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trdchubi
Guest
Listen to this song Yahweh, You Are Near. This song is sung during Communion in our church.
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MarkThompson
Guest
Here’s what Dan Schutte had to say about the composition of that song, which may put it in a slightly different light for people who are up in arms about it:
I wrote this piece in 1970, as a very young man. I’m afraid there’s no special story behind it. I do remember beginning it while on retreat and working on it for several months before I was satisfied. When I entered the Jesuit novitiate in 1966, the Jerusalem Bible had just been published. It was the long-awaited project of some of the world’s most respected scripture scholars. The translation was modern, in the best sense of that word, and attempted to be true to the poetic character of the Biblical songs, especially the Psalms. I first learned to pray the Psalms from the Jerusalem Bible. And, like you, I turned to the JB translation in considering Biblical texts my compositions.
The JB team of translators decided to use the name “Yahweh” whenever the tetragrammaton YHWH appeared in the original Hebrew text. It was certainly not a frivolous decision on their part. It might be interesting for your bloggers to read what the Editor’s Forward in the JB says about their decision:
It is in the Psalms especially that the use of the divine name Yahweh may seem unacceptable – though indeed the still stranger form Yah is in constant use in the acclamation Hallelu-Yah (Praise Yah!). It is not without hesitation that this accurate form has been used, and no doubt those who may care to use this translation of the Psalms can substitute the traditional “the Lord”. On the other hand, this would be to lose much of the flavor and meaning of the originals.
As our communal, and my own personal, sensitivity grew in the years after the writing of “You Are Near,” we came to understand that speaking the name “Yahweh” out loud was not in keeping with our long Christian tradition, and was, in fact, offensive to Jewish sisters and brothers. So after 1973 I’ve not used the name “Yahweh” in my compositions.
As for your parish, you must be using an old hymnal. He revised it in 2008 to start “O Lord, I know you are near.”As our communal, and my own personal, sensitivity grew in the years after the writing of “You Are Near,” we came to understand that speaking the name “Yahweh” out loud was not in keeping with our long Christian tradition, and was, in fact, offensive to Jewish sisters and brothers. So after 1973 I’ve not used the name “Yahweh” in my compositions.
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mkamoski1
Guest
All -
How does the idea that “the name of God should not be spoken” sync with the the following passage from the Bible…
13 Moses said to God: Lo, I shall go to the children of Israel, and say to them: The God of your fathers hath sent me to you. If they should say to me: What is his name? what shall I say to them? 14 God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you. [Genesis. 3:14. Douay-Rheims.]
…wherein in God explicitly reveals his name to Moses and instructs Moses to tell (speak) that name to the people?
The statements “Tradition says do not speak the name of God” and “God says, in the Bible, to Moses-- go and speak the name of God to the people” seem a bit incongruous, do they not?
What do you think?
Please advise.
As a sidebar, and for the record, I am fine with not speaking or singing “Yahweh” and it is of no great concern of mine and I am happy to obey Tradition on the matter. This thread is just an investigation out of interest, that is all. Also, I recall here that the name of God is also “Jesus”, and, as we know, the name Jesus is above every other name. The name Jesus should be spoken, and sung, and even written on one’s heart forever.
Thank you.
Jesus Is Lord.
How does the idea that “the name of God should not be spoken” sync with the the following passage from the Bible…
13 Moses said to God: Lo, I shall go to the children of Israel, and say to them: The God of your fathers hath sent me to you. If they should say to me: What is his name? what shall I say to them? 14 God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you. [Genesis. 3:14. Douay-Rheims.]
…wherein in God explicitly reveals his name to Moses and instructs Moses to tell (speak) that name to the people?
The statements “Tradition says do not speak the name of God” and “God says, in the Bible, to Moses-- go and speak the name of God to the people” seem a bit incongruous, do they not?
What do you think?
Please advise.
As a sidebar, and for the record, I am fine with not speaking or singing “Yahweh” and it is of no great concern of mine and I am happy to obey Tradition on the matter. This thread is just an investigation out of interest, that is all. Also, I recall here that the name of God is also “Jesus”, and, as we know, the name Jesus is above every other name. The name Jesus should be spoken, and sung, and even written on one’s heart forever.
Thank you.
Jesus Is Lord.
- Mark Kamoski
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antonivs
Guest
I believe I read somewhere that the Holy Name was only pronounced publicly once per year on the Day of Atonement by the High Priest in the Temple in Jerusalem.We must be very careful here. The Holy Father never said that this is a moral issue, nor did my anscestors. It was not that it was a sin or an offense to say YHWH. That was never the case, nor did the Holy Father make it the case.
It was that no one ever said it out of respect for that which beyond sacred, if you can imagine what I mean by that. But it is not a blasphemy or sin of any kind. Otherwise, one would not be allowed to say it at all. We say it all the time in Scripture classes. The Holy Father is trying to preserve a tradition that was handed down to us by the Jews, just as we preserve many other sacred traditions handed down to us by the Jews, that have nothing to do with morality.
Let’s be very careful not to make people feel that they have done something wrong by using the name YHWH. That’s not the case.
My Jewish mother always explained it best. I asked her once why we could not say YHWH. She, being eminently practical and well educated said.
"First of all, we have no idea how to pronounce it, because the ancient writers never put in the signals for the vowel sounds. That’s a stopper right there.
Second, do you ever call your grandparents Simon and Marion?"
I said,“No. I call them Papa and Bubbah” She asked me, “Why do you call them Papa and Bubbah?”
I said, “Because they’re special.”
She said, “That’s why we don’t call G-d by his name. Instead we call him Adonai.”
It made perfect sense.
It’s an act of love, not a sin to be avoided.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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AndyP2010
Guest
BrotherIn fact, we Jews have no idea how the word is pronounced. It is written in consonants. YAHWEH is a Latinization when it was transcribed into the Latin alphabet as YHWH. In Hebrew it is written as four consonants without vowel indicators.
יהוה)
Notice that there are no dots. My ancestors deliberately leave these out so that the name could never be pronounced. The dots in the Hebrew alphabet indicate where the vowel sound goes. That’s how it was transcribed into the Latin alphabet as four consonants.
.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
A few questions if you don’t mind, as I understand it YHWH mean ruffly, I AM and that is how the Lord introduces himself at the burning bush. So that leaves Moses as the only person to have ever properly heard that name and the common pronunciation that is used is then a guess? Also are we sure that Jesus never said it since doesn’t he use the phrase I AM in gospel in reference to himself?
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antonivs
Guest
The following is from the Jewish Publication Society’s translation of the Bible (JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh) and explanatory notes:
source Exodus 3:13-15
Explanatory notes:
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JReducation
Guest
All -
How does the idea that “the name of God should not be spoken” sync with the the following passage from the Bible…
13 Moses said to God: Lo, I shall go to the children of Israel, and say to them: The God of your fathers hath sent me to you. If they should say to me: What is his name? what shall I say to them? 14 God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you. [Genesis. 3:14. Douay-Rheims.]
…wherein in God explicitly reveals his name to Moses and instructs Moses to tell (speak) that name to the people?
The statements “Tradition says do not speak the name of God” and “God says, in the Bible, to Moses-- go and speak the name of God to the people” seem a bit incongruous, do they not?
What do you think?
Please advise.
As a sidebar, and for the record, I am fine with not speaking or singing “Yahweh” and it is of no great concern of mine and I am happy to obey Tradition on the matter. This thread is just an investigation out of interest, that is all. Also, I recall here that the name of God is also “Jesus”, and, as we know, the name Jesus is above every other name. The name Jesus should be spoken, and sung, and even written on one’s heart forever.
Thank you.
Jesus Is Lord.
- Mark Kamoski
Antonivs citation is very accurate. We don’t know exactly how God said it and how Moses said it. We know what Moses reported and the ancient Hebrews wrote in the Torah, which is attributed to Moses, becaues he is the primary source though not the only source.
What we know, from tradition is that YHWH was not said by the common man. This is one of the problem that the Jewish theologians of the first century had with Jesus and why they accused him of heresy. He often used 'I am . . ." Some would say that he was referring to God and others understood that he was referring to himself as God. One thing is clear. He was talking about God. However, we also know that the early Christians never used this word.
As Fr. Schulte says, this topic never came up again until YHWH was spelled out in the translation of the Jerusalem Bible. Now, it becomes an issue again.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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AndyP2010
Guest
Brother
Thank you, I can honestly say that I always look forward to your post. May God bless you.
Thank you, I can honestly say that I always look forward to your post. May God bless you.
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richlo
Guest
I dont know if this has been brought up…But Jesus did follow Jewish traditions to this, correct? he never says the divine name anywhere ever EXCEPT there is a verse where Jesus reads from the book of Issiah and the divine name is there - did he say the name or not?
I know as an xjehovah Witness - they always said he did - I think he did not and if he did - it seems that no where else he mentions this. They go further as Jesus mentions about making God’s name known but Jews would have know this already and I would only guess that he meant the representation and not so much of the literal name.
Also, which FATHER wants to truly be called by their name - my dad would whoop my *** if I did…
I know as an xjehovah Witness - they always said he did - I think he did not and if he did - it seems that no where else he mentions this. They go further as Jesus mentions about making God’s name known but Jews would have know this already and I would only guess that he meant the representation and not so much of the literal name.
Also, which FATHER wants to truly be called by their name - my dad would whoop my *** if I did…
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JReducation
Guest
Jesus actually never uses YHWH except in that passage, but he does use it quiet a bit when speaking about himself. “I AM the way.” I AM the door" “I AM the Good Shepherd.” “I AM he”
This is what gets him to trouble. Contrary to what the JW say, he never uses the name YHWH standing alone in a sentence or in direct address to God. He always sayd, Father.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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mkamoski1
Guest
All -
Please note the following.
From this link…
usccb.org/nab/071411.shtml
…we have the following from the Daily Readings…
"
Responsorial Psalm
…
105:1 and 5, 8-9, 24-25, 26-27
…
R. (8a) The Lord remembers his covenant for ever.
…
Give thanks to the LORD, invoke his name;
make known among the nations his deeds.
Recall the wondrous deeds that he has wrought,
his portents, and the judgments he has uttered.
…
"
…wherein it clearly says…
“Give thanks to the LORD, invoke his name”
…so how does this relate to the thread above, if at all?
…what do you think?
(Remember-- Jesus Is Lord.)
Yours in Christ,
Please note the following.
From this link…
usccb.org/nab/071411.shtml
…we have the following from the Daily Readings…
"
Responsorial Psalm
…
105:1 and 5, 8-9, 24-25, 26-27
…
R. (8a) The Lord remembers his covenant for ever.
…
Give thanks to the LORD, invoke his name;
make known among the nations his deeds.
Recall the wondrous deeds that he has wrought,
his portents, and the judgments he has uttered.
…
"
…wherein it clearly says…
“Give thanks to the LORD, invoke his name”
…so how does this relate to the thread above, if at all?
…what do you think?
(Remember-- Jesus Is Lord.)
Yours in Christ,
- Mark Kamoski
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nahbios
Guest
Many thanks to the OP and all contributors - this is a great thread! Special thanks to you, Brother JR, for sharing your knowledge of this subject, on an academic and personal level (I love how your mother explained it).
You learn something new everyday!
Beannacht Dé,
Siobhán.
You learn something new everyday!
Beannacht Dé,
Siobhán.
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Darlene_Jasons
Guest
How can such beautiful Hebrew names such as Yaweh be forbidden. What about Adoni, Elohim & El Shaddai to name a few.
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MarkThompson
Guest
Why don’t you read the directive I linked to in post #2 and see what you think?
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Allegra
Guest
It is my understanding that it is to respect the Jewish people, who don’t use that name for God out loud. That’s what they told us in cantor class.
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PJM
Guest
OFICALLY NO! Not anymore as an accomidation to our Jewish Brethern, many of whom still follow OT [add -ons] to the commandments; so thou shalt not “take the name of the LORD in vain” became "One MAY NOT EVEN SAY the Name “Lord”. “[Yahweh”]. To us its a small issue BUT to tme its HUGE. So the Church made the right decission IMO.
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DaveBj
Guest
One thing we’re forgetting here is that the reason why God named Himself “Ehyeh asher ehyeh” (“I am that I am”) is because He was talking to a Hebrew-speaker (Moses), and the reason why the Hebrews called Him “Yahveh” (“He is”) is that they were Hebrew-speakers. If it had been John Smith from Buckinghamshire at the burning bush instead of Mosheh ben [Whatever] of Goshen, God would have called Himself “I Am What I Am,” we would be calling him “He Is,” and Popeye would be considered blasphemous.
The French Jerusalem Bible took what I believe to be the best approach to this problem. Insteading of using “Jahweh,” and the later English JB did, they translated the Name as “l’Eternel.”
The French Jerusalem Bible took what I believe to be the best approach to this problem. Insteading of using “Jahweh,” and the later English JB did, they translated the Name as “l’Eternel.”
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JReducation
Guest
OFICALLY NO! Not anymore as an accomidation to our Jewish Brethern, many of whom still follow OT [add -ons] to the commandments; so thou shalt not “take the name of the LORD in vain” became "One MAY NOT EVEN SAY the Name “Lord”. “[Yahweh”]. To us its a small issue BUT to tme its HUGE. So the Church made the right decission IMO.
It is not an accommodation to the Jews. The decree by His Holiness makes it very clear that we received this tradition from the Jews. As they converted to Christianity, including the Apostles themselves, they brought with them the tradition of replacing YHWH with Adonai, Dominus or in English, God and Lord. The connection with the Jews is that this great reverence for the name of God is handed down to us through Judaism. The decree does not say that we’re patronizing Judaism. We’re trying to remain faithful to the earliest traditions that the Church handed down to us. Some of them predate the Church. This is one of them.
Prior to the translation of the Jerusalem Bible, this was not a problem. All of the previous translations had substituted Lord and God where YHWH once appeared. The scholars who worked on the Jerusalem Bible wanted to translate it as literally as possible. In doing so, they unleahesd something that they did not anticipate. Bible verses or hymns and prayers inspired by those verses flooded the market. They contained YHWH instead of Lord or God.
Because liturgy is a public act and the Lord’s name may never be said in public, it is how we arrive at this decree. This is and has always been as serious to Catholics and Orthodox as it has been for Jews. Protestants and for those Catholics who became used to the Protestant use of Jehovah, take this lightly, but not orthodox Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians. This is very serious. This is the name that may only be uttered in public for very special reasons on very special days.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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DaveBj
Guest
I read this a little differently than how you read it.
The Church has come down against the public use of the Name in worship.
Why?
Because someone was offended by it. If no one had been offended by the public use of the Name in worship, there would have been no need to forbid it. For example, no one is offended by the use of the name Benedict, and our parish priest (a Benedictine) mentions in in every celebration of the Mass.
So, someone, somewhere was offended by the public use of the Name in worship. Who? Not Catholics. Not the Orthodox. Not the Buddhists. Not the Protestants. Not the atheists and agnostics. Who was offended? The Jews, because of the human-sourced regulations that they instituted after the return from the Babylonian Exile. And Rome, in a desire not to provide offense, has mandated against the public use of the Name in worship.
Don’t get me wrong. I have no problems with the Jewish use of euphemisms to avoid pronouncing the name by which God identified Himself, and I would never intentionally offend a Jew by using the Name in his/her presence. Likewise, I do not have a problem with Rome’s forbidding the usage. But let’s tell it like it is. It was mainly the Jews who were offended by the public use of the Name, and therefore it is legitimate to say that Rome’s decision is an accomodation to them.
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christosdavid
Guest
I personally think its a shame, when I was young we used to sing “I will be Yahweh who walks with you…”
I cant find it and the church doesnt sing it anymore… Perhaps one day we will be allowed to sing it again, when there is a different liturgy director in Rome…
I cant find it and the church doesnt sing it anymore… Perhaps one day we will be allowed to sing it again, when there is a different liturgy director in Rome…
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