Is the word Yahweh forbidden in Catholic music?

[Fink]

The Jerusalem Bible (1966) reintroduced the word “Yahweh”. That probably started the ball rolling for hymns etc.
Never did like that name!

Good riddance to “Yahweh, I Know You Are Near”! It`s an unmusical, dreary dirge! How do these “composers” get away with it?

 

[HelenRose]

The Jerusalem Bible (1966) reintroduced the word “Yahweh”. That probably started the ball rolling for hymns etc.
Never did like that name!

Good riddance to “Yahweh, I Know You Are Near”! It`s an unmusical, dreary dirge! How do these “composers” get away with it?

There are certainly better ways to express your sentiment about this song.
How about: "I do not like the song “Yahway, I Know You Are Near.”

Why go out of your way to be insulting.

I agree with you. I do not like that song either but I don’t like hurting people’s feelings that may find some comfort in it.

 

[jmcrae]

The Jerusalem Bible (1966) reintroduced the word “Yahweh”. That probably started the ball rolling for hymns etc.
Never did like that name!

Me, neither. I never could figure out why people just couldn’t say “God” or “Jesus.” Too easy, I guess.

Good riddance to “Yahweh, I Know You Are Near”! It`s an unmusical, dreary dirge! How do these “composers” get away with it?

I’m with you - there are so many talented Catholic musicians - and they pick this stuff??!

 

[Sarika]

Yes, it is prohibited in music used at Mass or in other liturgies of the Church, although the Church does not prohibit singing songs with the Divine Name on your own or in other contexts. This was ordered in 2008; you can read the directive here, and it’s brief and readable so I’ll let it speak for itself.

Although it is not specifically prohibited in other contexts, does that actually mean that it is okay? Most songs that employ it are devotional/prayerful. Wouldn’t the same principle apply? I’m just asking out of curiosity. I can see how it could be used in scholarly, non-devotional contexts, but can’t see how it would apply to most songs.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the Jerusalem Bible was criticized by the Church because of it’s inclusion of God’s Name.

 

[Sarika]

King David said “Adonai” (Lord); he did not say “Yahweh” which has always been forbidden by the Jews to pronounce out loud.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think it is still forbidden, even for us Catholics. It was a big, sacrilegious mistake that it ever came into vogue.

 

[DaveBj]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think it is still forbidden, even for us Catholics. It was a big, sacrilegious mistake that it ever came into vogue.

It has been thoroughly documented in this and other threads that the only place that the name “Yahveh” is forbidden is in public liturgy. Use of that name outside public liturgy is not forbidden to Catholics. Common sense would limit its usage to venues where offense would not be given to observant Jews.

 

[Fink]

There are certainly better ways to express your sentiment about this song.
How about: "I do not like the song “Yahway, I Know You Are Near.”

Your wording`s too formal, and neutral: i prefer to call a spade a spade. The Truth sets us free, after all; and after three or four decades of that woeful stuff, my patience has long since disappeared.
"not liking " is indefinits: “disliking” is definite.

Why go out of your way to be insulting.

It`s not my fault that the “composer” (whoever he is) lacks any talent, at least regarding that opus!.

I agree with you. I do not like that song either but I don’t like hurting people’s feelings that may find some comfort in it.

Well, i`m sure there would be much more inspiring hymns that would do a far better job of comforting people in distress.

“Y*****h is The God of My Salvation” is another miserable piece that should be given a decent burial, with a stake driven through it, so that it can never come back to haunt us.

We Catholics shouldnt use that name, even in private. Its too sacred!

 

[JReducation]

Your wording`s too formal, and neutral: i prefer to call a spade a spade. The Truth sets us free, after all; and after three or four decades of that woeful stuff, my patience has long since disappeared.
"not liking " is indefinits: “disliking” is definite.

It`s not my fault that the “composer” (whoever he is) lacks any talent, at least regarding that opus!.

Well, i`m sure there would be much more inspiring hymns that would do a far better job of comforting people in distress.

“Y*****h is The God of My Salvation” is another miserable piece that should be given a decent burial, with a stake driven through it, so that it can never come back to haunt us.

We Catholics shouldnt use that name, even in private. Its too sacred!

I think the problem here is that while one may dislike something, one must always speak charitably, kindly, politely and gently even about that which one finds objectionable.

I am reminded of St. Anthony of Padua. The Church always referred to him as “The Hammer of the Heretics” and “The Man With The Golden Tongue”. What made him thus was his ability to teach and preach the most profound truths without ever saying a word that he knew would make others feel uncomfortable. He avoided that at all costs. In part, it was his nature and in addition Francis commanded his sons and daughters to be the most insignificant people and to speak to and about others with chivalry, because virtue does not cancel out courtliness.

Anthony understood that the moment that he ceased to speak gently, his preaching was worthless. If he had to go into a town where a heretic was preaching against the Eucharist, for example, he never told the people that the heretic was wrong. He would set himself up in another part of town and begin to preach the truths about the Eucharist using the scriptures and the Fathers. He’d make his argument so persuasive, that the heresy would collapse without him ever saying an unkind word or a harsh word.

I think this is what HelenRose is trying to say here. We need to be careful that our manner of explaining things conveys the message without crossing over into harshness. St. Bonaventure always taught that we do not become saints by what we reject, but by what we embrace. If we embrace the practice of virtue, everything that is contrary to virtue is automacially excluded from our lives.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Fink]

I think the problem here is that while one may dislike something, one must always speak charitably, kindly, politely and gently even about that which one finds objectionable…

…I think this is what HelenRose is trying to say here. We need to be careful that our manner of explaining things conveys the message without crossing over into harshness. St. Bonaventure always taught that we do not become saints by what we reject, but by what we embrace. If we embrace the practice of virtue, everything that is contrary to virtue is automacially excluded from our lives.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Youre a real gentleman; and i mean that with absolute sincerity. After all, ive read a fair number of your posts. i`d like to have your wisdom and serenity. Especially your serenity! Maybe one day…

Trouble is: on these forums, were limited in the way that we can express ourselves... Theres no “time” to be courtly, as such. i try desperately to avoid “ad hominem” attacks, but, in the case of those “hymns”, for example, honestys the best policy. It leaves no doubt in anyones mind about where you stand. i dont know the names of the composers of those two works, and dont want to. im not "attacking" the composers, but their works. You could probably say, in a way, that im using a variation of “Love the sinner, but hate the sin.”. Dont forget that i gave one of those composers the benefit of the doubt by saying: "...at least regarding that opus!"! But, i really do believe that those two hymns, along with a heap of others, are absolutely pathetic; and dont know how to be anything other than brutally frank! i`d feel a hypocrite, otherwise. Baring my soul.

Going by your manner, i suppose you and Pope Benedict would get on well: both gentle natures, and diplomats. My owns obviously more spiky (sigh), but its probably handy sometimes…

Anyway… im aware of your physical state: praying. Its after 2:45am here; and its all your fault! :D Cant think straight at this hour, but wanted to let you know that i took notice…

PS
id prefer to be laughing than to be growling. (im only about the same height as the King of Id!)

 

[JReducation]

LOL, trust me, serenity does not come easily. I have had to learn to roll my eyes and to remind myself, over and over again, that my opinions are worthless and that others, even if they are mistaken are above me and must be treated with the utmost respect and courtesy. Detaching from material things, people and places comes easily. Detaching from self if an ongoing process.

Thank you for the comparison to Pope Benedict. It’s quite an honor. It’s funny that you should mention him. When I was a student in Rome, many years ago, I met him many times. I also got to meet Bl. John Paul II twice. To me, they were like Francis and Dominic. Michelle Arnold once wrote an article about that and I had to concur. Bl. John Paul was Francis, gentle, forgiving, eager to bring the loving embrace of Christ to all people, always the contemplative and mystic and willing to lay down his life for peace. Pope Benedict is Dominic, the preacher and teacher, eager to bring the Truth to all who will listen; but like Dominic, always preaching from the bottom up, kind, respectful and non-abrasive toward others, which is so typical of Dominic and the Dominican school.

We should learn from Francis and Dominic, as did their sons, Anthony, Bonaventure, Albert and Thomas Aquinas. God, in his infinite wisdom offers us opportunities to practice the virtues. If I were to try to explain sin in practical terms, I would say that it is the deliberate waste of an opportunity to grow in holiness. I had such an experience today. I was at a Franciscan meeting. After the meeting, a sister started to shout at me, because according to her, I had misstated the birthday of St. Clare. First, of all, that’s not a big deal. Neither the Church nor the Franciscans are going to collapse because we get St. Clare’s birthday wrong.

I looked at Sister and quietly said, “Why are you yelling at me?” She said, “Because I’m right and I want others to know it.” I nodded and simply asked, “Tell me Sister, which is charity, to correct the person who has made a mistake or to announce to the world that one is right?” With that, she moved on and so did I. Everyone who had witnessed the scene also moved on.

My point, sometimes it is hard to be mellow or serene; but that’s when it’s the greatest advantage to the soul.

By the way, my date was correct. I checked it out when I got home.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Cojuanco]

Wow. I never heard that. What an eye opener now that I look back on the hymns I sung at my old parish and how many times Yahweh is mentioned in that hymnal.

They edited some of the offending songs in the new hymnals my parish got. It’s likely they no longer do that since the decree.

 

[Phemie]

They edited some of the offending songs in the new hymnals my parish got. It’s likely they no longer do that since the decree.

Some of the writers have revised their ‘hymn’: “Yahwey, I Know You Are Near” is now “O God, I know you are near”

 

[Glennonite]

I grew up singing Yahweh, I know You Are Near; it has always spoken to me. To me, that song was like chicken soup. I’m just sayin’…

Glennonite

 

[Cojuanco]

I grew up singing Yahweh, I know You Are Near; it has always spoken to me. To me, that song was like chicken soup. I’m just sayin’…

Glennonite

And you can still use that song, just don’t say the Divine Name if it’s during Mass. God (which is used in the present version of the song) and the Divine Name both refer to the same thing, but the former invites much less offense.

 

[Fink]

LOL, trust me, serenity does not come easily…

Thank you for the comparison to Pope Benedict. It’s quite an honor. It’s funny that you should mention him…

You`re welcome. Glad it was a good fit!

By the way, my date was correct. *** I checked it out when I got home.***

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Brother JR: i hope Sister did, as well!

PS:
My sense of humour is a bit twisted; and some remarks have to be interpreted in a more light-hearted way than the string of words might suggest. Theres an Australian larrikinism which others dont necessarily understand…or appreciate. We mean what we say.
A lot of us also poke fun at ourselves; and to hell with the judgement of stuffy, strait-laced types who say: "Youre being negative.", or "You lack self-esteem."! Theyre the ones who have problems.

 

[JReducation]

They edited some of the offending songs in the new hymnals my parish got. It’s likely they no longer do that since the decree.

And you can still use that song, just don’t say the Divine Name if it’s during Mass. God (which is used in the present version of the song) and the Divine Name both refer to the same thing, but the former invites much less offense.

We must be very careful here. The Holy Father never said that this is a moral issue, nor did my anscestors. It was not that it was a sin or an offense to say YHWH. That was never the case, nor did the Holy Father make it the case.

It was that no one ever said it out of respect for that which beyond sacred, if you can imagine what I mean by that. But it is not a blasphemy or sin of any kind. Otherwise, one would not be allowed to say it at all. We say it all the time in Scripture classes. The Holy Father is trying to preserve a tradition that was handed down to us by the Jews, just as we preserve many other sacred traditions handed down to us by the Jews, that have nothing to do with morality.

Let’s be very careful not to make people feel that they have done something wrong by using the name YHWH. That’s not the case.

My Jewish mother always explained it best. I asked her once why we could not say YHWH. She, being eminently practical and well educated said.

"First of all, we have no idea how to pronounce it, because the ancient writers never put in the signals for the vowel sounds. That’s a stopper right there.

Second, do you ever call your grandparents Simon and Marion?"

I said,“No. I call them Papa and Bubbah” She asked me, “Why do you call them Papa and Bubbah?”

I said, “Because they’re special.”

She said, “That’s why we don’t call G-d by his name. Instead we call him Adonai.”

It made perfect sense.

It’s an act of love, not a sin to be avoided.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Sarika]

. But it is not a blasphemy or sin of any kind. Otherwise, one would not be allowed to say it at all. We say it all the time in Scripture classes.​

This was an interesting post, yet I still have questions about this topic. For instance, in Scripture classes etc., when the Name of God is used, the participants are not ADDRESSING God.

If we are not to address God with His Name during the Mass, why should we be able to do so outside of the Mass? Why would we WANT to?

The document refers only to Mass, but does that really mean that it is fine to pronounce this Name while ADDRESSING God elsewhere?

So far, no one has been able to back up this notion with evidence. Since the document does not mention anything about non-liturgical use of God’s Name in prayer (which includes songs), it is simply the personal interpretation of the responders that , in a non-liturgical setting, it can be used.

Also, there are many reasons to refrain from doing this, and the magisterium has explained that there are deep theological reasons behind it, particularly how using Adonai, Lord, etc. instead ,points to the true Messiahship of Our Lord.

Perhaps we should send this question to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Specifically, we should ask whether there is a difference between speaking of God using this term, and addressing Him with it.

 

[JReducation]

JReducation;8069941:

. But it is not a blasphemy or sin of any kind. Otherwise, one would not be allowed to say it at all. We say it all the time in Scripture classes.​

This was an interesting post, yet I still have questions about this topic. For instance, in Scripture classes etc., when the Name of God is used, the participants are not ADDRESSING God.

If we are not to address God with His Name during the Mass, why should we be able to do so outside of the Mass? Why would we WANT to?

The document refers only to Mass, but does that really mean that it is fine to pronounce this Name while ADDRESSING God elsewhere?

So far, no one has been able to back up this notion with evidence. Since the document does not mention anything about non-liturgical use of God’s Name in prayer (which includes songs), it is simply the personal interpretation of the responders that , in a non-liturgical setting, it can be used.

Also, there are many reasons to refrain from doing this, and the magisterium has explained that there are deep theological reasons behind it, particularly how using Adonai, Lord, etc. instead ,points to the true Messiahship of Our Lord.

Perhaps we should send this question to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Specifically, we should ask whether there is a difference between speaking of God using this term, and addressing Him with it.

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches, follow the Deuterocanonical Law on this one. You can speak of God. In order to speak about him, you may use his name. You may not use his name in direct address. That is what is forbidden in Judaism. Catholicism and Orthodoxy continues to subscribe to that principle. Orthodox Jews are even more strict. They don’t even speak about God using YHWH. The rest of Judaism does, but not in direct address.

The reason that Catholicism and Orthodoxy follow this rule is because there are theologial reasons that have been handed down to us from Jews for not addressing God by his “name”. Which is not really a name, more of a description of who he is. Those theological reasons continue to be valud. Man does not have the right to address God at all. He is given the privilege through the mercy of God. It is a privilege, not a right. To put it in secular wording, we walk gingerly around God’s name.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Glennonite]

Sarika;8074512:

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches, follow the Deuterocanonical Law on this one. You can speak of God. In order to speak about him, you may use his name. You may not use his name in direct address. That is what is forbidden in Judaism. Catholicism and Orthodoxy continues to subscribe to that principle. Orthodox Jews are even more strict. They don’t even speak about God using YHWH. The rest of Judaism does, but not in direct address.

The reason that Catholicism and Orthodoxy follow this rule is because there are theologial reasons that have been handed down to us from Jews for not addressing God by his “name”. Which is not really a name, more of a description of who he is. Those theological reasons continue to be valud. Man does not have the right to address God at all. He is given the privilege through the mercy of God. It is a privilege, not a right. To put it in secular wording, we walk gingerly around God’s name.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

As usual, Jr. you have the last word; nicely done. It’s good to have your weigh-in on these theological/Cathological subjects.

Thanks,

Glennonite

 

[JReducation]

JReducation;8076740:

As usual, Jr. you have the last word; nicely done. It’s good to have your weigh-in on these theological/Cathological subjects.

Thanks,

Glennonite

Cathological huh? Hmmm, I’ll have to tell my bishop that I can do Cathology.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF