Is the west imperialist in the Muslim world

[corvidae]

I just wondered, because it seems that many believe that the west is imperialistic and is trying to colonize the muslim world.

Now if this is true, I think there may be a right for muslims to defend themselves, very similar to how the crusades were supposed to defend pilgrims from an expanding muslim world.

So my question is, are we trying to colonize and persecute the muslim world (even if we do not realize it).

Something to remember, there are different kinds of imperialism,

Internal- The west is doing so well, they must expand to new markets and have the resources to go anywhere and do anything.

External-the land being imperialised has done something to “invite” an outside group in, whether this be fighting, and accepting help on one side versus another, or anything like that.

Third is imperialism to keep up with the neighbors, so that other nations do not gain an advantage on you.

The only case I can possibly see is the second, where violence and partisanship in the muslim world invites something similar to imperialism in.

However I do not think we are trying to colonize or subjugate the muslim world.

What do you all think.

A lone Raven

 

[corvidae]

bump

 

[meedo]

Yes . I am a muslim and this is the general perception that is prevailent. I am happy to discuss more on the subject . But i am busy with around 100 other threads attacking islam so bear with me

 

[cestusdei]

Islam is imperialist. They immediately began to spread their religion by the sword. It took Spain 700 years to free themselves from the yoke of dhimmitude.

 

[corvidae]

Yes
but as I pointed out, the crusades were a war against imperialism,
How would it be different today.
One justification of the crusades is that no one who comitted atrocities during them is alive, in the same way, no Moor who took over spain is alive today.
I want to know about modern times, not just historically.

A lone Raven

 

[jburgherr]

Yes
but as I pointed out, the crusades were a war against imperialism,
How would it be different today.
One justification of the crusades is that no one who comitted atrocities during them is alive, in the same way, no Moor who took over spain is alive today.
I want to know about modern times, not just historically.

A lone Raven

I am sorry sir. I have to take you to task. How is the west acting in an imperialistic fashion. What Country has been taken as a possession?

Or maybe this is a nomenclature issue. What does imperialism or imperialistic mean to you?

 

[corvidae]

I just went through an imperialism class
And while I do not believe we have, or will ever take colonies, many say that building governments that like us, such as the soviets did during the cold war, is just as imperialistic.
I want to hear peoples ideas on the subject, Because I have heard several Muslims wanting to fight western imperialism.

So I thought I would ask

A lone Raven

 

[cestusdei]

An imperialism class? Sounds like it was biased to the left from the start. Don’t just buy into what some leftwing professor tells you. They count on you not knowing how to answer them back. The US is not imperialistic. If anything we avoided it. In fact the US destroyed several horrible empires not so long ago. We are now fighting one that wants to become an empire with Osama as its caliph.

 

[corvidae]

yes, my professor is liberal, that does not immediately discount the definitions of imperialism that I learned, and amazingly, the class only dealt with imperialism until the late 1700’s. Making it very difficult for anyone to accuse the US of imperialism.

I am asking for opinion, and especially for someone who believes that it is imperialistic, as to why they believe it.

I think it could be viewed as such, but not neccessarily. We are setting up democracies, and anyone who supports democracy, that is the people who vote, is going to be more favorable to the US. This could be seen as imperialism.

A lone Raven.

 

[jburgherr]

I just went through an imperialism class
And while I do not believe we have, or will ever take colonies, many say that building governments that like us, such as the soviets did during the cold war, is just as imperialistic.
I want to hear peoples ideas on the subject, Because I have heard several Muslims wanting to fight western imperialism.

So I thought I would ask

A lone Raven

Thanks for the clarification of what you meant!

The most obvious comparison would be Iraq before and after the second Gulf War.

I firmly believe that we, the US, only want to have a country that is not assisting with terrorist and not attempting to develop weapons of mass destruction to use against us or our allies. The US went into a country that was plotting mass casualties against our citizens. This was move of self preservation. I pay taxes so that I can live without the threat of annihilation. My government did my bidding.

This was also a winning situation for the Iraqi and Pakistani people. 54 million people now have a real say in their own government. Women voting for the first time. Governments are now working for thier people, instead of vice-versa.

Colonialism, in my way of thinking, has negative conotations of puppet governments that must look to the sponsoring government for approval or disapproval on how it conducts its own business. This is deffinately not what is happening in Iraq or Iran. The people of these countries run their own show. Once that these governments are strong enough to maintain their own national security we are outta there!

 

[Dale_M]

I just wondered, because it seems that many believe that the west is imperialistic and is trying to colonize the muslim world.

It is worth remembering that the West did colonize the Muslim world and that it was only in the aftermath of the two World Wars that independence was gained.

There are people still alive who remember life in a colonized country.

 

[redmars3000]

It is worth remembering that the West did colonize the Muslim world and that it was only in the aftermath of the two World Wars that independence was gained.

There are people still alive who remember life in a colonized country.

Exactly. There was Colonialism commited by the EUROPEANS. Most of the borders of countries in Africa and the middle east were formed by the colonial powers. Much of the wars today in Africa are because these borders were made without concern for the different cultures ecompassed by them. The Europeans expected to be there permanently so they did not forsee the problems that occur today because of the power vaccuum they left after world war 2. There was a real imperialism against the Muslim world, it was then, not now.

The only legitimate case i think people today can make aginst the west is cultural imperialism. Our stuff is just all over the world because it makes sense (betters the standard of living, and alot of people just like it) and eventually other cultures start using it, our food, shoes, clothes, tv, etc, and the life that goes with those things. I think the Muslim world can be legitimately mad at these things influencing their culture, but the only people that they should be mad at are their own. Culture imperialism cant take place without the people of the other society accepting that culture.

The radical muslims know how hard it would be to change the hearts and mindsets of everyone in their own culture, so they decide to take the easier route by attacking the source, the west. They know the clock is ticking against them, so they have to destroy us quickly. I believe this is a sign of weakness, and their culture will die a slow death, IF we are vigilant enough to keep nuclear bombs from going off in our countries.

 

[ralphinal]

I think that the argument, and it is an interesting one, only holds true in those nations with oil. In all honesty, it seems as though we could care less about the others.

Now, that said, I do not think that we are exploiting the oil producing nations the way a colonial/imperialistic power would. Some of these nations are set up in such a way that the citizens are very well off. The others have a few who profit and the rest are left on their own.

Are we trying to export our culture? Yes, but in a way that no one else ever has. We are not forcing anyone to eat at McDonalds, to drive a certain car, or buy certain cloths. We have a mass media that does that. It is not like the historical situations in India, the United States, or anywhere else where the old ways were banished and forbidden to “civilize savages.” The new way is much more insidious.

I think that what we see is a backlash against it. The only problem is, there is no one to lash out against. Hollywood is not a single entity. I feel that that is one reason for some of the anti-American hatred.

 

[manualman]

I think it a stretch to use the word “imperialism” to describe the USA. I think a different word is necessary. Imperialist implies an ouright takeover and subjugation of the natives of the countries colonized.

Instead, I think the USA has at time been guilty of manipulating the governments of other nations in order to secure a government friendly to our ‘interests.’ Not that this practice is BETTER than imperialism, just different.

If you are simplistic enough to define Imperialist as ‘selfish foreign policy’ then OK the shoe fits. But the classic definition is too different.

 

[Melchior]

I just wondered, because it seems that many believe that the west is imperialistic and is trying to colonize the muslim world.

Now if this is true, I think there may be a right for muslims to defend themselves, very similar to how the crusades were supposed to defend pilgrims from an expanding muslim world.

So my question is, are we trying to colonize and persecute the muslim world (even if we do not realize it).

Something to remember, there are different kinds of imperialism,

Internal- The west is doing so well, they must expand to new markets and have the resources to go anywhere and do anything.

External-the land being imperialised has done something to “invite” an outside group in, whether this be fighting, and accepting help on one side versus another, or anything like that.

Third is imperialism to keep up with the neighbors, so that other nations do not gain an advantage on you.

The only case I can possibly see is the second, where violence and partisanship in the muslim world invites something similar to imperialism in.

However I do not think we are trying to colonize or subjugate the muslim world.

What do you all think.

A lone Raven

No. And there is no evidence of this. What westerners have moved in to colonize even one Muslim country?

Now as for muslims colonizing western lands, just take a look at the muslim population from the middle east in western Europe and there is a much stronger case for the opposite.

 

[redmars3000]

I think that the argument, and it is an interesting one, only holds true in those nations with oil. In all honesty, it seems as though we could care less about the others.

Now, that said, I do not think that we are exploiting the oil producing nations the way a colonial/imperialistic power would. Some of these nations are set up in such a way that the citizens are very well off. The others have a few who profit and the rest are left on their own.

Are we trying to export our culture? Yes, but in a way that no one else ever has. We are not forcing anyone to eat at McDonalds, to drive a certain car, or buy certain cloths. We have a mass media that does that. It is not like the historical situations in India, the United States, or anywhere else where the old ways were banished and forbidden to “civilize savages.” The new way is much more insidious.

I think that what we see is a backlash against it. The only problem is, there is no one to lash out against. Hollywood is not a single entity. I feel that that is one reason for some of the anti-American hatred.

Sure there is a backlash, but how many of their own people accept some of our culture? The only people they should be mad at are their own. We dont force them to watch T.V. or drink Coke.
And it’s not like these things are necessary for life. Their own free will is the cause for the spread of our culture.

 

[Yaholo]

The problem in the world today with Islam vs. Christianity is that too many people from both religions have attached their faith to their culture and nationality.

The evangelical culture in America wants us to believe that America is God’s personal country to do His will in the world. Sadly, this idea often bleeds into American Catholics… Especially with the current administration, there is a pervasive feeling that America is performing the next “crusade”.

That being said, Islam has the same problem. Islam is integrated into just about all government in the middle-east. That means it is pretty easy to confuse any struggle in the middle-east with a struggle with Islam.

I listen to shows on the radio from ultra-conservatives as they talk about Islam taking over the world, and the danger from Islamic culture invading our country and think to myself “Right now, they are saying the same thing about us”

If you ask me, this whole current situation is the “Pot calling the Kettle black”, except the Pot is invading the Kettle, and the Kettle is strapping bombs to it’s chest and blowing up buildings.

 

[ralphinal]

Sure there is a backlash, but how many of their own people accept some of our culture? The only people they should be mad at are their own. We dont force them to watch T.V. or drink Coke.
And it’s not like these things are necessary for life. Their own free will is the cause for the spread of our culture.

I agree 100%, but it does not seem to work that way in Islam. I am not sure if it is an understanding of free-will or what, but legislated morality and lifestyle seems to be the way its done. Don’t let people choose but keep them from having a choice at all.

 

[paarsurrey]

The problem in the world today with Islam vs. Christianity is that too many people from both religions have attached their faith to their culture and nationality.

The evangelical culture in America wants us to believe that America is God’s personal country to do His will in the world. Sadly, this idea often bleeds into American Catholics… Especially with the current administration, there is a pervasive feeling that America is performing the next “crusade”.

That being said, Islam has the same problem. Islam is integrated into just about all government in the middle-east. That means it is pretty easy to confuse any struggle in the middle-east with a struggle with Islam.

I listen to shows on the radio from ultra-conservatives as they talk about Islam taking over the world, and the danger from Islamic culture invading our country and think to myself “Right now, they are saying the same thing about us”

If you ask me, this whole current situation is the “Pot calling the Kettle black”, except the Pot is invading the Kettle, and the Kettle is strapping bombs to it’s chest and blowing up buildings.

Hi

I agree with most you have said in your post.

What different political governments are doing in the Middle East or elsewhere has nothing to do with Quran/Islam/Muhammad, they are absolutely peaceful and promote justice and free will for everybody on earth.

The religions know no boundries, GodAllahYHWH has sent them in absolute times.

Thanks

 

[El_Cid]

An imperialism class? Sounds like it was biased to the left from the start. Don’t just buy into what some leftwing professor tells you. They count on you not knowing how to answer them back. The US is not imperialistic. If anything we avoided it. In fact the US destroyed several horrible empires not so long ago. We are now fighting one that wants to become an empire with Osama as its caliph.

Well…not so fast there. The US has been an empire since 1898. With the end of the Spanish-American War, the US took over many overseas possessions in order to expand and project it’s naval power worldwide. To this day, Puerto Rico remains a colony of the United States.

But enough about that, in relation to Islam, the US (or certain elements in it) may be an empire. It sure as heck is a hegemon. And like all hegemonic nation-states it looks to expand its influence and mold the world in it’s view. Case in point, our current involvement in Iraq. Under the guise of bringing ‘democracy’ to the Iraqis, we now seek to rationalize our invasion and current occupation (of which I am currently assisting in) of a country that was initially attacked because it contained ‘Weapons of Mass Destruction’. Now then, that is neither here nor there…or maybe its everything.

The US is not trying to destroy Islam nor counter-proselytize. Granted, Islam is a fast-growing religion (mainly via a large birthrate that I wish we Catholics would copy), but the US’s involvement is far from being a religious one. We seek mainly to protect our allies (or in this case, our President’s close family friends, the Saudis, who in turn help us by sponsoring the most radical form of Islam, Wahabism, which in Iraq goes under the name of Takfiri) and protect our interests, mainly petroleum.

Why do we pay attention to Hugo Chavez? Because he has something we want, oil. We are the number one buyer of Venezuelan petroleum. Again, neither here nor there.

Islam is imperialistic by nature in that it seeks to expand, making war on non-muslims either through conversion or jihad, while past (supposedly) exists within the House of Islam. I don’t know what to believe. I have a cousin who is a Muslim convert and is happy with her faith because it brought her a sense of belonging. She is peaceful, but then again, she was not brought up in the traditional Muslim household with the same religious prejudices that her cradle contemporaries might hold.

I am by no means an expert. I am simply a political scientist who is a specialist in International Relations, as well as a military officer currently serving in the Middle East. I have some knowledge and certain experiences, but I cannot pass an infallible judgement on a people and a religion. There are many good Muslims who live their faith peacefully, but there are also good Muslims who live their faith by the sword, and both models are upheld by the Koran.

Just my two cents.