Is there a Catholic flyer or article that compares the history of the United States before and after Roe v Wade?

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migueltojose

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I’m thinking from WW2 up to now. A timeline with historical facts and related Catholic teaching. I think it could accomplish a few of things. 1. Education; 2. Evangilization; 3. encourage soul searching, discourse and enlightenment in preparation for the upcoming elections.
Tune In - to the Holy Spirit
Turn On - to Jesus Christ and
Drop out - of the culture of death…
 
Don’t know about that, but the following website sure makes me agree with Thomas Jefferson when he said,*** “I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.”***

Number of Abortions in US & Worldwide
 
Church_Militant said:
Don’t know about that, but the following website sure makes me agree with Thomas Jefferson when he said,*** “I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.”***

[Number of Abortions (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...sg=AFQjCNEhAe3rJtB0r5nAePAT3_00bKAnew&cad=rja) in US & Worldwide
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They could have a counter for the number of spontaneous abortions in the US and worldwide. These figures are very much higher than those for induced abortion. Am I right in thinking that these spontaneous abortions result either from
  • a decision by God not to spare the life of the unborn child and/or
  • as consequence of original sin by a couple of people separated by at least 10 thousand generations from the children who are miscarried and
  • because God chose to allow original sin to have that effect?
Do you think a counter attributing these deaths either directly to God, or to his inaction following original sin (in relation to these babies) would be fair - or at least as reasonable a contribution to the debate as the series of counters in the link?
 
Hokomai said:
They could have a counter for the number of spontaneous abortions in the US and worldwide. These figures are very much higher than those for induced abortion.
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Surely highlighting the number of miscarriages and other involuntary terminations (the so-called “spontaneous abortions”) will make all the abortion (voluntary act) advocates feel so much better about what they are doing. Perhaps Planned Parenthood, with a few more dollars in Federal funding, could get this counter up and running on their website.

Spontaneus abortion - who ever invented that term? Is that anything like spontaneous human combustion?

Respectfully, equating the two (as has been consistently done here on threads on this subject) is simply inhumane and undercuts the great sense of real loss that accompanies miscarriage, in general.

Perhaps we can just stick to the subject, especially since there are some near-term historical trends in the U.S., pre and post R v W, that do indeed merit further understanding and in fact are somewhat counterintuitive.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
Surely highlighting the number of miscarriages and other involuntary terminations (the so-called “spontaneous abortions”) will make all the abortion (voluntary act) advocates feel so much better about what they are doing. Perhaps Planned Parenthood, with a few more dollars in Federal funding, could get this counter up and running on their website.

Spontaneus abortion - who ever invented that term? Is that anything like spontaneous human combustion?

Respectfully, equating the two (as has been consistently done here on threads on this subject) is simply inhumane and undercuts the great sense of real loss that accompanies miscarriage, in general.

Perhaps we can just stick to the subject, especially since there are some near-term historical trends in the U.S., pre and post R v W, that do indeed merit further understanding and in fact are somewhat counterintuitive.
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I am all for some good debate on the key issue which is: what is most effective at lessening the incidence of abortion, of all kinds? The Catholic view seems to be: what legal restrictions can be placed in the way of those seeking, or providing abortions? Spontaneous abortions are of course not spontaneous in that they have no cause, but it is a familiar term for non-induced miscarriage. You don’t need to explain to me that it is distressing. As with all events causing suffering, the onus is on those who assert that, none-the-less, there is an all-loving and all-powerful God, to explain. In this case this involves explaining why the ‘natural order of things’ results in far more abortions than those caused by the actions of people. If there is a god(s) and he is opposed to induced abortion, how do we explain its common natural occurrence? I know - original sin, and it’s a mystery. I continue to look for a better answer.
 
Hokomai said:
As with all events causing suffering, the onus is on those who assert that, none-the-less, there is an all-loving and all-powerful God, to explain. In this case this involves explaining why the ‘natural order of things’ results in far more abortions than those caused by the actions of people.
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There is a God who commanded “Thou shall not kill”. His only-begotten Son, knowing our human nature and frailties all too well from his own human experience, condensed the Ten Commandments down to two, which included loving each other as He loved us - and He gave his very life for us.

Yes, the focus of Christianity is life - present and future. Life includes that which is conceived and, regrettably, may never experience true life on earth.

Had God intended to protect us from every evil, illness and misfortune, we would be posting from the Garden of Eden. We do not live in Paradise at the moment, a result of our own human weakness, but we do live to achieve the promise of eternal life renewed by the same God who banished us from Paradise, as He has now shown us the Way to return to it.

In the meantime, we focus on the precious gift of life, and learn to celebrate it ever more profoundly as we mature as Christians. This obligates us to protect life when, indeed, it has a chance to move forward to the fullness of life on earth, and hopefully beyond.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
There is a God who commanded “Thou shall not kill”. His only-begotten Son, knowing our human nature and frailties all too well from his own human experience, condensed the Ten Commandments down to two, which included loving each other as He loved us - and He gave his very life for us.

Yes, the focus of Christianity is life - present and future. Life includes that which is conceived and, regrettably, may never experience true life on earth.

Had God intended to protect us from every evil, illness and misfortune, we would be posting from the Garden of Eden. We do not live in Paradise at the moment, a result of our own human weakness, but we do live to achieve the promise of eternal life renewed by the same God who banished us from Paradise, as He has now shown us the Way to return to it.

In the meantime, we focus on the precious gift of life, and learn to celebrate it ever more profoundly as we mature as Christians. This obligates us to protect life when, indeed, it has a chance to move forward to the fullness of life on earth, and hopefully beyond.
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These words are comforting, but only if one does not think too hard about them. What was the human weakness of the unborn children killed by spontaneous abortion that resulted in their misfortune? What did they do to deserve the loss of the precious gift of life?
 
Hokomai said:
These words are comforting, but only if one does not think too hard about them. What was the human weakness of the unborn children killed by spontaneous abortion that resulted in their misfortune? What did they do to deserve the loss of the precious gift of life?
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Nothing at all, and we are comforted only in faith that the merciful Lord will receive them.

Death is not the end of life, but the beginning. In some ways, these innocents are graced in that they are spared the need to endure the challenges of life on earth.

While the Church has wavered somewhat historically on the fate of innocents, it has indeed squarely comes down on the side of Divine Mercy as regards the fate of these innocents, and this is well accepted among the Apostolic Churches.

In reading and hearing accounts of mothers of great faith who have experienced this loss, it is their firm and consistent belief that the Lord has received these children. This is not wishful thinking - it is a testament to their great faith.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
Perhaps we can just stick to the subject, especially since there are some near-term historical trends in the U.S., pre and post R v W, that do indeed merit further understanding and in fact are somewhat counterintuitive.
Click to expand...
thanks… that would be great… I was hoping to find a tool or some weaponry to educate, evangelize and enlighten myself and others…

it’s related to the topic of abortion but it’s not about abortion… it’s about history…

if you want a to create a vision of where you want to be be, you need to understand where you were, where you are and how you you got here… then figure out where you want to be and how are you going to get there… then you can put strategies and tactics in place to acheive your goals…
 
migueltojose said:
I’m thinking from WW2 up to now. A timeline with historical facts and related Catholic teaching. I think it could accomplish a few of things. 1. Education; 2. Evangilization; 3. encourage soul searching, discourse and enlightenment in preparation for the upcoming elections.
Tune In - to the Holy Spirit
Turn On - to Jesus Christ and
Drop out - of the culture of death…
Click to expand...
Maybe God is calling you to make such a flyer. 🙂
 
Hokomai said:
They could have a counter for the number of spontaneous abortions in the US and worldwide. **These figures are very much higher than those for induced abortion. **
Click to expand...
You’ll have to offer statistical proof of that assertion Hokomai, because I doubt that it’s true. If, however, you can provide it, by all means.
 
A bit off topic, but related:

“What we want, and all we want, is to have with us the men who think slavery wrong. But those who say they hate slavery, and are opposed to it, but yet act with the Democratic party — where are they? Let us apply a few tests. You say that you think slavery is wrong, but you denounce all attempts to restrain it. Is there anything else that you think wrong, that you are not willing to deal with as a wrong? Why are you so careful, so tender of this one wrong and no other? You will not let us do a single thing as if it was wrong; there is no place where you will allow it to be even called wrong! We must not call it wrong in the Free States, because it is not there, and we must not call it wrong in the Slave States because it is there; we must not call it wrong in politics because that is bringing morality into politics, and we must not call it wrong in the pulpit because that is bringing politics into religion; we must not bring it into the Tract Society or the other societies, because those are such unsuitable places, and there is no single place, according to you, where this wrong thing can properly be called wrong!”

Abraham Lincoln, speech at New Haven Connecticut, March 6, 1860"

Peace,
Ed
 
Joe_5859 said:
Maybe God is calling you to make such a flyer. 🙂
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thats a consideration and a possibility…

i am looking for help re dates and facts… some are obvious, post r v w: abortion, vietnam, watergate, opec, khmer rouge, iran hostages, inflation, deficits

i want to include good and bad… my suspicion is the facts will suggest more bad post r v w than pre, but i could be wrong and link the two… i dont think that is out of line… nor coincidental…
 
migueltojose said:
i want to include good and bad… my suspicion is the facts will suggest more bad post r v w than pre, but i could be wrong and link the two… i dont think that is out of line… nor coincidental…
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You are assuming that which might be measured would indicate all the expected results.

Suggest you look at the anti-abortion movement over the selected time span.
 
Hokomai said:
Do you think a counter attributing these deaths either directly to God, or to his inaction following original sin (in relation to these babies) would be fair - or at least as reasonable a contribution to the debate as the series of counters in the link?
Click to expand...
Not really. One is due to natural causes, the other to unnatural causes. Try it this way- Would a counter tracking the number of natural deaths have any valid impact on the argument for or against legalizing euthanasia? Or a counter tracking the number of people who naturally die in prison have any valid impact on the argument for or against capital punishment?
 
Church_Militant said:
You’ll have to offer statistical proof of that assertion Hokomai, because I doubt that it’s true. If, however, you can provide it, by all means.
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Every time someone on CAF challenges this, I do a quick Google and come up with yet another reference. These guys put the rate of fetuses getting past the first trimester at 30-50%.

%between%Annas, George J.; Elias, Sherman (2007). “24. Pregnancy loss”. In Gabbe, Steven G.; Niebyl, Jennifer R.; Simpson, Joe Leigh. Obstetrics: Normal and Problem Pregnancies (5 ed.). Churchill Livingstone. ISBN 978-0-443-06930-7.
 
Hokomai said:
Every time someone on CAF challenges this, I do a quick Google and come up with yet another reference. These guys put the rate of fetuses getting past the first trimester at 30-50%.

%between%Annas, George J.; Elias, Sherman (2007). “24. Pregnancy loss”. In Gabbe, Steven G.; Niebyl, Jennifer R.; Simpson, Joe Leigh. Obstetrics: Normal and Problem Pregnancies (5 ed.). Churchill Livingstone. ISBN 978-0-443-06930-7.
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I guess I don’t understand the point of this argument. Several hundred thousand people die every day. Does that mean we therefore have the right to go around and kill whoever we want because we find them inconvenient? No. So why bring this up here?
 
Hokomai said:
Every time someone on CAF challenges this, I do a quick Google and come up with yet another reference. These guys put the rate of fetuses getting past the first trimester at 30-50%.

Annas, George J.; Elias, Sherman (2007). “24. Pregnancy loss”. In Gabbe, Steven G.; Niebyl, Jennifer R.; Simpson, Joe Leigh. Obstetrics: Normal and Problem Pregnancies (5 ed.). Churchill Livingstone. ISBN 978-0-443-06930-7.
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That’s cool. I just wanted to see if you had better info.

However, I know that both my Mom (God rest her soul) and my wife often have said that they believe that miscarriages were God’s mercy on a child who would not have survived. 🤷

I’d still have to say that there’s a large difference between miscarriages and man playing God and aborting an otherwise healthy unborn.
Joe_5859 said:
I guess I don’t understand the point of this argument. Several hundred thousand people die every day. Does that mean we therefore have the right to go around and kill whoever we want because we find them inconvenient? No. So why bring this up here?
Click to expand...
Though I seriously doubt Hokomai is going to use such a flawed bit of logic, I can see where that point might make a certain sense to show the flawed logic that might be used by some people.
 
Hokomai said:
Every time someone on CAF challenges this, I do a quick Google and come up with yet another reference. These guys put the rate of fetuses getting past the first trimester at 30-50%.

%between%Annas, George J.; Elias, Sherman (2007). “24. Pregnancy loss”. In Gabbe, Steven G.; Niebyl, Jennifer R.; Simpson, Joe Leigh. Obstetrics: Normal and Problem Pregnancies (5 ed.). Churchill Livingstone. ISBN 978-0-443-06930-7.
Click to expand...
I’ve seen some of these before, and even read a couple of journal articles which repeat the assertion that a great many pregnancies are spontaneously aborted before the first trimester is completed.

But I’ve often wondered what actual research produced these figures The assumption is that many women have spontaneous miscarriages without even knowing they are pregnant. How could this be verified without studying the menstrual periods of a given population of women over a specific period of time to verify whether spontaneous unknown miscarriages actually occurred?

I don’t necessarily doubt the figures; but I’ve seen them repeated so often with no reference to the methodology by which they were obtained or verified, that I have to wonder if this is one of those facts that just gets repeated by peers over and over and the original study never gets referenced.
 
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