Is the war in Iraq an unjust war?

[planter654]

Yes! it is unjust war? Greed for oil period! Iraq did not take down 911 the terroist did. They fully knew that! They used it as excuse to start a war there. For a number of reasons oil #1, to be there in the center of other nations around them gives them power. But God has a great plan, trust in God and believe in him!

They say I have heard, that the “sin we commit is the very sin that punishes us”! Oil, money, greed, power, idols, idols, idols. They say money is the root of all evil! Money buys idols, we become slaves to our idols— the point of doing anything even lie, steal, fraud, etc. even destroy the earth to make them and human lives. Sad don’t you think?

But I ask look at what is happening with economy of US?

We never know what blessings we have been giving, until ?

God Bless

 

[Verisimilitude]

I’ll write a response to your post next time I’m on-line. Feel free to add to the above if you desire.

These are the unanswered questions that have not been addressed in support of the Iraq war.

Please explain your rationalization for continued military aid and sending billions of borrowed US income tax dollars to Egypt, Arabia, and Pakistan and now Iraq and Afghanistan. Is it Just to give them means to suppress the majority of their citizens that call their leaders corrupt because of our influence and who we call dictators? (It seems to me like holding the mans wife while he beats her.)

Is it Just to send our CIA into their countries to influence their democratic elections? Would you object to that here?

Tell me what objectives have not been meet given in 2002/2003 by this administration as reason to go in the first place.

Can you describe the benefits to America and how creating a democratic Islamic government serves our purpose? Would you object if they freely elect al-Sadr as Prime Minister?

Explain to me your view of the ideology we are fighting and how it is unrelated to Islam itself.

Who specifically asked us for help justifing this war in your opinion? Why didn’t the UN- irrelevant as I think them- support our efforts?

What actual threat did Saddam pose in delivering WMD’s to America? Was he any more likely to send out suicide bombers from Iraq to America than ‘radicals’ in Egypt or Jordan or Arabia?

How different is al-qaeda to the MS-13 gang in your opinion? Is it only becasue bin Laden was more successfull in one fell swoop than years of gang violence in America?

When Catholic pro-war apologists give reason in support of Iraq my hypocrite-meter starts to alarm. It did when I was giving them. I see it as a matter of personal integrity not to remain a hypocrite when reason and logic fail the arguments as the justifications of Iraq fails. Because John Paul the Great did not chisel into stone tablets his condemnation you take it as equally Just to dismiss it as a legitimate disagreement. The reasonablness of the pro-war position does not rate a legitimate disagreement. I think you- the pro-war crowd- have created a golden calf instead.

 

[RWMorris]

… When Catholic pro-war apologists give reason in support of Iraq my hypocrite-meter starts to alarm. It did when I was giving them. I see it as a matter of personal integrity not to remain a hypocrite when reason and logic fail the arguments as the justifications of Iraq fails. Because John Paul the Great did not chisel into stone tablets his condemnation you take it as equally Just to dismiss it as a legitimate disagreement. The reasonablness of the pro-war position does not rate a legitimate disagreement. I think you- the pro-war crowd- have created a golden calf instead.

Since I have failed your hypocite-meter alarm test from the start, why should I waste keystrokes responding. You ask me questions then disqualify any answers before I give them with the caveat that you know my answers and they will be wrong.

As far as my disagreement with the Popes on this issue, Pope Benedict called my disagreement legitimate. If you have a problem with that, take it up with him.

It should be the highest ambition of every American to extend his views beyond himself, and to bear in mind that his conduct will not only affect himself, his country, and his immediate posterity; but that its influence may be co-extensive with the world, and stamp political happiness or misery on ages yet unborn.

• George Washington, 1789

I am never comfortable with a person’s support of violence to an end. Neither am I comfortable with a person’s claim to righteousness.

 

[RWMorris]

If you are interested in this topic, you might want to take a look at the book “Bin Laden, la verite interdite,” by Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie.

Thanks, Bob, I’ll see if I can find a copy.

 

[RWMorris]

Oh, what the heck.

Originally Posted by Verisimilitude forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Please explain your rationalization for continued military aid and sending billions of borrowed US income tax dollars to Egypt, Arabia, and Pakistan and now Iraq and Afghanistan. Is it Just to give them means to suppress the majority of their citizens that call their leaders corrupt because of our influence and who we call dictators? (It seems to me like holding the mans wife while he beats her.)

Is it Just to send our CIA into their countries to influence their democratic elections? Would you object to that here?
*

What does aid to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iraq, or Afghanistan have to do the war in Iraq being just or unjust? I haven’t tried to rationalize what you are talking about.

You mean the bumbling fools in the CIA are trying to influence elections somewhere beside the US? They can’t even do that here, what makes you think they can do it elsewhere?

 

[Verisimilitude]

Since I have failed your hypocite-meter alarm test from the start,

The sound is deafening. You have no ears to hear it.

why should I waste keystrokes responding. You ask me questions then disqualify any answers before I give them with the caveat that you know my answers and they will be wrong.

Weak. You don’t even try.

As far as my disagreement with the Popes on this issue, Pope Benedict called my disagreement legitimate. If you have a problem with that, take it up with him.

He recognizes/excuses your fear. I spoke of this in an earlier post to another.

I am never comfortable with a person’s support of violence to an end. Neither am I comfortable with a person’s claim to righteousness.

You still support violence without cause and that is why the hypocrite alarm is sounding. Only irrational fear excuses it if hypocrite does not apply. It used to be recognized as noble and honorble to admit ones mistakes without the old ‘holier than thou’ charge that is used to stiffle debate. Similiar to the charge or racist. I felt the personal shame of my own hypocricy. It is still fresh.

Did you ever smoke/drink much? Ever try and quit? It is all you talk about for a while because you try very hard to correct the past ill you caused yourself by dangerous habits if that is the reason you quit. I am like that. There is a significant reason I no longer think like you do. I have given them and you have not refuted them.

Surprise me with new answers. Show me the just reason for this war in response to my legitimate and never answered questions. Leave your grandkids in the kiddie pool area and swim out into deeper water. Since you joke about beating your wife let’s have a chuckle at 4000 dead US soldier/Marines, 6 and a half years of war, and the promise of peace in a nation never known for it. Forgive my agressivness. Enlighten me with your wisdom.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Oh, what the heck.
What does aid to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iraq, or Afghanistan have to do the war in Iraq being just or unjust? I haven’t tried to rationalize what you are talking about.

That is becoming obvious. It is reason given by those who attacked us. OBL does not like our support for the royal family in Arabia. He does not like our bases in Arabia. He is the one who attacked us and that is the reason the President and you say we are in Iraq…to fight that ideology.

The aid is used to oppress their people unless you think the Arabian and Egyptian governments are not violent religious governments helping us against the ideology of bin Laden. A Muslim poster in another thread was happy to correct someones error in suggesting that somethink like 50% in Arabia supported OBL. It is only 15% that think a mass murderer is respectable. Why isnt that offensive to you? If the forced taxation of the American people to send that money, borrwed as it is from China to Muslim dicators isn’t being hypocritical in the WOT I don’t know what is.

You mean the bumbling fools in the CIA are trying to influence elections somewhere beside the US? They can’t even do that here, what makes you think they can do it elsewhere?

Bumbling or not they do it and were successful in Persia 1953 and elsewhere including here with our own Presidents. We used to at least pretend it was an unsavory tactic. Why then is it illegal for all those Chinese contributions to be given in our politics? Don’t you feel even the little bit hypocritical to that?

Or does our nobility excuse it? OBL’s charge is legitimate and you don’t care because the ends justifies the means. Stopping that aid would take OBL’s excuse away from him and remove the reason he continues to plan attacks.

He had no just cause to attack us just as we have no cause to attack Iraq despite whatever grievance or fear you express.

 

[bobzills]

Yes! it is unjust war? Greed for oil period! Iraq did not take down 911 the terroist did. They fully knew that! They used it as excuse to start a war there. For a number of reasons oil #1, to be there in the center of other nations around them gives them power.

This pretty well reflects my opinion also.

 

[RWMorris]

That is becoming obvious. It is reason given by those who attacked us. OBL does not like our support for the royal family in Arabia. He does not like our bases in Arabia. He is the one who attacked us and that is the reason the President and you say we are in Iraq…to fight that ideology.

The aid is used to oppress their people unless you think the Arabian and Egyptian governments are not violent religious governments helping us against the ideology of bin Laden. A Muslim poster in another thread was happy to correct someones error in suggesting that somethink like 50% in Arabia supported OBL. It is only 15% that think a mass murderer is respectable. Why isnt that offensive to you? If the forced taxation of the American people to send that money, borrwed as it is from China to Muslim dicators isn’t being hypocritical in the WOT I don’t know what is.

I personally don’t care why OBL does what he does. If you do care you are empowering him and his ideology. I am glad that only 15% of Saudi citizens support OBL. I wish it was zero. I don’t agree with you economic analysis and this thread is not about that.

Bumbling or not they do it and were successful in Persia 1953 and elsewhere including here with our own Presidents. We used to at least pretend it was an unsavory tactic. Why then is it illegal for all those Chinese contributions to be given in our politics? Don’t you feel even the little bit hypocritical to that?

Or does our nobility excuse it? OBL’s charge is legitimate and you don’t care because the ends justifies the means. Stopping that aid would take OBL’s excuse away from him and remove the reason he continues to plan attacks.

He had no just cause to attack us just as we have no cause to attack Iraq despite whatever grievance or fear you express.

Are you suggesting that Jimmy Carter’s election was a result of CIA interference? You give the CIA far too much credit. It is not illegal for the Chinese to contribute to our political process, the recipient just has to follow disclosure laws. OBL’s charge is not legit. This thread is not about any of these questions.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I personally don’t care why OBL does what he does. If you do care you are empowering him and his ideology. I am glad that only 15% of Saudi citizens support OBL. I wish it was zero. I don’t agree with you economic analysis and this thread is not about that.

You don’t care? That is your wisdom? Stunning. The plank in your eye parable didn’t register with you, huh? Do you think they no longer apply? What is there to disagree regarding the economics? The President has borrowed money from the Chinese and others to pay for the war and has passed on that obligation to the American people to be repaid by our taxes in generatiosn to come.

You are glad it is only 4 million Saudi Arabian citizens praise bin Laden as an honorable man. Oh happy day it isn’t 11 million. What % of Pakistan and Egypt mass-murder loving members of Islam brings more joy to your heart? What % of the billion Mohammedans is ‘good’? Who cares what they think anyway. 5% of all Mohammedans is over 50 million. How large is our military?

Your wish is not very comforting as a deterrent and as far as empowering him and his ideology it is the pro-war crowd fulfilling the scripture of the Koran. What is legitimate is a matter of perspective. Some guy punches you in the nose and you don’t ask why he punched you, instead you proceed to beat him senseless. Maybe you were standing on his foot as the reason he punched you. He shouldn’t have punched you in the nose but you shouldn’t have been standing on his foot.

Are you suggesting that Jimmy Carter’s election was a result of CIA interference? You give the CIA far too much credit. It is not illegal for the Chinese to contribute to our political process, the recipient just has to follow disclosure laws. OBL’s charge is not legit. This thread is not about any of these questions.

You just flat out ignore the hypocrisy of our actions to our own ideals. Why not just object to foreign influence and any outside manipulation of all elections? You put far too much emphasis on civil legality and forget spiritual intent. Jesus accused the Pharisees of the same thing. Who are you to tell bin Laden his patriotism for Arabia is not equal to yours of America? How would you feel if Bush invited the Chinese to build a base in LA so they could protect us from MS-13 gangs here illegally from Mexico? Your anger would be legit wouldn’t it? It would not legitimize you killing yourself with others in China to take revenge on our government for inviting a foreign power on our soil.

This thread is about why the war in Iraq is unjust. You picked this one question to answer because you see no relationship to it and Iraq. US support for Islamic governments that support the oppression of millions, and US presence in their holy land is a cause given by those who attack us. Don’t suppress them by their dictators. Let them declare their hate for us a a nation so we can attack it rightly if that is how the majority feel. You may have no personal interest as to why they do what they do, but they have an interest in what you are doing. I would pull our bases for reasons other than at the behest of OBL, but the effect would be the same. It takes away their excuse to fight us. You think it would embolden the enemy. Here is where I don’t care. They can beat their chest all they want in Iraq, and Pakistan and Egypt, but they wouldn’t be killing anymore US soldiers in a undeclared religious war on Iraqi soil and I would be sabving billions of $ we don’t have to begin with. Let them swim the ocean to attack us here if they are able. Let them buy weapons from others without our money. I trust we could defend ourselves better.

You seem to be floundering in the deeper water. Shall we go back to the kiddie pool or do you care to swim further out and answer some of the better questions?

Try these two:
Can you describe the benefits to America and how creating a democratic Islamic government serves our purpose? Would you object if they freely elect al-Sadr as Prime Minister?

Tell me what objectives have not been meet given in 2002/2003 by this administration as reason to go in the first place.

 

[RWMorris]

I really hate these point by point replies and rebuttals. They usually serve no purpose but to dilute the discussion. This is the last time I’m doing it! At least until the next time I do it.

You don’t care?

No, I don’t care why he killed 3,000 people

That is your wisdom? Stunning.

Thank you.

The plank in your eye parable didn’t register with you, huh?

I’m not trying to remove the plank in his eye.

Do you think they no longer apply?

No, it doesn’t.

What is there to disagree regarding the economics?

You are kidding, right?

The President has borrowed money from the Chinese and others to pay for the war and has passed on that obligation to the American people to be repaid by our taxes in generatiosn to come.

I agree that we need to greatly reduce taxes and balance the budget. Anything other than that deserves another thread.

You are glad it is only 4 million Saudi Arabian citizens praise bin Laden as an honorable man. Oh happy day it isn’t 11 million.

I would prefer it be zero, but 15% is better than 50%, or 90%.

What % of Pakistan and Egypt mass-murder loving members of Islam brings more joy to your heart? What % of the billion Mohammedans is ‘good’? Who cares what they think anyway. 5% of all Mohammedans is over 50 million. How large is our military?

Hey, you are stealing my argument, no fair! I’ve always maintained that if only 10% of Islam is radical, that is way too many.

Your wish is not very comforting as a deterrent and as far as empowering him and his ideology it is the pro-war crowd fulfilling the scripture of the Koran.

Are you now denying that you empower the radicals by caring about their motivations?

What is legitimate is a matter of perspective.

No it is not, there is only one truth. Are you saying their truth is morally equivalent to our truth, Jesus?

Some guy punches you in the nose and you don’t ask why he punched you, instead you proceed to beat him senseless. Maybe you were standing on his foot as the reason he punched you. He shouldn’t have punched you in the nose but you shouldn’t have been standing on his foot.

Either way I’m getting punched and he’s getting beat senseless.

You just flat out ignore the hypocrisy of our actions to our own ideals. Why not just object to foreign influence and any outside manipulation of all elections?

I do object.

You put far too much emphasis on civil legality and forget spiritual intent. Jesus accused the Pharisees of the same thing. Who are you to tell bin Laden his patriotism for Arabia is not equal to yours of America?

I don’t call OBL’s motivations patriotism. He doesn’t call his motivations patriotism. I don’t get your point on this.

How would you feel if Bush invited the Chinese to build a base in LA so they could protect us from MS-13 gangs here illegally from Mexico? Your anger would be legit wouldn’t it? It would not legitimize you killing yourself with others in China to take revenge on our government for inviting a foreign power on our soil.

Has the MS-13 gangs bombed and killed 3,000 people in Beijing? Is Bush torturing and murdering millions of Americans? Did he plan and an attempt the assassination of the Chinese national leader? Is Bush making regular threats that the destruction if China must happen for the world to be a better place? Is Bush paying the families of suicide bombers rewards for killing Chinese?

This thread is about why the war in Iraq is unjust. You picked this one question to answer because you see no relationship to it and Iraq. US support for Islamic governments that support the oppression of millions, and US presence in their holy land is a cause given by those who attack us. Don’t suppress them by their dictators. Let them declare their hate for us a a nation so we can attack it rightly if that is how the majority feel. You may have no personal interest as to why they do what they do, but they have an interest in what you are doing. I would pull our bases for reasons other than at the behest of OBL, but the effect would be the same. It takes away their excuse to fight us. You think it would embolden the enemy. Here is where I don’t care. They can beat their chest all they want in Iraq, and Pakistan and Egypt, but they wouldn’t be killing anymore US soldiers in a undeclared religious war on Iraqi soil and I would be sabving billions of $ we don’t have to begin with. Let them swim the ocean to attack us here if they are able. Let them buy weapons from others without our money. I trust we could defend ourselves better.

How about this? We agree to leave as soon as the Arabs turn over OBL and his officers. If they will do that, I’d agree to leave.

You seem to be floundering in the deeper water. Shall we go back to the kiddie pool or do you care to swim further out and answer some of the better questions?

You noticed … glug … gulp … glug …

 

[RWMorris]

Try these two:
Can you describe the benefits to America and how creating a democratic Islamic government serves our purpose? Would you object if they freely elect al-Sadr as Prime Minister?

First of all, it has been the experience of most of the world that free countries rarely, if ever, war with one another. They tend to compete economically, and the good thing about that is economics is not a zero sum competition. Even countries that loose competitively, gain economically. It would be to our benefit, and the Iraqi’s if they were a democracy. They sit on close to 300,000,000,000 barrels of oil, and no one has even a clue as to how much natural gas. It is to everyone’s benefit, including the Iraqi’s. Plus, they are rich culturally and would be a huge success in the tourist industry. Plus, they have a fairly well educated populace and probably wouldn’t be slouches in manufacturing and technology.

I would not object if al-Sadr became a national leader. He wouldn’t be the first terrorist to make the transition to honorable national leader.

Tell me what objectives have not been meet given in 2002/2003 by this administration as reason to go in the first place.

Just about all our objectives have been met, some a little more than others, but I’m pretty satisfied. Now if Iraq truly invites us to stay as guarantors of stability for 10, 20 years, how can we say no. Turkey, a predominately Muslim country, has fairly well made the transition to democracy and is a respected country in the world. Not perfect, but heck, who is perfect? Why can’t Iraq make that same transition?

 

[bobzills]

Now if Iraq truly invites us to stay as guarantors of stability for 10, 20 years, how can we say no.

Is it the people of Iraq who are 100% inviting the USA to stay, or is it a bunch of puppets set up in Iraq by Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush?

 

[Verisimilitude]

No, it doesn’t…

This tells me more than anything you have said.

 

[RWMorris]

Is it the people of Iraq who are 100% inviting the USA to stay, or is it a bunch of puppets set up in Iraq by Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush?

That is why I qualified my response with the word “truly”. Not many politicians are above fudging numbers to reflect their own view. I didn’t just say that, did I? Man, I hate irony! See Verisimilitude, you did have an effect on me.

 

[Verisimilitude]

First of all, it has been the experience of most of the world that free countries rarely, if ever, war with one another. They tend to compete economically, and the good thing about that is economics is not a zero sum competition. Even countries that loose competitively, gain economically. It would be to our benefit, and the Iraqi’s if they were a democracy. They sit on close to 300,000,000,000 barrels of oil, and no one has even a clue as to how much natural gas. It is to everyone’s benefit, including the Iraqi’s. Plus, they are rich culturally and would be a huge success in the tourist industry. Plus, they have a fairly well educated populace and probably wouldn’t be slouches in manufacturing and technology.

I thought it wasn’t about oil. Your history isn’t very well understood either. None of which makes Iraq a just war. They were more educated under Saddam and touted by the West as progressive in the 80’s. This is no longer true.

I would not object if al-Sadr became a national leader. He wouldn’t be the first terrorist to make the transition to honorable national leader.

wow.

Just about all our objectives have been met, some a little more than others, but I’m pretty satisfied. Now if Iraq truly invites us to stay as guarantors of stability for 10, 20 years, how can we say no.

Easy. Say the word, no.

Turkey, a predominately Muslim country, has fairly well made the transition to democracy and is a respected country in the world.

Armenian Genocide - 1915-1918 - 1,500,000 Deaths

The Armenian Genocide, the first genocide of the 20th Century, occurred when two million Armenians living in Turkey were eliminated from their historic homeland through forced deportations and massacres…

Most observers in Turkey and abroad have viewed the Kurdish Workers’ Party (PKK) as the main threat to the Turkish state’s national unity and defense.(1) Despite recent interest in the Islamic fundamentalist Welfare Party (Refah Partisi, RP) growth, hardly any research examines the even more radical, violent Islamic movements in Turkey. (2) These most extreme groups are largely ignored because of their small size and apparently limited threat. (3)

It has been argued that the marginality of violent Islamist groups in Turkey in contrast to the vigorous armed opposition in Egypt or Algeria is due to the Turkish political system’s pluralism and the RP’s full integration into this system. (4) But the leaders and sponsors of these extremist organizations think that by violence against the secular symbols of the Turkish state, leading secular intellectuals and journalists, and representatives of “Imperialism and Zionism,” they will indeed help install an Islamic state. The limited reaction by the authorities up to 1996 and the RP’s electoral victories seemed to provide reasons for this hope.

Lebanon voted in elements of Hezbollah and the non-state of Palestine voted in elements of Hamas. How is that working out?

Not perfect, but heck, who is perfect? Why can’t Iraq make that same transition?

Because of the ideology we refuse to confront or recognize will not allow it.

Summary so far of your Just reasons to invade Iraq:
You do not care to understand the motivations of those attacking us.
You think Catholic Scripture no longer applies to Catholics.
It is not about oil, but it is about oil only as you present it.
It is ok with you for our governemnt to manipulate other governemnts as well as our own as long as they fill out the correct form.
You don’t care if murderous religious mad men get elected in Iraq.
Turkey is your example of success.
All objectives have been met so we are weaiting on Iraq to invite us to stay for the next 50 years or so, but untill they do ask we will stay anyway.
You think it is a good thing to send our borrowed income tax money on religious/theocratic dictators around the world to deny millions their freedpm of expression.

None of that sounds very American or very Christian to me. Ok, I am still not seeing how any of that supports the just war in Iraq as you do. It supports why it is not Just but that is only because I am an idiot. Silly me for looking at the much larger picture of the world to see how it affects Iraq and why we are there. Since you don’t see the connection let’s go back to Iraq itself:

Who specifically asked us for help justifing this war in your opinion? Why didn’t the UN- irrelevant as I think them- support our efforts?

What actual threat did Saddam pose in delivering WMD’s to America? Was he any more likely to send out suicide bombers from Iraq to America than ‘radicals’ in Egypt or Jordan or Arabia?

 

[bobzills]

That is why I qualified my response with the word “truly”.

Yes. This is a good qualification to keep in mind.

 

[RWMorris]

… Summary so far of your Just reasons to invade Iraq:
You do not care to understand the motivations of those attacking us.
You think Catholic Scripture no longer applies to Catholics.
It is not about oil, but it is about oil only as you present it.
It is ok with you for our governemnt to manipulate other governemnts as well as our own as long as they fill out the correct form.
You don’t care if murderous religious mad men get elected in Iraq.
Turkey is your example of success.
All objectives have been met so we are weaiting on Iraq to invite us to stay for the next 50 years or so, but untill they do ask we will stay anyway.
You think it is a good thing to send our borrowed income tax money on religious/theocratic dictators around the world to deny millions their freedpm of expression.

You’ve twisted my words around, but that’s OK. I was really worried that you actually knew what I was going to say before I said it. Now that I know that you aren’t clairvoyant I can relax. And you are a little sanctimonious, just a wee-little-bit, yeah, just a little.

Now for the real reasons I believe the invasion of Iraq was just.

1. 
   *]Hussein had WMD. We know for a fact he used them NLT 11 times since 1978. What did he do with them? Some say he destroyed them prior to 2003. Some say he sent them to Syria. You say he buried them in the sand. I don’t know what he did with them.
   *]He violated the cease-fire numerous times between 1991 and 2003. Each violation was a justifiable reason for us to resume the war.
   *]He violated the disarmament agreement in 1994 and 1996. Each violation was a justifiable reason for us to resume the war.
   *]Saddam Hussein attempted to assassinate the President in 1993, a justifiable reason for us to resume the war. (hnn.us/articles/1000.html)
   *]He financially supported terrorism.
   *]The US Congress authorized the invasion.(Public Law No: 107-243)
   Now for justification according to the CCC.
   
   1. 
      *]- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain; (See numbers 1 & 5 above)
      *]- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective; (See numbers 2, 3, 4, & 5. Plus the UN had shown it was unwilling and unable to deal with Saddam)
      *]- there must be serious prospects of success; (should be OK on this one except for all the whiners here in the US and in Europe)
      *]- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition. (The war part easily met this criteria, of course the insurgency really put us in a pickle, but mismanagement on our part and interference by Iran exacerbated the situation)
      *]The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good. (See Number 6)

 

[Verisimilitude]

You’ve twisted my words around, but that’s OK. I was really worried that you actually knew what I was going to say before I said it. Now that I know that you aren’t clairvoyant I can relax. And you are a little sanctimonious, just a wee-little-bit, yeah, just a little.

It is your twisted logic that spins without reason. Clairvoyant because I expected the below post long ago. Since when is trying to show cause a tragedy is being committed being sanctimonious? I am not the one denying Scripture to avoid its discomfort when true as it is here, nor am I the one using the religious Just War criteria to support a secular war. If you don’t like how our faith puts limits on our desires I suggest you check it at the door like so many others do.

Now for the real reasons I believe the invasion of Iraq was just.

1. 
   *]Hussein had WMD. We know for a fact he used them NLT 11 times since 1978. What did he do with them? Some say he destroyed them prior to 2003. Some say he sent them to Syria. You say he buried them in the sand. I don’t know what he did with them.
   *]He violated the cease-fire numerous times between 1991 and 2003. Each violation was a justifiable reason for us to resume the war.
   *]He violated the disarmament agreement in 1994 and 1996. Each violation was a justifiable reason for us to resume the war.
   *]Saddam Hussein attempted to assassinate the President in 1993, a justifiable reason for us to resume the war. (hnn.us/articles/1000.html)
   *]He financially supported terrorism.
   *]The US Congress authorized the invasion.(Public Law No: 107-243)
   Now for justification according to the CCC.

1. 
   So what- to all of the above. The first Gulf War was not Just either, and we failed to uphold our agreement with the Iraqi people we told to rise up and overthrow Saddam so any excuse from that to resume anything is false. Hypocrite pint #1. We gave him much of the WMD’s and technology to produce it while he fought Iran. Hypocrite point #2. The war against his own people and violation of the no-fly zones did not threaten America. Hypocrite point #3. Congress should have declared war if they wanted to avenge the assassination attempt, but did not. He paid a stipen to palestinaian murder-bomber families. Iran, Hezbollah, Syria and many others gave them the bombs and ideological indoctrination to actually commit the crimes. Hypocrite point #4. Congress abdicated its legal and moral authority to declare war by giving the President sole authority in order avoid blame if it went wrong. It went wrong and they are still to blame.
   

   1. 
      *]- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain; (See numbers 1 & 5 above) Irrelevant. America was not threatened by the agressor, Iraq. He had no means to attack us any more than Iran does now. Who asked us to fight for them?
      *]- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective; (See numbers 2, 3, 4, & 5. Plus the UN had shown it was unwilling and unable to deal with Saddam) **Untrue. The UN and many other nations were cheating the oil4food scam so all other means were not tried. Honesty was not tried. The UN Inspections did prove usefull and effective. **
      *]- there must be serious prospects of success; (should be OK on this one except for all the whiners here in the US and in Europe) You ignore ideology so you have limited understanding of the real threat and your concept of success is not in the interest of America.
      *]- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition. (The war part easily met this criteria, of course the insurgency really put us in a pickle, but mismanagement on our part and interference by Iran exacerbated the situation) Our depleted uranium is doing wonders in Iraq now isn’t it? Is the Gulf War Syndrome ill effects on our own soldiers much less the average Iraqi a myth? I don’t see how you call this easy at all.
      *]The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good. (See Number 6)
      As noted above the prudential judgment lies with Congress, Article 1 Section 8…not with the President when it comes to declaring war.

   1. 
      The Just War criteria is not a proxy type justification so easily transferred. The United States of America was not under any of those imminent dangers by Iraq and for us to go to war for the sake of others it must be very serious indeed and very clearly asked for by the people of Iraq. It was not because there were and are greater tragedies than what Saddam did. The United States of America falsely took on this ‘noble’ cause to protect our national interest of Iraqi oil while being a hypocrite regarding Rwanda or Darfur or what goes on in North Korea as a few examples.
      
      Santimonious may well describe US foreign policy since 9/11 if not before. I have not claimed any type of perfection either personally or morally in my position regarding Iraq other than to admit my previous error in its support. It is you who is applying such purity to our actions in Iraq. It doesn’t wash.

 

[RWMorris]

I respect your position Verisimilitude and I truly do try to understand. I do not agree with you. Thank you for bearing with my own sanctimonious arguments and apparent lack of humor. Maybe we will meet again in another thread, one that we can agree on.