There is a lot of oppression here in the USA that we have been hearing about. For example, innocent students are being shot at public schools and universities and at private schools also. Where is the security in place to protect these innocent students? Should Russia or China invade the USA right now to protect and free these innocent students from this oppression that they are now suffering under?
I just wanted an answer to the “which is more stupid” question. I’ll be more charitable in the future. There is hope for you.
Fair enough but having a multitude of sins is not uncommon in every individual. I do not believe our government is wholly untruthfull nor wholly greedy nor is the entire populace afraid of the boogey man. I do not know exactly what to think of the current administration with regard to their former private business lives they were in before being the current administration and, will likely re-enter once they leave office. Secret energy policy meetings and no-bid contracts and billions borrowed and wasted. It seems as if you shut your eyes to this. I am aware of it, not blinded by it.
Re-read the above.
1 a (1): a major political unit having a territory of great extent or a number of territories or peoples under a single sovereign authority; especially : one having an emperor as chief of state (2): the territory of such a political unit b: something resembling a political empire; especially : an extensive territory or enterprise under single domination or control
Sorry. a or b?
I disagree. It is still relevant and needs to be settled because we (America) have set the bar for pre-emptive war with the very real possibility of doing it again with Iran.
It was broke before we bought it. Give it back. We have lost enough blood and treasure in a region that will never know peace like we imagine it. Our moral obligation is to stop our offensive military actions in an unjust war.
For who would it be unjust? The families of and the soldiers fighting and dying? US tax payers? Iraqis under US occupation? I do not believe any more blood will be spilled if we stay or go. Will Sunni Arabia do nothing if Shiite Iran begins to wipe out the Sunni Iraqi minority and take control of the Gulf and oil fields?
Creating them; it costs more. Having said that I will add that this is a kind of “when did you stop beating your wife question?”; there aren’t any good answers. I don’t believe those are the only two options however, and am relatively optimistic that Iraq won’t end up in the hostile camp.
I’m aware of it as well but to believe that the president and vice president took the country to war to make money just strikes me as irrational. There are any number of ways they could have made a financial killing without risking their political futures. Your position requires not only greed at a blinding level of avariciousness but terminal stupidity as well. Here’s the syllogism: Bush has oil connections, Cheney was connected to Halliburton; Halliburton is making money in Iraq and there is oil in Iraq; therefore Bush and Cheney took us to war to make money. There is more proof that aliens landed at Roswell.
Yes, they did speak out and yes, they opposed the war, but your original comment was *“Iraq does not satisfy any of the Just War criteria for America to start the offensive war to include coming to the aid of others. John Paul the Great even said so.” *The citations you provided refer to their opposition to war and especially preemptive war; you didn’t provide any citations that validate your contention that none of the Just War criteria was satisfied and I don’t recall seeing anything in opposition to coming to the aid of the oppressed. I’m being a bit picky here, but I am hopeful that you will not continue to be over broad in your allegations.
You must admit that the singular difference between the Roman and British empires and the US is that we have virtually zero territories under our authority. Outside of Guam and a random island or two in the South Pacific we don’t control anyone. I accept your definition, just not the application of the term to the US.
There are no good answers if you beat your wife. For the man who beats his wife when asked that question he either says now, never, or lies. We are a nation doing both creating and supporting bigoted religious governments that are violent and hostile toward us and our ideology. I am glad you see my point. Stop beating your wife and stop the war in Iraq promoting a Islamic government in what you call more stupid than supporting them like we do Arabia and Egypt. Is it unfair/uncharitable to call someone doing really stupid things, stupid?
Honestly I would accept stupidity over money but one goes with the other. I think their dominate reason was for what they say it is- to secure America from further attack from a real threat. I even accepted it for a while. I was wrong. They are wrong. Rush is wrong. Glenn Beck is wrong. FOX is wrong and most all the Democrats and Republicans are wrong. You too are wrong. Making it even worse is how the war has been handled. A complete succes and victory in the pure military sense but a dismal failure in the polictical and US policy sense that has yet to be properly corrected.
(Alien ref #2? Are we unique and alone in the universe?)
Answer: Yes, he did.
Are we unique in history-America? Proud, noble and defender of the free World? We don’t need political land (anymore) or want the problems of the people in them-see American indigenous people. We are unusally rich in resources and remarkably blessed with personal freedoms to live our lives unmolested since we conqured this land a few hundred years ago or less. We have come a long way since 13 Colonies. Irony …
Of course.
Oil is a commodity and can be bought by anyone with the money. It would have been infinitely cheaper for us to have simply paid for it. Most of our oil in fact does not come from the Middle East. Suspect the US government all you like but what you suggest doesn’t make a lot of sense from a practical point of view. By the way, we’ve been there for six years - how much control do you see us exerting over Iraqi oil?
Do you guys understand commodities markets? Well I don’t and I still know enough about them to know that what you suggest is ludicrous. The oil goes to the highest bidder. It is a commodity just like corn, orange juice, and pork bellies. The highest bidder sets the price; supply and demand at its best. Just talking about this makes me hungry for a plate full of fried eggs, grits, bacon, and a big tall glass of orange juice. Yummy!
I agree with you that you don;t understand the oil commodities market. But it is always possible to catch up by reading a little on the subject:Do you guys understand commodities markets? Well I don’t and I still know enough about them to know that what you suggest is ludicrous. The oil goes to the highest bidder. It is a commodity just like corn, orange juice, and pork bellies. The highest bidder sets the price; supply and demand at its best. Just talking about this makes me hungry for a plate full of fried eggs, grits, bacon, and a big tall glass of orange juice. Yummy!
It is nice to hear us agree on something.
Bob, I understand the connection between oil, our economy, and our national interest. We didn’t intervene in the slaughter in Rwanda because the US has no economic interest there. I’m sure that access to oil played a big part in the US decision to intervene in Iraq. But we are not there stealing the oil. Iraqi oil is traded on the commodities market for all to buy, and China and India are buying it as fast as the Iraqis can pump it. The profits are being made by the Iraqis, and China and India are creating wealth with it. Isn’t this situation the best, economically, for everyone (except the terrorists)?Perhaps not. Punishing the oil4food sanction violators would have been more just than war. The US is not a vassel of the UN, and even if Iraq had WMD’s they had no means to deliver it to the US.
Very good points. Whether or not the war against Saddam and his cronies was just or not (I believe it was), the questions that most bother me are:
Unless you are willing to give justifications better than the very gracious Ender, your belief is unsupported by the facts and many people smarter than both of us.
Just when I thought the debate was getting deep, we have to go and play in the shallow end again. Better than Ender? That’s a tall order. Others and I already given answers in detail, both pro and con in other threads, but I will give a synopsis of my reasons I believe it was just. By the way, don’t sling that word “facts” around too recklessly, there may be innocent bystanders around.
(I’m not shouting; I just used bolded large font for emphasis.) Notice that last paragraph, it gives all authority for the evaluation of the listed conditions “at one and the same time” to the President and Congress. I don’t get to make the call, you don’t get to make the call, the good Bishop Botean doesn’t get to make the call, and the Catholic Church doesn’t get to make the call.
I forgot to answer this question. Yes.
I didn’t see where the catechism at all mentioned the President or the Congress of the USA. It simply mentioned the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good. Now, Catholic bishops have responsibility for the common good by virtue of their office and by virtue of their being successors of the original twelve Apostles. And the Catholic Bishop;Botean has stated: "Therefore I, by the grace of God and the favor of the Apostolic See Bishop of the Eparchy of St. George in Canton, must declare to you, my people, for the sake of your salvation as well as my own, that any direct participation and support of this war against the people of Iraq is objectively grave evil, a matter of mortal sin. Beyond a reasonable doubt this war is morally incompatible with the Person and Way of Jesus Christ. With moral certainty I say to you it does not meet even the minimal standards of the Catholic just war theory.
I was referening more specifically to John Paul the Great. Ender was just gracious to answer my posts. I knew his arguments before he gave them because I used to use them myself. They are hollow.
Facts aren’t hard to discern when weighed with reason.
We have reason and wisdom if we care to employ them over our personal interests and irrational fears. I know your arguments so tell me the wisdom of your reason and I will tell you mine.
Why wasn’t a formal declaration of war issued by Congress which is what is required by our civil law? Congress passed their legitimate authority to George Bush and let him make the decision. None of the bolded conditions are valid regarding Iraq and if you like we can get as deep as you like in each.
Of course he had them. It doesn’t matter. I think they are buried in the sand, so what? America was not in emminate danger from Iraqi WMD’s. How would they have delivered them to our shores and however you answer we could have better stopped it without going to war.
America is in violation of UN Resolutions just as Israel, Russia, China, Sudan, and many many others. The first Gulf war was not Just either and resumption of hostilities then or now do not meet the criteria.
I have no doubts about my position and I can take this in any direction you care to.