Is there a Baptist that can answer this question please?

[7_Sorrows]

Hi 7 Sorrows,
You sound like a very nice person who cares about friendships. You might want to pray for her first and then seek guidance from the Lord as to the timing of mentioning something to her about it. Let the Holy Spirit guide you.

I believe the third church you were seeking is the ‘Church Triumphant’ that consists of those believers already in heaven,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_militant_and_church_triumphant

Thank you. I will be calling her later on in the week so I might bring it up then.
Church Triumphant is the one I have trouble remembering the name of!

Thanks for the link.

 

[Cat]

Thank you for your reply. Which commandments in the Old Testament say that?

gotquestions.org/praying-to-the-dead.html

This is a link to a really good little answer to your question about “which commandments in the OT say that?”

It’s exactly what I was taught as a child. There is a lot of logic in the answer. And it definitely gives all the honor and glory to the Lord God.

What I’m saying here is that we Catholics should not be so quick to criticize Evangelical Protestants (Baptists) who are wary of “praying to the saints.” There are good reasons behind their reluctance to accept this teaching.

That being said, I have no problem asking the saints and angels to pray for me, as I believe that it is entirely Biblical. I believe that Protestants who won’t accept this practice are ignoring several key passages in the Bible, mainly Hebrews 12:1, and Revelation 6: 9-11.

 

[7_Sorrows]

gotquestions.org/praying-to-the-dead.html

This is a link to a really good little answer to your question about “which commandments in the OT say that?”

It’s exactly what I was taught as a child. There is a lot of logic in the answer. And it definitely gives all the honor and glory to the Lord God.

What I’m saying here is that we Catholics should not be so quick to criticize Evangelical Protestants (Baptists) who are wary of “praying to the saints.” There are good reasons behind their reluctance to accept this teaching.

That being said, I have no problem asking the saints and angels to pray for me, as I believe that it is entirely Biblical. I believe that Protestants who won’t accept this practice are ignoring several key passages in the Bible, mainly Hebrews 12:1, and Revelation 6: 9-11.

Thanks Cat. Then how do Catholics refute what it says in the OT.

 

[Cat]

Thanks Cat. Then how do Catholics refute what it says in the OT.

With Scripture. Always with Scripture. That is the only argument that Evangelical Protestants, including Baptists, will accept. Sacred Tradition is “works of man” to them, and they won’t accept it.

Use the two passages that I mentioned above (Heb. 12:1, and Revelation 6:9-11). It might also be good to point them to the Transfiguration, which is in all four Gospels. This story from Jesus’ life makes it clear that Moses and Elijah not only talked to Jesus, but were fully aware of His mission here on this earth.

 

[7_Sorrows]

With Scripture. Always with Scripture. That is the only argument that Evangelical Protestants, including Baptists, will accept. Sacred Tradition is “works of man” to them, and they won’t accept it.

Use the two passages that I mentioned above (Heb. 12:1, and Revelation 6:9-11). It might also be good to point them to the Transfiguration, which is in all four Gospels. This story from Jesus’ life makes it clear that Moses and Elijah not only talked to Jesus, but were fully aware of His mission here on this earth.

Thanks for those 2 scripture and the Transfiguration.
I probably won’t be able to convince her, but who knows?

 

[YADA]

I think it would be good to focus on those passages from scripture and how they speak to you. That is the non Catholic way after all.

In the story of Lazarus and the rich man we have two departed persons communicating across the chasm of saved and unsaved. Even the unsaved rich man feels concern for his living family. They recognize each other but also Abraham from a different age.

In Revelation the elders are given information about those on earth both the saved and the persecutors … As they cry out for vindication.

The good thief is told he will be in n paradise that day.

The tombs in Jerusalem are opened and people see and recognize them …they did not stay on earth …thus they went to heaven or damnation.

The Transfiguration has Peter James and John recognizing two from past ages (no pictures or videos existed) and they talked with Jesus.

We tend to think in linear terms …first this, then this, then…and try to explain the unexplainable with our limited language.

God stands outside time…God sees throughout eternity, in the beginning, the now and a forever of tomorrows. Its a mystery. But we know our God is the God of the living not the dead. Those who have died to this earthly life are more alive than we are.

 

[JonNC]

It’s true. You would be hard-pressed to find any fundamental Christians who feel the dead can pray for you. As the other poster points out we hear that so and so is finally happy, dancing on feet that wouldn’t work before, raising their voices with the heavenly choir, etc.

Unless my fellow LCMS posters disagree, I believe that our Confessions state that those who have passed on cannot pray for us either. I, personally, would hope that they cannot see down on Earth and see how some of our lives are panning out…I think they would be very saddened.

I disagree. from the Apology:

Besides, we also grant that the angels pray for us. For there is a testimony in Zech. 1:12, where an angel prays: O Lord of hosts, how long wilt Thou not have mercy on 9] Jerusalem? **Although concerning the saints we concede that, just as, when alive, they pray for the Church universal in general, so in heaven they pray for the Church in general, **albeit no testimony concerning the praying of the dead is extant in the Scriptures, except the dream taken from the Second Book of Maccabees, 15:14.

Moreover, even supposing that the saints pray for the Church ever so much, 10] yet it does not follow that they are to be invoked; although our Confession affirms only this, that Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. But since neither a command, nor a promise, nor an example can be produced from the Scriptures concerning the invocation of saints, it follows that conscience can have nothing concerning this invocation that is certain.

The saints do indeed pray for the Church, from a Lutheran perspective.

Jon

 

[Cat]

Thanks for those 2 scripture and the Transfiguration.
I probably won’t be able to convince her, but who knows?

You’re right, you won’t be able to convince her. However, the Holy Spirit can take your words and use them to soften her heart.

This might encourage you. My parents-in-law have been opposed to Catholicism all their lives, and were shocked and horrified when my husband and I converted.

About 7 years ago, their grandson was diagnosed with cancer (neuroblastoma) when he was 18 months old. Thank God he is still alive and well today (although he has lots of problems like neuropathies and hearing loss from his chemotherapy).

While he was sick (very sick), my parents-in-law prayed and asked for prayers from EVERYONE, including the priests down at the Shrine of Our Lady of the Snows near St. Louis (this shrine has a “cancer” prayer wall, and they will pray for all cancer patients who request prayer).

It was around that time that my mother-in-law had a vision of people in heaven praying for her grandson. She’s from an Assemblies of God background, so visions and dreams are familiar to her, and something that people from the Assemblies of God churches accept as valid. It was at that time that she professed a solid belief in asking the saints to pray for us.

It was also at that time that my father-in-law started attending the Bible studies at our Catholic parish, not only with me, but by himself. He loves Bible study, and his church wasn’t offering any (and still isn’t).

So they have both definitely done an about-face when it comes to Catholicism!

I certainly hope that your friend doesn’t have a tragedy in her life that will bring her to a belief in asking saints for prayers. But my point is, the Holy Spirit can work things out. Your job is simply to be faithful to Jesus and His Church.

 

[jatkins29]

I also grew up Baptist (now proudly Catholic!) and was taught the same thing. I would tell Baptist friends that those in Heaven are alive - more so than we are here on earth. Why would a soul who prayed for us constantly while on earth cease this activity in Heaven? When we pray, we don’t pray alone. We pray along with all of the angels and saints. This is how I presented it to my mom and retired Baptist preacher dad and surprisingly got them to attend Mass.

I grew up Baptist. We were taught that those who die in Christ are in heaven with Christ and no longer involved with the people and happenings of this earth. When we are with Christ, there is no longer any reason to be with the people and things of this earth. Heaven is a place of joy and sinlessness, and no more sorrow. To be involved with the miseries of this earth and the sorrows of their loved ones would be sad, and that’s not what heaven is about.

Yet many Baptists will say that “Grandma is looking down on me from above and watching out for me.” So I think there is a disconnect between what is taught and what is actually practiced. However, most Baptists will say that even if “Grandma is looking down at her grandchildren,” she has no influence over them. That’s all up to God, not the people in heaven.

Baptists also believe that calling upon those who have died and asking them to pray for us is breaking the commandments in the Old Testament to not attempt to communicate with the dead.

This is a tough issue for many Protestants (not all), and one reason why many Protestants believe that the Catholic Church is in error and even advocating sin. Don’t take it lightly. It’s hard to change the thinking of a lifetime and many generations before.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I also grew up Baptist (now proudly Catholic!) and was taught the same thing. I would tell Baptist friends that those in Heaven are alive - more so than we are here on earth. Why would a soul who prayed for us constantly while on earth cease this activity in Heaven? When we pray, we don’t pray alone. We pray along with all of the angels and saints. This is how I presented it to my mom and retired Baptist preacher dad and surprisingly got them to attend Mass.

Wow! I like that explanation! Thank you for your post.