Is there a case for Universalism?

[gepnav]

There’s a possibility you missed out:

All saved through God’s electing grace in Christ.

That basically seems to be Barth’s position, although he doesn’t rule out the possibility that some might be damned.

My point is that you are assuming that grace must be partial. Why can’t it be universal and still just as powerful? That seems like the strongest argument for universalism to me, and yet you ignore it.

Edwin

Edwin, I think your example fits into either “all saved no matter what” if nothing else is required, or, if faith or works are required, then into one of the others listed. The list items that don’t mention selective grace assume universal grace (except the last one – no one saved).

 

[DLClark]

If it is impossible for an objective observer to know conclusively which Christian tradition is 100% right (assuming the observer presupposes that one of them actually is 100% right) the inevitable default position has to be that the Holy Spirit uses all Christian traditions for salvation knowing that His truth will always be mixed with human errors in understanding.

So if one accepts that there is such a thing as absolute truth (cf. John 14:6) yet also accepts this idea of God making divine allowance for human error to the degree that He will not withhold salvation from somebody who is sincerely wrong in his or her understanding of God (i.e. not absolutely right in his or her beliefs and commensurate life application), doesn’t that suggest that Universalism is true and that all will eventually be saved?

Hypothetically,
Mick

Here is great quote from Augustine. " If you believe what you like in the gospel, (John 3:16), and reject what you don’t like, (salvation by faith alone in Christ), it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself (or a church teaching) you believe."

Salvation is found in Christ by faith, not in a church. Salvation is found in Christ by faith, not in a church doctrine. Salvation is found in Christ by faith, not is water baptism. Salvation is found in Christ by faith, not is any other thing.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Here is great quote from Augustine. " If you believe what you like in the gospel, (John 3:16), and reject what you don’t like, (salvation by faith alone in Christ), it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself (or a church teaching) you believe."

Salvation is found in Christ by faith, not in a church. Salvation is found in Christ by faith, not in a church doctrine. Salvation is found in Christ by faith, not is water baptism. Salvation is found in Christ by faith, not is any other thing.

Challenge: provide where in the Bible does it say “faith alone”.

If you don’t believe in what the Church teaches about Christ, then it is not Christ you adore but a god of your own making. You must adhere to the Church as a mother! Here is another Saint Augustine quote: “Consequently, we too receive the Holy Spirit if we love the Church, if we are joined together by charity, if we rejoice in the Catholic name and faith. Let us believe, brethren; as much as every man loves the Church of Christ, so much has he the Holy Spirit.” (Tractatus in Io 32, 8 )

 

[SSTeacher]

Challenge: provide where in the Bible does it say “faith alone”.

James 2:24:

You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Helpfully,
Mick

 

[JMJ_coder]

Interesting.

Do you think it likely that you reached your opinion as a result of gauging the motives and possible actions of others through the lens of your own subjective presuppositions?

Curiously,
Mick

That’s why I said “in my opinion”

Of course, I consider it not an unfounded or uneducated opinion. God has written His law on the hearts of every man. Therefore everyone is unexempted from knowing, believing, and adhering to the adoration of the one true God, of knowing and living the basic natural law with its golden rule: love the Lord God with your whole heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. If such a one persists in righteous and would desire to be baptized if he had known its requirement, such a one may also be saved.

Those who have been preached the Gospel (and many still haven’t been preached the Gospel in its fullness, even those who purport to be Christian) have even greater obligations (to who more has been given, more shall be required). There are, in the first place, additional laws beyond the moral law (such as regular Mass attendance and supporting the Church). There is also more revelation that must be adhered to and lived.

I think a basic flaw that Universalists have is the idea that all have a right to heaven which no one can take away. The truth is we have a right to nothing! Heaven is a free and unmerited gift that God has promised to those who live by and adhere to His Word. But as with any gift, it can be thrown back into the face of the giver.

 

[JMJ_coder]

James 2:24:

You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Helpfully,
Mick

And did you catch the big fat NOT that preceded it.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5454886:

James 2:24:

You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Helpfully,
Mick
:thumbsup:And did you catch the big fat NOT that preceded it.

Indeed I did.

Contentedly,
Mick

 

[Contarini]

Edwin, I think your example fits into either “all saved no matter what” if nothing else is required, or, if faith or works are required, then into one of the others listed. The list items that don’t mention selective grace assume universal grace (except the last one – no one saved).

But I think that’s a serious problem with the Augustinian/Reformed understanding of grace. Universal grace is identified with no grace at all. I think Barth has done us all a favor (whether we agree with him or not–I’m by no means sure I do) by showing how false this idea is. You can quite reasonably say everything the Augustinian/Reformed tradition has said about the sovereignty of God’s grace and still maintain that God is gracious to all humans, since He has elected the whole human race in Christ.

Edwin

 

[SSTeacher]

That’s why I said “in my opinion”

I cheerfully acknowledge that you did.

Of course, I consider it not an unfounded or uneducated opinion. God has written His law on the hearts of every man. Therefore everyone is unexempted from knowing, believing, and adhering to the adoration of the one true God, of knowing and living the basic natural law with its golden rule: love the Lord God with your whole heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. If such a one persists in righteous and would desire to be baptized if he had known its requirement, such a one may also be saved.

Well, that’s a reasoned point of view. But I submit that it ought to be borne in mind that there are some people who through no fault of their own have been irrevocably scarred by the imposition of hateful religiosity. If you concede that this is a valid reservation then we probably don’t have a great deal about which to disagree.

Those who have been preached the Gospel (and many still haven’t been preached the Gospel in its fullness, even those who purport to be Christian) have even greater obligations (to who more has been given, more shall be required). There are, in the first place, additional laws beyond the moral law (such as regular Mass attendance and supporting the Church). There is also more revelation that must be adhered to and lived.

OK.

I think a basic flaw that Universalists have is the idea that all have a right to heaven which no one can take away. The truth is we have a right to nothing! Heaven is a free and unmerited gift that God has promised to those who live by and adhere to His Word. But as with any gift, it can be thrown back into the face of the giver.

I am not necessarily promoting Universalism in the same away as, say, the late Bible scholar, William Barclay, because my struggle is that I have great difficulty in tying the notion of a loving God to the idea of torment in hell for all eternity. And yet… Of course, I have to acknowledge that my ideas about God are imperfect but that doesn’t help me to advance very far.

I’m hesitant about going along with your assertion that “we have a right to nothing.” If God is Father then we are His children so perhaps there are some “rights” involved therein (even prior to adoption as His children through Jesus Christ). Probably “rights” is the wrong word as it sends our thoughts toward the sort of concepts envisioned in the “Bill of Rights” and “human rights.” Perhaps “identity” would be a better word to use since we are all, with exception, made in God’s image.

I do agree that Universalism is flawed but I am nevertheless drawn to the idea. Therein lies my struggle.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[Publisher]

Friend Mick,

I too believe that “Universalism is flawed”…but it makes “more sense” than the whole eternal damnation at the hands of a God of love and mercy who’s will it is to bring us all Home one day…it is simply a ‘hope’ that it is true…and it offers me comfort and frees me from having to judge others as unredeemable sinners. It has made my heart more tender…and my walk easier. I stand in awe of the love and mercy of God.

 

[SSTeacher]

Friend Mick,

I too believe that “Universalism is flawed”…but it makes “more sense” than the whole eternal damnation at the hands of a God of love and mercy who’s will it is to bring us all Home one day…it is simply a ‘hope’ that it is true…and it offers me comfort and frees me from having to judge others as unredeemable sinners. It has made my heart more tender…and my walk easier. I stand in awe of the love and mercy of God.

Publisher,

Yes, you can see exactly where I am with this diffculty and I’m much encouraged.

I believe there’s a difference between justice and judgment. Both are God’s prerogative but Saint James tells us that mercy triumphs over judgment. He doesn’t say that mercy triumphs over justice. I believe that God’s mercy upon the sinner – even the greatest sinner – in no way intrudes upon God’s justice. God’s justice identifies the sin as great or perhaps “greater.” But His mercy is even greater still, as He shows when He uses it in His judgment. With that in mind we can begin to appreciate the danger we put ourselves in when we judge others. In our humanity we can understand judgment only in terms of punishment and condemnation. But God’s ways are not our ways. If we could only judge as God does we would be so different. I venture to suggest that we’d never say a bad word about anybody ever again.

Thank you so much for your post, Publisher. May God bless you and grant you many years.

Fraternally,
Mick

 

[rtconstant]

If it is impossible for an objective observer to know conclusively which Christian tradition is 100% right (assuming the observer presupposes that one of them actually is 100% right) the inevitable default position has to be that the Holy Spirit uses all Christian traditions for salvation knowing that His truth will always be mixed with human errors in understanding.

So if one accepts that there is such a thing as absolute truth (cf. John 14:6) yet also accepts this idea of God making divine allowance for human error to the degree that He will not withhold salvation from somebody who is sincerely wrong in his or her understanding of God (i.e. not absolutely right in his or her beliefs and commensurate life application), doesn’t that suggest that Universalism is true and that all will eventually be saved?

Hypothetically,
Mick

I think in the early Church those that went the direction of Universalism or at least entertained the thought, tended to see it as an eventual outcome. There was still a Hell, and those who were there chose to be there through rejection of God. However, some i think held to the idea that eventually even those souls would realize their error and eventually brought into God’s grace because His love was limitless. At least this what I’ve read.

I think that some while debating this idea even had different schools of thought like maybe Lucifer himself might eventually recant. Though I’m not sure if anyone actually held that belief or if it was simply an argument. Those Greek Christians were highly educated and loved philosophical debates lol.

I find the subject interesting.

 

[DLClark]

In my opinion, if someone is sincere and open - then they will either:

1. live a life according to the Natural Law
2. have the Gospel preached to them and become Catholic

We must look to the Bible for our answer on this subject. To think that God must feel or even think the same way about this subject aw we do is to anthropomorphise God with our view. Universalism is wrong because all humanity is guilty already before God. Romans 1 brings this out.

 

[SSTeacher]

I’m not sure if I can enlarge upon this beyond what I stated in Post# 31. The Quote from The Father, as revealed to St Catherine seems to say it the best.

Perhaps just a couple of quick thoughts for consideration.
A crude and practical application:
A person comes into a store, Robs the place and kills the owner. Later this person is caught and brought to justice and found guilty. The Judge asks if he has anything to say before sentencing and the person simply curses the Judge and jury. Who condemns this man. The Judge who passes the sentence or the Man who committed the Crime and has never repented of it?

The judge, surely? This man clearly does not recognize the authority of the court and if left to his own devices and allowed to go free he’s hardly likely to turn himself in to the authorities. If he did it would seem to be very much out of character.

Something a bit more spiritual:
A person is born and raised in a “Church” community. He attends every Sunday but does not really participate. He even nods off during the sermons. The rest of the time he is focused on the things of the world. If he is wronged his first reaction is anger followed by revenge. He refuses to forgive, even after he has “gotten even”. He builds up a great fortune but pleads poverty to all who ask for help. Even on his deathbed he expresses no remorse and is only angry with God for making him sick.
As he dies, he reaches for that upon which he built his life. Greed and avirice, Revenge and grudges. He dies, not in the Love, but in Hate Thus will he judge himself and fall into the pit. For we Know that, if he had truly repented, even at the very end, God would have drawn him to himself.

You’re presenting the same idea again: that of a person who judges and sentences himself. It doesn’t fit with human nature. Our natural instinct is in survival, isn’t it? I submit that if we have the choice we’ll not only let ourselves off every time we‘ll also make a point of finding a way to rationalize it.

I’m intrigued as to why you are so reluctant to draw what seems to me to be the obvious conclusion. Sheep or goats aren’t equipped to judge. God is the Judge. Right?

Definitely,
Mick

 

[JRKH]

The judge, surely? This man clearly does not recognize the authority of the court and if left to his own devices and allowed to go free he’s hardly likely to turn himself in to the authorities. If he did it would seem to be very much out of character.

You’re presenting the same idea again: that of a person who judges and sentences himself. It doesn’t fit with human nature. Our natural instinct is in survival, isn’t it? I submit that if we have the choice we’ll not only let ourselves off every time we‘ll also make a point of finding a way to rationalize it.

I’m intrigued as to why you are so reluctant to draw what seems to me to be the obvious conclusion. Sheep or goats aren’t equipped to judge. God is the Judge. Right?

Definitely,
Mick

I’ll think on this some and perhaps try to expalin further, but furts I’d like to aske if you read the quote from St Catherine and what you think of what is presented there.

Peace
James

 

[SSTeacher]

I’ll think on this some and perhaps try to explain further, but first I’d like to ask if you read the quote from St Catherine and what you think of what is presented there.

Peace
James

James,

At this point it’s clear to me that I’m wasting your time. I appreciate your help and thank you for being characteristically gracious but I think it’s prudent if we stop here.

Appreciatively,
Mick

 

[josephdaniel29]

I don’t think there has ever been a Saint that hasn’t hoped that all men may be saved. Saint Teresa of Avila even hoped that Judas may have at the last moment repented and been saved.

The key word is hope! Universalism commits the sin of presumption by declaring the fact a certainty.

We do know that Lucifer and his angels (1/3 of all angels) fell and are eternally lost. We also have convincing words of Scripture and other sources that at least some men have and will be lost to hell. I sure we all know some who, while not condemning them to hell, we can say that though they may have repented and been saved, it doesn’t look good.

God is love. He loves those in Hell just as much as He loves those in Heaven. Many of the Fathers put forward the idea that the fire those in Hell experience is actually God’s love, the same fire of love that those in Heaven experience as bliss. What changes isn’t how God responds to us but rather how we respond to His love.

True love always respects free will. God will never take our free will from us, even after we die and even after the Final Judgment. If we still have free will is it possible that those in Hell could still have a chance to respond positively to God’s love?

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[JRKH]

James,

At this point it’s clear to me that I’m wasting your time. I appreciate your help and thank you for being characteristically gracious but I think it’s prudent if we stop here.

Appreciatively,
Mick

SSTeacher,
I am sorry that you do not wish to comment on the Quote form St. Catherine. I know you have your reasons and they are generous ones.

Even so I do hope you will consider obtaining a copy of book, “The Fulfillment of All Desire”. I believe you would find it to be most interesting and helpful on your journey.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

As you had asked me to enlarge upon the Idea I presented I will try to do so below.

Originally Posted by JRKH
A person comes into a store, Robs the place and kills the owner. Later this person is caught and brought to justice and found guilty. The Judge asks if he has anything to say before sentencing and the person simply curses the Judge and jury. Who condemns this man. The Judge who passes the sentence or the Man who committed the Crime and has never repented of it?

Well perhaps I did not write it well. As you know, I don’t always have the time to devote to our conversations as I would like.
In the example above, I’m sure you will agree that the rules and the punishments had been set out and the guilty person was aware ahead of time that he was committing a crime. The guilty person went ahead anyway. In addition, the judge has offered the man an opportunity to ask for mercy and the he freely rejects this opportunity. Therefore the Judge, acting only upon those rules and punishments already prescibed, sentences the person to the punishement that he himself asks for by his lack of repentance and by his defiance.
The person had condemned himself by 1) committing the crime in the first place, and 2) by refusing to repent even when offered the opportunity.

Originally Posted by JRKH
Something a bit more spiritual:
A person is born and raised in a “Church” community. He attends every Sunday but does not really participate. He even nods off during the sermons. The rest of the time he is focused on the things of the world. If he is wronged his first reaction is anger followed by revenge. He refuses to forgive, even after he has “gotten even”. He builds up a great fortune but pleads poverty to all who ask for help. Even on his deathbed he expresses no remorse and is only angry with God for making him sick.
As he dies, he reaches for that upon which he built his life. Greed and avirice, Revenge and grudges. He dies, not in the Love, but in Hate Thus will he judge himself and fall into the pit. For we Know that, if he had truly repented, even at the very end, God would have drawn him to himself.

You’re presenting the same idea again: that of a person who judges and sentences himself. It doesn’t fit with human nature. Our natural instinct is in survival, isn’t it? I submit that if we have the choice we’ll not only let ourselves off every time we‘ll also make a point of finding a way to rationalize it.

Oh but Mick it actually does fit the human nature. In fact it is that instinctive nature that I am alluding to.
Let me ask you a question - If someone were to come up to you and go to throw a punch at you what would be your reaction? The obvious answer is that most everyone would act in some way to defend themselves. They might even try to throw a punch back. It is simply a natural reaction. The same thing can happen to us in many “nonphysical” ways too, if we feel insulted, belittled, cheated, etc. The question becomes how do we react. Do we react as “natural humans” or do we react as Christ teaches to - in God’s Love.
The fellow in the second example is a classic case of acting and reacting to things in a purely natural way instead of in the perfection of the Love of God.
Look at Scripture to see how we are to act towards others. Do unto others… Turn the other cheek… Pray for your enemies… Go with them for two miles… The good Samaritan… the list goes on.

At the moment of death, the person will instinctively and naturally reach out to where he has placed his heart and treasure. It is instinctive because he has spent his life building up this instinct. If the instinct is for Loveof God and neighbor, which has been nurtured according to the Great commanments of Love, then the person will reach out to God’s Love and/or Mercy. If the instinct is not for Love but for selfish and "natural’ things such as greed, and revenge and hate, the person will instinctively reach for these and embrace evil in death just as he had nurtured evil in life.
This is why we are exhorted to become new creatures… and to cast off our old selves… to become perfect as our heavenly father is perfect… Pray unceasingly… to die to our old selves… to lose life in order to gain it…

I’m intrigued as to why you are so reluctant to draw what seems to me to be the obvious conclusion. Sheep or goats aren’t equipped to judge. God is the Judge. Right?

Definitely,
Mick

Are sheep and goats able to Judge? Nope, but here is another question. Are sheep and goats able to sin? I know you are quoting a scriptural image, but better for us to stick with humans here.

Yes God is the judge, but ask yourself what a judge actually does. Does a Judge create the crimes at the time of the trial? Does the Judge make up punishments at the time of the trial? No he does not. Crimes and punishements are set forth ahead of time and are published to the public so that all know what they are. God has done the same thing for us. We know what sin is and we know what the “Wages of Sin are”
So what does the Judge actually do? The Judge responds with an appropriate action that is based soley upon a guilty persons previous actions. The Judge merely administers that which the guilty party has asked for by their actions.

Does this help?

Peace
James

 

[DLClark]

And did you catch the big fat NOT that preceded it.

You forget that there are two types of justificaion. One before God by faith Romans 5:1 and the before man through works. The latter is what James is talking about. James is not telling us how to be saved but what we should be doing after salvation.