations) they want or even have. Islamic society is permitted to mock christianity all it wants, build mosques and freely practice their religion because we tolerate freedom of expression yet in the islamic world in many places you cannot even posess a cross for private devotional use without being rounded up by the religious police.

They are given religious freedom yet this mentality wants more “rights” yet hypocritically the same treatment to christians is denied in the islamic world.

This is what offends me, that Muslims set themselves apart and hypocritically ask for treatment that in the islamic world is inconcievable for christians. If Muslims expect to be looked upon by mainstream western society without suspicion and without outright dislike (denying that most people in the west harbor at least suspicion of Islam is just an outright lie) then they need to jettison the hypocrisy and give what they request of western society.

Until they do that muslims in the west are unlikely to recieve a positive view from the mainstream society, despite the individual merits of many muslims, and there are many virtuous and good muslims because of this mentality many muslims have that is exclusive, hypocritical and oppressive of any belief system other than its own politicised ideology.

 

[scipio337]

The relativism bit comes from “wouldn’t Muslims feel the same about X?” What is the point of pointing this out, if not to temper criticism of Islam by pointing out that the communities have different perspectives (as though the mere fact that differing perspectives exist means that no one can be right or wrong)? Of course Muslims would feel the same about a Christian lecture about Islam, but that’s not what I was writing about in the post you quoted before writing that, and that’s not what this thread is about. What is the point of pointing out how hurt Muslim feelings might be in this hypothetical situation nobody is talking about?

Its called a “red herring”. The topic of the thread isn’t about “Christian Lecture offensive to Islam”.

As a side note, I don’t think it is the Islamic beliefs themselves I would find offensive in the poster, but the *portrayal *of those beliefs, via the depiction.

 

[century153]

Iman (faith/belief) has three parts, in Islam:

(1) believing something in your heart
(2) declaring it with your tongue
(3) acting on it

Doing an act without correct faith or belief isn’t worth anything.

Righteous deeds, what you call “works” aren’t sufficient without faith. They should be a proof of faith. Without faith they’re empty and useless and won’t save anyone.

That sounds a bit like Christianity – you know, if you believe in your heart that Christ is raised from the dead and declare with your mouth – you will be saved. The act part comes next – somewhere in the book of James about faith without works is DEAD!

 

[dzheremi]

In your view we should be offended by anyone who disagrees with us?

Where do you get this idea from? Certainly not from my posts in this thread (#2 and #108), where I express what my actual view is.

I am just flummoxed that you would be offended by people who think differently than you, even if you think their reasoning is pretty cracked. Just because something is probably wrong doesn’t make it offensive. What does that even mean?

The content of Islamic disagreements with Christianity is essentially a non-issue to me. Muhammad and company simply do not factor into my theology, Again, what offends me is Islam’s absolute inability to define and defend itself and its doctrines without revision, denigration, and ultimately suppression or elimination of not only the religions that came before it, but of all of history itself. The historical revisionism that Islam is built upon ought to be incredibly offensive to anyone, regardless of their particular view on the divinity of Christ or His crucifixion. As it robs the Christians of Jesus, so too it robs the Jews of Moses, but more disturbingly, more deeply it robs the world of a shared history built on common recognition of what reality itself is. Inconvenient realities are simply rewritten so as to give Islam a squeaky clean image and make any troubles the result of foreign/western meddling. There are no Assyrians, only “Kurdish Christians” (itself a term that came about through foreign misunderstandings, but you can bet I’ve seen Kurdish Muslims use it to denigrate Christian Assyrians) who are darn lucky to have such merciful and benevolent Muslim leaders watching over there with only the purest of intentions. The Muslims have remade the entire world and all of its ideas and figures in their own image, and for what? For the sake of their ******** religion and its deluded founder on whose edicts their horribly repressive societies are founded.

Enough. Khalas. If disagreements existed in a vacuum wherein Islam could disagree peacefully on any given point with Christianity or Judaism or any other religion, you might have a point in claiming that there’s reason to be offended by Muslim views, but in the real world that is simply not what we see. We don’t see that because Islam has never suffered that its followers should be without their divine right to rule over others. No, instead “al-awal al-sebt, b’ada thallek al-ahad” (“First Saturday, then Sunday”) is the more consistent pattern. And all because Islam needs to assert its version of reality over all others.

The kind of disagreement that you are championing is not one that I have any problem with. Unfortunately, its also not one that Islam and its followers are ultimately interested in having for any longer than is absolutely necessary.

 

[century153]

BlueGoat…

As the Vatican has said, as well as other non-Muslims, dialogue with Islam is very difficult and oftentimes does not produce any fruit.

There is also the issue of Muslims being the definers of Christianity when they are outside our faith. It is wrong to defame and mock other peoples’ religion. You see Muslims starting riots over the defamation of Mohammed.

I have witnessed Muslims coming here, some posing as a single individual when in fact they are groups. We had a thread on Islam and the crucifixion of Christ, and after the discussion ended after Catholics spending much time on it, the next post would come up and ask the same questions all over again.

There is an article on the internet advising Muslims how to talk about religion without insulting them. It is good advice Muslims should follow when coming here.

But when Muslims are repeatedly given explanation and after explanation, and then to make comments as follow up that Jesus never died…it is at the point of blasphemy.

There is a difference between saying I don’t understand to saying Christ wasn’t crucified or never died. It is wrong for Muslims to come here to blaspheme the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Before entering CAF, a Muslim should pray for themselves and discern what their motives really are…and then act accordingly to directives given by their Muslim leadership when beginning here or any other site.

Muslims cannot define who and what Christianity is because they do not understand it. They are no authority on Christianity…just as we are no authority on the Koran.

K - I just want to say that there may be at least ONE Muslim whom I know personally that is really deeply concerned about the fact that - in this particular case - I, do not believe that Jesus is not God – there is no Trinity - and, Jesus did not die on the cross - and that He was only a prophet according to the likes of Moses. He prays for me every day and is worried that we will not be together when we die. So, what I am saying is, each person that comes on this forum has his or her own personal motives for being here – hopefully they are going to be “to build my faith”. I pray that we all know the truth in our hearts - and I believe that anyone who is confronted with the Love of Christ can NEVER deny Who He Is – He is the Lord and Savior of the World. I don’t believe anyone on this Forum has intentions to blaspheme anyone’s religion – but that they are seekers of the Truth.

 

[century153]

I agree with you, but the question is whether the use of the cross in the above advertisement put forth by an Islamic group is offensive to Christians. If you feel it is, then I would like to know how. Simply arguing that the ad is published by an Islamic group does not make the ad offensive. What is it about the advertisement in and of itself that should offend us?

As far as I can see — Nothing.

 

[Jehoshua]

Again, what offends me is Islam’s absolute inability to define and defend itself and its doctrines without revision, denigration, and ultimately suppression or elimination of not only the religions that came before it, but of all of history itself.

Id have to concur with this sentiment and most of the rest of your post as well.

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An example of this is when I had a debate ages ago on these forums about contradictions in the Quran, I mentioned three sura’s with a brief summary of how they contradicted.

He replied by copying them and simply stating, “There are no contradictions in the Quran”

So i followed with a lengthy explanation of how they contradicted and the whole fallacy of the claim of Quranic inffalibilty.

this was followed by deathly silence.

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Every muslim i have ever met, and discussed this with has avoided the question and sought to shout down any opposition while ignoring logic and clear evidence. What is really offensive about this advertisement is this ideological arrogance that pervades Islam, and the hypocricy of Islam in its double standards regarding christianity.

It appears that muslims cant take what they give, if anything this implies to me a lack of genuine conviction in Islam amongst many muslims beyond the societal indoctrination and cultural ingrainment of the religion in islamic cultures if they arent willing to put islam to scrutiny for fear of being shown thy fallaciousness of Muhammads whole religious construction.

 

[Sister_Amy]

That sounds a bit like Christianity – you know, if you believe in your heart that Christ is raised from the dead and declare with your mouth – you will be saved. The act part comes next – somewhere in the book of James about faith without works is DEAD!

It’s why I love the book of James.

A perception that I have about Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, is the following:

That Judaism focuses on “works” and not faith,
That Christianity actually focuses on “faith,” but less on works
And that Islam is a middle path between the two, with equal emphasis on both.

I’m part of a “Faith Club” with members from different faiths, and someone proposed the question to members what was the most essential part of their religion, the non-negotiable parts, what couldn’t be done without. And the Jewish members indicated it was the rituals and practices–obeying the Commandments. And the Christian members indicated it was faith and God’s grace, since we can’t “earn” God’s favor.

What do you think of that? There is a Catholic member in the group, but I’m not sure if she was there that day (I wasn’t, either.)

 

[century153]

It’s why I love the book of James.

A perception that I have about Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, is the following:

That Judaism focuses on “works” and not faith,
That Christianity actually focuses on “faith,” but less on works
And that Islam is a middle path between the two, with equal emphasis on both.

I’m part of a “Faith Club” with members from different faiths, and someone proposed the question to members what was the most essential part of their religion, the non-negotiable parts, what couldn’t be done without. And the Jewish members indicated it was the rituals and practices–obeying the Commandments. And the Christian members indicated it was faith and God’s grace, since we can’t “earn” God’s favor.

What do you think of that? There is a Catholic member in the group, but I’m not sure if she was there that day (I wasn’t, either.)

Well, since the Jewish members feel they cannot do without their rituals and obeying the commandments I believe if they thought about it really seriously, they would drive themselves crazy because how can anyone observe the Law perfectly. It is impossible. But, then, with Christ ALL things are possible. Which is why christians should never be frustrated or anxious…since we have a mediator between us and our God – Jesus Christ the Righteous One. We are no longer under the Law but under Grace. We do good works because we have faith…not the other way around. This is the difference between christians and most other religions. We don’t have to work for our salvation, it is the “gift of God”. Like I said before, we do good works and this proves we have faith, not the other way around. But, I’ll give you a little secret. There are a lot of Christians who believe they need to do good works to be saved.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Well, since the Jewish members feel they cannot do without their rituals and obeying the commandments I believe if they thought about it really seriously, they would drive themselves crazy because how can anyone observe the Law perfectly. It is impossible. But, then, with Christ ALL things are possible. Which is why christians should never be frustrated or anxious…since we have a mediator between us and our God – Jesus Christ the Righteous One. We are no longer under the Law but under Grace. We do good works because we have faith…not the other way around. This is the difference between christians and most other religions. We don’t have to work for our salvation, it is the “gift of God”. Like I said before, we do good works and this proves we have faith, not the other way around. But, I’ll give you a little secret. There are a lot of Christians who believe they need to do good works to be saved.

It’s one thing to say it’s inevitable for humans to sin (i.e., impossible to follow the Law “perfectly”) but quite another to disregard its importance.

In Islam, the faith and the works are intertwined and increase each other. More faith inspires one to do more works. And also, doing more works will increase a person’s faith. For example, fasting in Ramadan. Muslim increase their charity, reading scripture, and prayer in addition to fasting, and consequently observe an increase in their faith, which inspires them to do even more good deeds after Ramadan is over.

But if a person leaves an action–like prayer–then his faith is going to suffer.

It doesn’t mean Muslims are working for their salvation, but doing righteousness is part of their belief, part of the whole package of salvation.