Is the vatican 2 inerrancy qualification necessary?

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Leroy,

Thanks for your post. To answer your questions, Vatican II did not change inerrancy as it must be interpreted in light of Tradition, and when the context of the document is read, the meaning becomes more apparent.
LeRoy
Keep in mind that Una Fides interpretation of Vatican II is not a view that has ever been given any sort of official seal by the church. At least he has failed to show one despite being asked. I listed sources that do have authority and are at odds with his interpretation of Vatican II. (See post 54 in this thread.) I don’t think this issue is as simple as he sets out. But read through this thread and think for yourself.
 
I posted about Biblical inerrancy here and also had a thread discussing this dogma here.

It is a dogma of the Catholic faith that Sacred Scripture is free from all error. Praise God!
Pete
Thanks for contributing to this thread. It seems to me even the first set of questions one would ask have no answers. See my post 58.(I gave answers but I was only able to give answers based on my understanding but I can’t claim this is settled) I mean it seems to me that far from being settled we are left with questions no one on the largest Catholic Apologists message board can answer. And again that is just the first set. Its quite likely that once answers to those questions are given others will be raised. I mean if no one here can thoroughly explain the teaching where do we look? I think the fact that no one can really thoroughly explain this does indeed demonstrate its not settled territory.
 

Did you ever consider that you just have not figured out a way to interpret the passage yet that is convincing enough for you?
This statement sounds very odd to a non-believer.
Like trying to figure out a way to convince yourself red is really blue.

Again, I’ve repeated this several times on this thread, the fact that God is the author of all Scripture and that he moved the writers to write exactly what he wanted mandates, as popes have authoritatively ruled, that Scripture cannot contain any errors whatsoever and that the human authors did not err whatsoever in what they wrote as an earlier papal declaration explicitly stated.
First off, “God is the author of all Scripture” is not a “fact”. It is merely a claim made by the organization that compiled that scripture. It’s hardly been proven as fact by any stretch of the imagination. The only “fact” here is that many Christians (not all) believe the claim is true. But this is hardly proof of anything.


If you are a Catholic, you are bound by the law of the Church to hold to these things.

Ah, here’s the whole point of the claim - behavioral control.
Telling kids that Santa won’t bring presents if they don’t behave well might get the job done, but …
 
I have been posting this to certain blogs in order to get as much info as possible. “Theocid” was quite helpful in this regard. He basically offered a way to look at this passage that I think has the best prospects for those who want what I call the extreme inerrancy position. Here is the link:

blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=16278999&postID=6739269075034089793&page=1

I think this is at least an intellectually honest way to defend this particular passage from error. Nevertheless, I am still concerned about some of the other questions about what an extreme inerrancy position would mean for the Catholic Faith.

Like I ask in that blog:

It seems to me that on the extreme inerrancy approach we can’t allow that anything that was said be error - even if it is completely beside the point the author was trying to make.

My question is this: Does this not mean that there are no “small matters” or “minor claims” in scripture. I mean according to this reading of the Popes every detail must be believed and it matters not one wit whether we are talking about the resurrection or rabbits chewing cud. What do you think? Do you think the Popes statements logically imply this?
 
Ah, here’s the whole point of the claim - behavioral control. Telling kids that Santa won’t bring presents if they don’t behave well might get the job done, but …
To finish your statement that you didn’t… “but it won’t convince someone who is not already Catholic.” My statements were directed to someone who claimed to be Catholic and accept the teachings of the Catholic faith. The nature of the Catholic faith is that one cannot pick and choose. By its very nature, it is one that must either be accepted on a whole or on the whole rejected. The reason for this fact is based on the nature of truth, which is unable to change. The Church has been given authority by Christ to declare truth from error. And if one accepts the Church and claims to be one of her members, then they must accept her claims to the truth or reject them. It has nothing to do with behavioral control and everything to do with truth and authority.

As you rightly pointed out, the Bible came from the Church. The Church and her Tradition preceded the Bible. But from where did the Church come? She was founded by Christ, and her leaders were vested with his very own authority, as history, Scripture, and Tradition demonstrate. God did not want his people to remain in ignorance about him. He wanted them to know the truth so that they may thereby be made free. For this reason, he established his Church, which people enter upon faith. It was this faith in Christ and his Church and the truth that he has revealed to us through his Church about Scripture to which I was appealing. There is a viable explanation out there that leaves the Scriptures as inerrant; however, it appears that some people do not wish to find it or think they should not have to and are content disregarding the teaching authority of the Church to which they claim to belong.
 
I think both of you are correct in some ways. Anon is correct in that the original intent of the thread was in some ways to understand how we can go about giving reasons for the faith to non believers. But Una Fides is correct that before I can do that I need to get the Catholic Faith straight. I’m trying to give reasons for my Catholic faith not reasons for a heretical belief system. 🙂 So I think both aspects are important.
 
I think both of you are correct in some ways. Anon is correct in that the original intent of the thread was in some ways to understand how we can go about giving reasons for the faith to non believers. But Una Fides is correct that before I can do that I need to get the Catholic Faith straight. I’m trying to give reasons for my Catholic faith not reasons for a heretical belief system. 🙂 So I think both aspects are important.
I’m missing something here.

It seems that the teaching is that the Bible is 100% error-free not only in terms of religious or moral issues, but history and others as well.

Now, as lame as it may sound: I am still waiting for a good explanation for that verse about rabbits/hares chewing their cud.

If it’s right, there has to be an explanation. Give it to me please.
 
new info (needs confirmation):
Moses declared in Leviticus 11: 5 over 3,000 years ago that the rock hyrax chews the cud. For readers unacquainted with rock hyraxes, the rock hyrax is a small animal that lives in the rocky areas of Arabia Petreae and the Holy Land. Some people have taken issue with Moses regarding rock hyrax cud chewing. So the question naturally arises, “What does the evidence say?”
According to the Biological Abstracts which are summaries of biological research done throughout the world, Abstract 72891 for the year 1967 says the following:
72891 HENDRICHS, H. Vergleichende Untersuchung des wiederkauverhaltens Comparative investigation of cud retainers] BIOL ZENTRALBL 84 (6): 671-751 Illus. 1965 recd.1966]. – All artiodactyl families and about 80% of the spp. were investigated. Chewing regurgitated fodder is an idle pastime as well as an instinct associated with appetite. Characteristic movements were analyzed for undisturbed samples of animals maintained on preserves. Group specific differences are reported in form, rhythm, frequency and side of chewing motion. The ungulate type is characterized as a specialization. The operation is described for the first time for the order Hyracoidea. On the basis of 12 spp. of the marsupial subfamily Macropodinae rumination is inferred for the whole category. Advantages of the process are debated."
One of the writers for The Investigator Magazine (an Australian magazine that is devoted to Skeptic versus Bible Believer debates among other topics) made the following commentary regarding Hendrich’s research:
"Notice the sentence: “The operation is described for the first time for the order of Hyracoida.”
“Order Hyracoidea” is the scientific name of a category of animals that includes the Hyrax…
In 1964 Zoologist Hubert Hendrichs observed hyraxes at the Munich zoo in Germany and noticed swallowing movements…he observed a Hyrax making swallowing movements although not eating…He subsequently investigated more closely. Further observation showed that the Hyraxes chew the cud mainly at night for about an hour…
The reason the Hyrax’s cud chewing behavior remained unconfirmed so long is that the animal chews the cud as little as 30 minutes a day and usually at night. Unless hyraxes are held in captivity their cud chewing would not be noticed!"
source:
christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=178
 
This interpretation has been discussed in this thread. The ultimate problems with this interpretation are:
  1. Rabbits don’t “chew” the excrement they swallow the pellets whole.
  2. Pigs also eat their excrement
Hey Joe! May God bless you on this journey. Inerrancy is a teaching near and dear to my heart. I hope that my response is a blessing for you.

The two things I’d be curious to know here are
  1. What studies have been conducted to determine that the rabbit doesn’t chew his poop at all but swallows his poop pellets whole?
  2. When the pig eats his own poop (or other animals’ poop for that matter :)), is this part of a biological process which is seemingly necessary for him to get the nutrition he needs, as with the rabbit, or is he just being nasty? He’s probably just being nasty. I’ve seen a pig peeing and another pig walk up and start drinking from the urine fountain. They’re pretty gross.
The Catholic position on inerrancy as it pertains to physical sciences is laid down by Leo XIII:

There can never, indeed, be any real discrepancy between the theologian and the physicist, as long as each confines himself within his own lines, and both are careful, as St. Augustine warns us, “not to make rash assertions, or to assert what is not known as known.” If dissension should arise between them, here is the rule also laid down by St. Augustine, for the theologian: “Whatever they can really demonstrate to be true of physical nature, we must show to be capable of reconciliation with our Scriptures; and whatever they assert in their treatises which is contrary to these Scriptures of ours, that is to Catholic faith, we must either prove it as well as we can to be entirely false, or at all events we must, without the smallest hesitation, believe it [the true interpretation of Scripture] to be so.” To understand how just is the rule here formulated we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost “Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation.” Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time, and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science. Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers – as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us – “went by what sensibly appeared,” or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.
Since the rabbit appears to chew the cud, it is permissible for us to say that they chew the cud [from the perspective of the observer].

And there may be something to that refection trail that some people follow and which I do not exclude as a possibility.

And maybe the passage is not a reference to rabbits after all, but to some other animal.

Whatever solution may satisfy you, do not be satisfied with believing that there are errors in Sacred Scripture. 🙂

The Church teaches total inerrancy. This excludes big errors and little errors. It does not tell us how to interpret Scripture, literally or figuratively, except to say that there is no error whatsoever. If our interpretation leads us to charge Scripture with error, then something is wrong, but it’s not God (the Author) Who is wrong. 🙂

The article you linked to on the other forum quotes from Tertullian and Chrysostom. A pretty scant survey of the Fathers. But these are not the fathers that the Popes drew from in order to tell us what is the ancient and unchanging faith of the Church. Concerning Tertullian, I simply say with Jerome, “he there produces Tertullian as a witness … Of Tertullian I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church” (The Perpetual Virginity of Mary). And the key phrase from Chrysostomos is “discordance which seems to exist.”

But now even that discordance which seems to exist in little matters delivers them from all suspicion, and speaks clearly in behalf of the character of the writers.

But if there be anything touching times or places, which they have related differently, this nothing injures the truth of what they have said. And these things too, so far as God shall enable us, we will endeavor, as we proceed, to point out; requiring you, together with what we have mentioned, to observe, that in the chief heads, those which constitute our life and furnish out our doctrine, nowhere is any of them found to have disagreed, no not ever so little.
What did Chrysostomos say? He said two things
1.) there is no disagreement, “no not ever so little” in “those [chief heads] which constitute our life and furnish out our doctrine.” And

2.) even in “little matters… touching times or places,” the disagreement only seems to be there.

And this approach to Scripture agrees with the ancient and unchanging faith of the Catholic Church. The fact that the author of that article says that Chrysostom “was even bolder (at least to modern ears) to suggest that contradictions,” etc., is disingenuous. Two things: (1) there was nothing bold about what he said, and (2) he never admitted to there being any real contradictions. This is the author’s own spin to mislead his reader into adopting his own personal view of inerrancy over against that of the whole Church. But what do the Fathers really tell us about inspiration and inerrancy…
 
Clement of Rome (A.D. 96): “Look carefully into the Scriptures, which are the true utterances of the Holy Spirit. Observe that nothing of an unjust or counterfeit character is written in them” (, Ch. 45Letter to the Corinthians).

Justin Martyr (A.D. 150-160): “I shall not venture to suppose or to say …] the Scriptures contradicted each other …]; and if a Scripture which appears to be of such a kind be brought forward, and if there be a pretext [for saying] that it is contrary [to some other], since I am entirely convinced that no Scripture contradicts another, I shall admit rather that I do not understand what is recorded, and shall strive to persuade those who imagine that the Scriptures are contradictory, to be rather of the same opinion as myself” (, Ch. 65Dialogue with Trypho).

Irenaeus (A.D. 175-185): “If, however, we cannot discover explanations of all those things in Scripture which are made the subject of investigation, yet let us not on that account seek after any other God besides Him who really exists. For this is the very greatest impiety. We should leave things of that nature to God who created us, being most properly assured that the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit” (, Bk. 2, Ch. 28, 2Against Heresies).

Athenagoras (A.D. 176-177) : “I think that you also, with your great zeal for knowledge, and your great attainments in learning, cannot be ignorant of the writings either of Moses or of Isaiah and Jeremiah, and the other prophets, who, lifted in ecstasy above the natural operations of their minds by the impulses of the Divine Spirit, uttered the things with which they were inspired, the Spirit making use of them as a flute-player breathes into a flute” (, Ch. 9A Plea for the Christians).

Theophilus of Antioch (A.D. 180-185): “And Moses, who lived many years before Solomon, or, rather, the Word of God by him as by an instrument, says, ‘In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth’” (, Bk. 2, Ch. 10Theophilus to Autolycus).

Theophilus of Antioch (A.D. 180-185): “How much more, then, shall we know the truth who are instructed by the holy prophets, who were possessed by the Holy Spirit of God! On this account all the prophets spoke harmoniously and in agreement with one another, and foretold the things that would come to pass in all the world. For the very accomplishment of predicted and already consummated events should demonstrate to those who are fond of information, yea rather, who are lovers of truth, that those things are really true which they declared concerning the epochs and eras before the deluge: to wit, how the years have run on since the world was created until now” (, Bk. 3, Ch. 17Theophilus to Autolycus).

Hippolytus of Rome (A.D. 200): “For these fathers were furnished with the Spirit, and largely honoured by the Word Himself; and just as it is with instruments of music, so had they the Word always, like the plectrum, in union with them, and when moved by Him the prophets announced what God willed. For they spoke not of their own power (let there be no mistake as to that), neither did they declare what pleased themselves” (, 2On Antichrist).

Hippolytus of Rome (?) (A.D. 230): “Therefore they have laid their hands boldly upon the Divine Scriptures, alleging that they have corrected them. …] But how daring this offense is, it is not likely that they themselves are ignorant. For either they do not believe that the Divine Scriptures were spoken by the Holy Spirit, and thus are unbelievers, or else they think themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and in that case what else are they than demoniacs?” (qtd. in Eusebius, , Bk. 5, Ch. 28, 15 & 18Church History).
 
Origen (A.D. 244): “To the man who is a peacemaker …] there is in the Divine oracles nothing crooked or perverse, for they are all plain to those who understand. And because to such an one there is nothing crooked or perverse, he sees therefore abundance of peace in all the Scriptures, even in those which seem to be at conflict, and in contradiction with one another. And likewise he becomes a third peacemaker as he demonstrates that that which appears to others to be a conflict in the Scriptures is no conflict, and exhibits their concord and peace …] [A]ll the Scriptures are words of the wise like goads …] and there is nothing superfluous in them. …] [H]e who comes instructed in the music of God, …] knows that all the Scripture is the one perfect and harmonized instrument of God, which from different sounds gives forth one saving voice to those willing to learn…]” (, Bk. 2Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew).

Athanasius (A.D. 318): “Let this, then, Christ-loving man, be our offering to you, just for a rudimentary sketch and outline, in a short compass, of the faith of Christ and of His Divine appearing to usward. But you, taking occasion by this, if you light upon the text of the Scriptures, by genuinely applying your mind to them, will learn from them more completely and clearly the exact detail of what we have said. For they were spoken and written by God, through men who spoke of God” (, 56On the Incarnation of the Word).

Athanasius (A.D. 347?): “By Moses then, God gave commandment respecting sacrifices, and all the book called Leviticus is entirely taken up with the arrangement of these matters, so that He might accept the offerer. So through the Prophets, He blames him who despised these things, as disobedient to the commandment saying, ‘I have not required these at your hands. Neither did I speak to your fathers respecting sacrifices, nor command them concerning whole burnt-offerings .’ Now it is the opinion of some, that the Scriptures do not agree together, or that God, Who gave the commandment, is false. But there is no disagreement whatever, far from it, neither can the Father, Who is truth, lie; ‘for it is impossible that God should lie’ (Hebrews 6:18), as Paul affirms. But all these things are plain to those who rightly consider them, and to those who receive with faith the writings of the law” (, 3Letter 19).

Gregory of Nazianzus (A.D. 362?): [L]et us not suppose these events to have been recorded without a purpose, nor that they are a mere assemblage of words and deeds gathered together for the pastime of those who listen to them, as a kind of bait for the ears, for the sole purpose of giving pleasure. Let us leave such jesting to the legends and the Greeks, who think but little of the truth, and enchant ear and mind by the charm of their fictions and the daintiness of their style. We however, who extend the accuracy of the Spirit to the merest stroke and tittle, will never admit the impious assertion that even the smallest matters were dealt with haphazard by those who have recorded them, and have thus been borne in mind down to the present day” (, 104-105Oration 2).

Epiphanius (A.D. 377): “And nothing of discrepancy will be found in Sacred Scripture, nor will there be found any statement in opposition to any other statement” (qtd. in Jurgens, , Vol. 2, pg. 75, 1106The Faith of the Early Fathers).

Jerome (A.D. 385): “[A] report suddenly reached me that certain contemptible creatures were deliberately assailing me with the charge that I had endeavored to correct passages in the gospels, against the authority of the ancients and the opinion of the whole world. …] [L]et them take my answer as follows: I am not so dull-witted nor so coarsely ignorant …] I am not, I repeat, so ignorant as to suppose that any of the Lord’s words is either in need of correction or is not divinely inspired; but the Latin manuscripts of the Scriptures are proved to be faulty by the variations which all of them exhibit, and my object has been to restore them to the form of the Greek original” (, 1Letter 27).

Jerome (A.D. 386): “Holy Scripture, I reply first of all, cannot contradict itself. One book cannot invalidate the drift of the whole. A single verse cannot annul the meaning of a book” (, 6Letter 46).

Augustine (A.D. 391?): “Whatever [scientists] can really demonstrate to be true of physical nature, we must show to be capable of reconciliation with our Scriptures” (, Bk. 1, 21:41On the Literal Meaning of Genesis).
 
Augustine (A.D. 391?): “If it is necessary – and it is necessary - to understand these two statements [of Scripture] so as to find both consistent and not conflicting with each other, it is also equally necessary that both of them be not in contradiction with the demonstrations [of science]” (, Bk. 2, 9:21On the Literal Meaning of Genesis).

Augustine (A.D. 392-418): “[Y]ou understand not, you fail to understand, canst not attain: honour God’s Scripture, honour God’s Word, though it be not plain: in reverence wait for understanding. Be not wanton to accuse either the obscurity or seeming contradiction of Scripture. There is nothing in it contradictory: somewhat there is which is obscure, not in order that it may be denied you, but that it may exercise him that shall afterward receive it. When then it is obscure, that is the Physician’s doing, that you may knock. He willed that you should be exercised in knocking; He willed it, that He might open to you when you knock” (, 10Exposition on Psalm 147).

Augustine (A.D. 395): “For it seems to me that most disastrous consequences must follow upon our believing that anything false is found in the sacred books: that is to say, that the men by whom the Scripture has been given to us, and committed to writing, did put down in these books anything false. It is one question whether it may be at any time the duty of a good man to deceive; but it is another question whether it can have been the duty of a writer of Holy Scripture to deceive: nay, it is not another question— it is no question at all. For if you once admit into such a high sanctuary of authority one false statement as made in the way of duty, there will not be left a single sentence of those books which, if appearing to any one difficult in practice or hard to believe, may not by the same fatal rule be explained away, as a statement in which, intentionally, and under a sense of duty, the author declared what was not true” (, 3, 3Letter 28).

Jerome (A.D. 398): “[T]here are many things in Scripture which sound incredible and yet are true” (, 2Letter 72 [The full text is not available, but this quote is excerpted by the commentary provided.]).

Jerome (A.D. 399): I know that a difference must be made between ***the apostles ***and all other preachers. The former always speak the truth; but the latter being men sometimes go astray” (, 7Letter 82).

Augustine (A.D. 400): “[T]here is a distinct boundary line separating all productions subsequent to apostolic times from the authoritative canonical books of the Old and New Testaments. The authority of these books …] claims the submission of every faithful and pious mind. If we are perplexed by an apparent contradiction in Scripture, it is not allowable to say, The author of this book is mistaken; but either the manuscript is faulty, or the translation is wrong, or you have not understood. …] Scripture has a sacredness peculiar to itself. …] In consequence of the distinctive peculiarity of the sacred writings, we are bound to receive as true whatever the canon shows to have been said by even one prophet, or apostle, or evangelist. Otherwise, not a single page will be left for the guidance of human fallibility, if contempt for the wholesome authority of the canonical books either puts an end to that authority altogether, or involves it in hopeless confusion” (, Bk. 11, 5Against Faustus).
 
Augustine (A.D. 400): “As to Enoch and Elias and Moses, our belief is determined …] by the declarations of Scripture, resting as they do on foundations of the strongest and surest evidence. …] [W]e can have no reason for doubting what on the high authority of Scripture is related of [Elias], unless we limit the power of God to things which we are familiar with. …] To give you in a word, without argument, the true reason of our faith, as regards Elias having been caught up to heaven from the earth, though only a man, and as regards Christ being truly born of a virgin, and truly dying on the cross, our belief in both cases is grounded on the declaration of Holy Scripture, which it is piety to believe, and impiety to disbelieve. …] The reason of our believing Him to have been born of the Virgin Mary, is not that He could not otherwise have appeared among men in a true body, but because it is so written in the Scripture, which we must believe in order to be Christians, or to be saved. We believe, then, that Christ was born of the Virgin Mary, because it is so written in the Gospel; we believe that He died on the cross, because it is so written in the Gospel; we believe that both His birth and death were real, because the Gospel is no fiction. …] But this may be confidently affirmed, that what took place was exactly as we are told in the Gospel narrative …]. We place the authority of the Gospel above all heretical discussions; and we admire the counsel of divine wisdom more than any counsel of any creature. …] The things are true; and the accurate narrative of them is intended to instruct whoever believes in Christ’s gospel in the truth, not to delude him with falsehoods” (, Bk. 26, 3, 5, 7-8Against Faustus).

Augustine (A.D. 405): “For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am perplexed by anything which appears to me opposed to truth, I do not hesitate to suppose that either the manuscript is faulty, or the translator has not caught the meaning of what was said, or I myself have failed to understand it …] I believe, my brother, that this is your own opinion as well as mine. I do not need to say that I do not suppose you to wish your books to be read like those of prophets or of apostles, concerning which it would be wrong to doubt that they are free from error” (, 1, 3Letter 82).

:gopray2:Every word of God proves true” (Proverbs 30:5)! :gopray2:
 
Pete,

Great posts! Thank you for your contributions. I think you have done an excellent job defending the Catholic faith, and I especially like all the texts from the fathers that you provided. 👍 👍
 
Shlomey
Thanks for posting in this thread. I like to think I’m not the only Catholic who thinks the faith can be defended rationally.

As I said in my first post I scanned some of this after a google search and I read similar arguments if not the same, to what you posted. One problem with the argument that rabbits could be cud chewers by reason that they eat their dung is that pigs would then be in the same boat. They also eat their dung. Pigs are described as animals that do not chew the cud in Leviticus. Hence we have still seem to have the problem.
So I’ve thought about this, because it seems pretyt clear that the Church teaches the Bible is free of any error. Therefore, it must be reliable. If it is not free of error, one may ask what the Spirit of truth was thinking…

Anyhow, as for the pig and the rabbit/hare:

Pigs may eat feces, but it does not seem to be something that they have to do. It seems to be done in stress situation, not as part of their natural eating process. However, rabbits and hares do have this natural need to eat their feces.
Cecotropes (also “caecotrophes”) also known as “night faeces”, are the product of the cecum, a part of the digestive system in mammals of the order lagomorpha, which includes two families: Leporidae (hares and rabbits), and Ochotonidae (pikas). Cecotropes are passed through the intestines and subsequently reingested for added nutrients in a process known as “caecotrophy”, “caecophagy” “pseudorumination”, “refection”, or “coprophagy”. Reingestion is also practised by a few species of rodent (such as the capybara and guinea pig), a marsupial and a primate.[1]
No pigs.
Coprophagous insects consume and redigest the feces of large animals. These feces contain substantial amounts of semi-digested food (herbivores’ digestive systems are especially inefficient). The most famous feces-eating insect is the dung-beetle and the most ubiquitous is the fly.
Capybara, rabbits, hamsters and other related species do not have a complex ruminant digestive system. Instead they extract more nutrition from grass by giving their food a second pass through the gut. Soft fecal pellets of partially digested food are excreted and generally consumed immediately. They also produce normal droppings, which are not eaten.
Young elephants, pandas, koalas, and hippos eat the feces of their mother to obtain the bacteria required to properly digest vegetation found on the savanna and in the jungle. When they are born, their intestines do not contain these bacteria (they are completely sterile). Without them, they would be unable to get any nutritional value from plants.
Gorillas eat their own feces and the feces of other gorillas.
Hamsters eat their own droppings, which are thought to be a source of vitamins B and K, produced by bacteria in the gut. Apes have been observed eating horse feces for the salt content. Monkeys have been observed eating elephant feces. Coprophagia also has been observed in the naked mole rat.
No pigs either.
*pigs will eat anything you give them whether it be potatoes, mud, feces, or even their own fetuses they will eat it
islam forbidding the consumption of pigs is also very scientific, try researching it online *
Pigs will only eat their own faeces if given ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE to eat. They’re very intelligent animals and now the difference between faeces and food. They are often thought of as ‘unclean’ (and hence some religions ban the eating of pork) because they like to roll in mud which the naive take as being ‘dirty’. This is in fact to keep cool in hot weather as they have no sweat glands. When they are absolutely starving they will eat their faeces rather than starve to death.
This is backed by this one (German):
Tatsächlich** fressen Schweine aber nur dann Kot, wenn sie keine andere Nahrung finden**
Seems more an issue of desperation, not biological “design”.

Seems to me, the Bible got it right.
 
I just read something from Pope Pius IX from his encyclical Singulari Quidem regarding our humility when approaching understanding of things divine.

“The Church teaches and proclaims that if sometimes we can use human wisdom to study the divine word, our wisdom should not for that reason proudly usurp to itself the right of master. Rather, it should act as an obedient and submissive servant, afraid of erring if it goes first and afraid of losing the light of interior virtue and the straight path of truth by following the consequences of exterior words.”

A prayer I always pray before reading the Scriptures:
– Psalm 25:5 Direct me in thy truth, and teach me; for thou art God my Savior.

Let us all (including especially myself) pray for humility when reading and interpreting God’s Word and always remain submissive and obedient to the authority of the Church. :signofcross: :gopray2:
 
Hey Joe! May God bless you on this journey. Inerrancy is a teaching near and dear to my heart. I hope that my response is a blessing for you.

The two things I’d be curious to know here are
  1. What studies have been conducted to determine that the rabbit doesn’t chew his poop at all but swallows his poop pellets whole?
  2. When the pig eats his own poop (or other animals’ poop for that matter :)), is this part of a biological process which is seemingly necessary for him to get the nutrition he needs, as with the rabbit, or is he just being nasty? He’s probably just being nasty. I’ve seen a pig peeing and another pig walk up and start drinking from the urine fountain. They’re pretty gross.
Pete thanks for the responses and the spirit of your responses. 👍

As for question 1) I read it on the internet. 🙂 So no not a great source but indeed everything I read about this issue comes from the internet. I have no firsthand knowledge about the way these animals digest food. But the other person in the debate did not dispute this allegation. I think it may have been JP Holding but I’m not sure I admit to some skimming. But again let me be clear I’m not claiming its impossible that this account can’t be the answer. I’m just saying that for these two reasons make me think this explanation is dim prospect.

As for question 2) Shlomey posted some information on this but I’m not sure what the source was. I heard conflicting views on the pig’s proclivity to eat its own excrement. From what I gathered Pigs do get some vitamins from eating excrement. Their own and others. I’m not sure that rabbits must eat their excrement to survive. I think they do eat some sort of special excrement from time to time that’s clear. But I’m not sure what difference it makes. If on this theory they both bring up what has been swallowed then they should be classified the same way. I mean I find it unlikely that the author knew about the different vitamins. (Note I say unlikely, not impossible.)

I would say another reason I am hesitant to endorse this theory is that they are trying to declare certain animals clean and unclean. What we are saying is that the author thought the rabbit was clean in so far as it ate its own excrement. Now I know the distinctions seem to have little to do with our own notions of clean and unclean but I still have to wonder on this.

In the end I think there are various theories to explain how the original author may not have been in error:
  1. They classified animals based on appearance but labeled the classification based on the fact that many animals in that classification do raise up and re swallow what was chewed is the best contender. (see the carpetbagger analogy on theocid’s site)
2)This idea that they thought rabbits chewed the cud because they ate their own excrement I just don’t find convincing - but I can’t rule it out.
  1. I also don’t think we are mistranslating the language but again I can’t rule it out as it is not my field of study.
4)Moreover I don’t think Moses means us to think of rabbits figuratively or symbolically but again I can’t rule it out.
  1. the idea that they meant a different animal same
  2. copyist error.
  3. we misunderstand (perhaps this is related to 4 above)
  4. something else is going on that it does save it from error
And then there is of course:
  1. the author made a mistake
Ok this is how I see it. We can evaluate all these potential theories the trouble spot is # 9. Now it seems to me that the Pope is indicating that it would be heretical to say that when we add up the probabilities of the first 8 explanations being true we only come to say 35% and we therefore put the probability of 9 at 65%. That is we would say 9 seems to be true, which is a problem.

What if we put the probability of 1-8 at 99% but leave a 1% chance that 9 is correct? We wouldn’t believe that there was an error here but we may have trouble overall if there were many such cases. Consider if there were say 10 such cases where you figured the chance of error was about 20%. I’m not sure what you would calculate the chance of at least one error to be but it would probably be greater than 50%. BTW I think this is what Saint John Christsosm likely meant. But more on that next post.
 
Good evening, Joe!
Pete thanks for the responses and the spirit of your responses. 👍

As for question 1) I read it on the internet. 🙂 So no not a great source but indeed everything I read about this issue comes from the internet. I have no firsthand knowledge about the way these animals digest food. But the other person in the debate did not dispute this allegation. I think it may have been JP Holding but I’m not sure I admit to some skimming. But again let me be clear I’m not claiming its impossible that this account can’t be the answer. I’m just saying that for these two reasons make me think this explanation is dim prospect.

As for question 2) Shlomey posted some information on this but I’m not sure what the source was. I heard conflicting views on the pig’s proclivity to eat its own excrement. From what I gathered Pigs do get some vitamins from eating excrement. Their own and others. I’m not sure that rabbits must eat their excrement to survive. I think they do eat some sort of special excrement from time to time that’s clear. But I’m not sure what difference it makes. If on this theory they both bring up what has been swallowed then they should be classified the same way. I mean I find it unlikely that the author knew about the different vitamins. (Note I say unlikely, not impossible.)
Skimming. 🙂 Yeah, I think it’s improbable also; but there might be something there!

I really think it has to do with the chewing motion that rabbits make. I used to own two rabbits and I would say that they chew the cud just because it looks like they do with the way they wiggle their faces. Also helpful to keep in mind, the etymology of the Hebrew words has to do with bringing up the cud, or what have you. But a fallacy would occur if we forced the Hebrews into using this word as it is defined etymologically, that is, into using it to denote a “bringing up” of something. For example, “secretary” comes from the word for “secret” and someone entrusted with that secret. But we typically don’t have this meaning in mind when we use it and many may not even know that that’s where the word came from.

I still think pigs are just nasty. They’ll eat anything! One even tried to eat my wife’s leg once! And I’d probably get vitamins from eating my own poop too. But I won’t stick around for that study. 🙂
I would say another reason I am hesitant to endorse this theory is that they are trying to declare certain animals clean and unclean. What we are saying is that the author thought the rabbit was clean in so far as it ate its own excrement. Now I know the distinctions seem to have little to do with our own notions of clean and unclean but I still have to wonder on this.
That’s funny; and a good point.

“You shall have a place outside the camp, and you shall go out to it. And you shall have a trowel with your tools, and when you sit down outside, you shall dig a hole with it and turn back and cover up your excrement. Because the Lord your God walks in the midst of your camp, to deliver you and to give up your enemies before you, therefore your camp must be holy, so that He may not see anything indecent among you and turn away from you” (Deut 23:12-14).
 
In the end I think there are various theories to explain how the original author may not have been in error:
  1. They classified animals based on appearance but labeled the classification based on the fact that many animals in that classification do raise up and re swallow what was chewed is the best contender. (see the carpetbagger analogy on theocid’s site)
2)This idea that they thought rabbits chewed the cud because they ate their own excrement I just don’t find convincing - but I can’t rule it out.
  1. I also don’t think we are mistranslating the language but again I can’t rule it out as it is not my field of study.
4)Moreover I don’t think Moses means us to think of rabbits figuratively or symbolically but again I can’t rule it out.
  1. the idea that they meant a different animal same
  2. copyist error.
  3. we misunderstand (perhaps this is related to 4 above)
  4. something else is going on that it does save it from error
And then there is of course:
  1. the author made a mistake
Ok this is how I see it. We can evaluate all these potential theories the trouble spot is # 9. Now it seems to me that the Pope is indicating that it would be heretical to say that when we add up the probabilities of the first 8 explanations being true we only come to say 35% and we therefore put the probability of 9 at 65%. That is we would say 9 seems to be true, which is a problem.
Maybe a word about probabilities will also help. Skeptics (not you) use the criterion of historical probability to say that miracles can’t happen because, for any given event, the miracle will be the least probable explanation. Therefore, the skeptic cannot account for miracles within an evaluation of history because reconstructions of history, they say, are most appropriately based on the probability of something having happened as documented.

However, the not-so-obvious problem with going with what is most probable for any given event is that the most probable thing doesn’t always happen. So if we always go with what appears to us to be the most probable, then our reconstruction is saying that improbable things never happen and this itself is the greatest improbability… not to mention that it simply cannot account for reality. My brother-in-law’s name is Thomas Thompson and he lives on Thomas Avenue. The street is not named after him. The probability for this happening is very small. It almost sounds made up. But it’s true! And so what may appear to be a reasonable approach, that of going with whatever seems the most probable in any given situation, is actually self-defeating in that we end up adopting the most improbable reconstructed conglomeration of everything probable. 🙂

#9 is out because of faith. It is not possible to solve all of the apparent contradictions of Scripture before one comes to believe that it is free from all error. Christians believe that Scripture is free from error because they believe that God is the Primary Author and He simply cannot err. And so they approach the text with an a priori conviction that only the truth will be presented to them. The skeptic, of course, takes the opposite approach.

In the end, the true solutions to all of the apparent contradictions will also be the most reasonable; but in the meantime, we are satisfied with solutions – some provisional and erroneous, some true – in the case of some “contradictions,” and we suspend judgment in the case of others. I was a skeptic once in this regard and have been provided with many satisfying solutions. Over time I was given enough solutions to enough problems until, one day, God blessed me with faith in His Word. But there are other cases where I am still suspending judgment and believe that Paul is speaking to me on this issue… “God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained” (Phil 3:15-16). 🙂

May God be with you, my brother!
 
4)Moreover I don’t think Moses means us to think of rabbits figuratively or symbolically but again I can’t rule it out.
Along this line of thought, you may be interested in the interpretation offered in The Epistle of Barnabas:

You shall not, he says, eat the hare. Wherefore? You shall not be a corrupter of boys, nor like such. Because the hare multiplies, year by year, the places of its conception; for as many years as it lives so many it has. …] Take a full and firm grasp of this spiritual knowledge. But Moses says still further, You shall eat every animal that is cloven-footed and ruminant. What does he mean? [The ruminant animal denotes him] who, on receiving food, recognizes Him that nourishes him, and being satisfied by Him, is visibly made glad. Well spoke [Moses], having respect to the commandment. What, then, does he mean? That we ought to join ourselves to those that fear the Lord, those who meditate in their heart on the commandment which they have received, those who both utter the judgments of the Lord and observe them, those who know that meditation is a work of gladness, and who ruminate upon the word of the Lord. But what means the cloven-footed? That the righteous man also walks in this world, yet looks forward to the holy state [to come]. Behold how well Moses legislated. But how was it possible for them to understand or comprehend these things? We then, rightly understanding his commandments, explain them as the Lord intended. For this purpose He circumcised our ears and our hearts, that we might understand these things.

Insofar as the rabbit leads us to meditate upon the Word of God, this far do we eat him. But because he lacks the cloven foot, he prevents us from looking “forward to the holy state [to come]” and causes us to forget that we are but “strangers and exiles on the earth… seeking a homeland” (Heb 11:13-14); and so this far do we avoid him: we avoid him altogether! Not to mention all of the sexual immorality! :eek:

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you!
 
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