Is there a concern among "Protestants" of sounding "Too Catholic"?

[DaveBj]

On another thread discussion concerning Honoring Mary, it was mentioned that some protestants might not honor her out of fear of “sounding too Catholic”.

Now I have heard this expression before and certainly know that, at least in the past, this was certainly true. For instance Protestants stopped making the sign of the cross largely because it is seen as a “Catholic” thing…back in the day…

Anyway - I wanted to open up the conversation and the question to more than simply an issue of Mary…(though certainly she can loom large in these kinds of things)…and ask the general question whether Protestants - speaking among themselves and between denominational faith traditions - find themselves having to be careful not to sound “Too Catholic”…

Or do you find this idea to be largely a thing of the past.

I suspect that this si going to vary widely among the different groups - so that is fine too…

Personal experiences to illustrate would be most welcome as well.

Peace
James

Some of the Baptist pastors I was under were willing to honor Mary’s exclusivity as the mother of Jesus, without acknowledging the Immaculate Conception or her perpetual virginity.

On another subject, there was a big debate in one church choir I sang in while we were living in Maryland, on the subject of Latin lyrics in one song in the Christmas program we were doing. On the other hand, another Baptist choir here in Alabama had no problem with the Latin lyrics in “In Dulce Jubilo.”

 

[JD27076]

I worry about the Catholic Church sounding… too protestant.

 

[Stilldreamn]

In my husband’s opinion, worship can look too “Catholic.” He refers to my church as “Catholic Lite”. When I asked him exactly which elements of the service made him uncomfortable, he offered the following:

• Vestments; pastor’s “collar”
• bowing to the altar
• statues
• crucifer, acolytes
• sign of the cross

He also dislikes all of the “Lord have mercy”“Christ have mercy” responses throughout the prayers (although in his Baptist church there were constant exclamations of “Amen” - but those were “not Catholic”)

When he is able to see past the externals, he thoroughly enjoys our pastor’s sermons. By his own admission, he has concluded that maybe his dislike of the Lutheran liturgy is just his excuse for not going.

Lately I have begun gently pointing out the virtues of Mary, and ever-so-carefully discussing different ways of looking at the Saints. It’s like taming a skittish horse…

 

[MaryLouItalia]

Too catholic??? Make the ‘Lord’s Supper’ too often so the ritual would have become a habit (pastor explanation) aka too catholic. My reply: if we are truly born again, don’t you think that we know what is the difference between a habit and the real commemoration of the death and resurrection of Christ?

p.s.: I attended an Italian AoG in which the Lord’s supper was celebrated at least once a year.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Too catholic??? Make the ‘Lord’s Supper’ too often so the ritual would have become a habit (pastor explanation) aka too catholic. My reply: if we are truly born again, don’t you think that we know what is the difference between a habit and the real commemoration of the death and resurrection of Christ?

p.s.: I attended an Italian AoG in which the Lord’s supper was celebrated at least once a year.

I hear you.

As far as the AoG I didn’t know this. The New and Everlasting Covenant once a year. I suppose here the Catholic Church parts ways with all others.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’m not mainline, so I don’t ever look, sound, or act particularly Catholic. I don’t think I’d even be able to fake it very well. So I guess I might be the kind of person that mainline Protestants would worry about.

If you see Christ crucified in all, even the most disgusting and afflicted, and you treat them as you would the living God, you won’t be faking anything, in fact you’ll be living the faith.

Its about unity not division. “Lead all Souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of Mercy” Love thy neighbor doesn’t mean only those who agree with ones paradigm of Christianity.

 

[Contarini]

On another thread discussion concerning Honoring Mary, it was mentioned that some protestants might not honor her out of fear of “sounding too Catholic”.

Now I have heard this expression before and certainly know that, at least in the past, this was certainly true. For instance Protestants stopped making the sign of the cross largely because it is seen as a “Catholic” thing…back in the day…

Anyway - I wanted to open up the conversation and the question to more than simply an issue of Mary…(though certainly she can loom large in these kinds of things)…and ask the general question whether Protestants - speaking among themselves and between denominational faith traditions - find themselves having to be careful not to sound “Too Catholic”…

Or do you find this idea to be largely a thing of the past.

I suspect that this si going to vary widely among the different groups - so that is fine too…

Personal experiences to illustrate would be most welcome as well.

Peace
James

It’s less the case than it used to be among “mainstream” evangelicals. It’s certainly still true among fundamentalists (one fundamentalist pastor of my acquaintance told me that people were nervous about having a candlelight service for Christmas because it seemed “Catholic”–this pastor was himself capable of some pretty viciously anti-Catholic remarks).

Among evangelicals, particularly evangelical intellectuals, there’s a certain amount of nervousness these days about anyone who starts making noises that sound “Catholic,” because of the high-profile conversions in recent years. There’s a pretty long track record of folks saying, “Of course I’m not going to ‘Rome,’ of course I’m not,” right up to the point at which they say "Oh, by the way, I’m converting. . . . "

This is often perceived by hostile critics as dishonesty, but of course that’s unfair. Naturally Protestants will think that they can take on elements of Catholic piety/theology/liturgy without going “whole hog” up to the point at which they decide they need to go “whole hog.”

Still, there are a lot of Protestants these days who are popularizing things that seem “Catholic” while clearly showing no inclination to convert. Some examples would include Kathleen Norris, D. H. Williams, Christopher Hall, Phyllis Tickle (the last two are Anglican, and obviously we Anglicans are in a somewhat special case–but they speak to the broader evangelical community), and my good friend Chris Armstrong. My wife would also be in that category–she writes a lot for the magazine (Christian History) that Chris Armstrong edits. I don’t name myself, both because I haven’t written much (outside my voluble posts on these forums!) and because I clearly have some pretty strong inclinations toward converting.

A few more friends of mine who might fit in this category would be Beth Felker Jones (Methodist professor at Wheaton–definitely not inclined to become Catholic, but theologically deeply rooted in the Fathers and strongly emphasizing tradition and the sacraments) and Jason Byassee (Methodist pastor in North Carolina and former editor of the Christian Century–but I think it’s a bit more likely that Jason might convert some day).

Steve Long, now a professor at Marquette, may well convert at some point, so I won’t count him (he wrote a wonderful article for Christian Century in 2005 about why Protestants need the pope).

This namedropping list may not really answer your question, but my point is that all these folks say and do things that would make some Protestants nervous because they sound “Catholic.” It’s pretty common for both Protestants and Catholics to ask whether someone like Byassee or Long is going to convert, and when. (Richard John Neuhaus teased Byassee, in what must have been one of the last issues of FT before Nehaus died, because Byassee had written about attending Eucharistic adoration at St. Peter Canisius while working for Christian Century.) A number of my friends started predicting Long’s imminent conversion when he went to work at Marquette (another friend of mine, the ex-Lutheran Mickey Mattox, did convert shortly after moving to Marquette).

Edwin

 

[JRKH]

Thanks everyone for the replies…Most interesting…
It seems that this “bug-a-boo” is still around at least to some degree…

Makes me wonder though…Are there any other denominations that people are concerned about sounding like within the (broadly defined) protestant tradition…

The post above about not wanting a “candle service” because if looking “too Catholic” could perhaps just as easily look “too Anglican” or “too Lutheran”.

I mean - I don’t know if this happens much across protestant denominational lines or not…but thought I’d ask…

Peace
James

 

[Contarini]

Thanks everyone for the replies…Most interesting…
It seems that this “bug-a-boo” is still around at least to some degree…

Makes me wonder though…Are there any other denominations that people are concerned about sounding like within the (broadly defined) protestant tradition…

The post above about not wanting a “candle service” because if looking “too Catholic” could perhaps just as easily look “too Anglican” or “too Lutheran”.

I mean - I don’t know if this happens much across protestant denominational lines or not…but thought I’d ask…

Peace
James

Yes, definitely.

Many Protestants are afraid of sounding Pentecostal.

Mainliners typically don’t want to sound “Baptist.” For instance, a mainline preacher who preaches with vigor and zeal and has a conservative view of Scripture may be accused of sounding Baptist. If you express yourself emotionally during worship you may be labeled either Baptist or Pentecostal.

Of course both “fundamentalist” and “liberal” are used as slurs, but of course these aren’t really denominations (well, neither are the other terms we’ve been using–there are several denominations within each of the traditions mentioned, though Anglicans were less divided than others until recently).

Among Wesleyans people are sometimes accused of sounding too Calvinist. . . .

Edwin

 

[Izdaari]

In my Episcopal church, we aren’t concerned about it at all. We even call ourselves Anglo-Catholic and proudly associate ourselves with the Benedictine and Franciscan monastic traditions.

 

[Godith]

I think that the bolded part above could make for an interesting conversation.
It would be interesting to know how one determines what constitutes, “empty actions” and how one differentiates between, “the performance of empty actions” and the the performance of the same actions with a heart and mind that makes them far from empty…

I’ve been thinking about how to explain this.

We know things by their fruit. The goal of ‘good’ religious activity (as opposed to empty religiosity) is to grow in relationship with Christ, grow in holiness, and gain and develop the fruit of the Spirit in your life. It’s a feedback loop - heartfelt devotional practice helps you grow closer to God, and as you grow closer to God, you want to offer more devotion and worship. That’s how you tell the difference, whether a person is growing in their faith or not.

I go to church every Sunday, and also homegroup (a mid-week discipleship group) every week. Doing that can either be empty, or a wellspring of spiritual life. It all depends if I engage my heart in the process, and stay open to the Holy Spirit. A particular activity isn’t empty just because of what the activity is. It also doesn’t depend on feelings, because sometimes I go to church and feel really out of sorts with it all, but I don’t believe that makes going empty and pointless on those occassions.

 

[JRKH]

I’ve been thinking about how to explain this.

We know things by their fruit. The goal of ‘good’ religious activity (as opposed to empty religiosity) is to grow in relationship with Christ, grow in holiness, and gain and develop the fruit of the Spirit in your life. It’s a feedback loop - heartfelt devotional practice helps you grow closer to God, and as you grow closer to God, you want to offer more devotion and worship. That’s how you tell the difference, whether a person is growing in their faith or not.

I go to church every Sunday, and also homegroup (a mid-week discipleship group) every week. Doing that can either be empty, or a wellspring of spiritual life. It all depends if I engage my heart in the process, and stay open to the Holy Spirit. A particular activity isn’t empty just because of what the activity is. It also doesn’t depend on feelings, because sometimes I go to church and feel really out of sorts with it all, but I don’t believe that makes going empty and pointless on those occasions.

Thanks for the feedback…
I believe you have expressed very well how certain activities and practices can be highly useful to one person and be “empty” to another person. It depends on whether you are able to “engage (your) heart in the process, and stay open to the Holy Spirit”…

The tricky part - and the reason I had asked the question about “how does one discern” between useful and empty - is not in knowing what is “empty” for ones self, but in discerning that this or that activity is “empty” for others…
So how is it that a group, a “Church” should avoid certain things as “empty ritual” or worse - accuse others of “empty ritual”…
I’m not accusing you of that, or looking for an answer to this…just asking rhetorically…

Peace
James

 

[Godith]

The tricky part - and the reason I had asked the question about “how does one discern” between useful and empty - is not in knowing what is “empty” for ones self, but in discerning that this or that activity is “empty” for others…
So how is it that a group, a “Church” should avoid certain things as “empty ritual” or worse - accuse others of “empty ritual”…
I’m not accusing you of that, or looking for an answer to this…just asking rhetorically…

I may have misunderstood your question.

Determining what is empty for others is a bit tricky, I think, because it’s important not to judge others, or make assumptions. You can tell to an extent, I think, because of the fruit in their lives, which you see if you know a person over a period of time, and because of the witness of the Holy Spirit. When you talk to a fellow Christian, sometimes there is that lovely thing where the Holy Spirit is witnessing in your spirit that you are talking to a brother or sister in Christ.

As for accusing other churches or Christian groups of ‘empty ritual’, I’m not sure I can throw any light on that. We are taught to avoid saying that sort of thing in our church. We don’t think it is acceptable to criticise other churches. It is offensive to our brothers and sisters, and therefore offensive to God. We might disagree on certain points of theology and doctrine, but that disagreement should always be in a context of love and respect for one another, so we don’t introduce (more) division into the Body of Christ.

In our church, some people sometimes kneel in worship. Is it then ‘empty’ if everyone kneels together as part of a more formal rite or ritual? I don’t believe so. Is it ‘empty’ to bow towards the altar when you enter a church? You might as well ask ‘is it empty to shake a business colleague’s hand?’ Both are examples of formal manners appropriate to a particular context, and there’s nothing wrong with either, IMO.

Our church meetings are characterised by a contemporary, informal feel. We do things that way, not because we think other ways of ‘doing church’ are wrong, or not as good, but because that’s what we believe God has called us to be in His Body. Our church is, say, a hand, but that doesn’t mean we, the Body of Christ (which we consider to be made up of all believers) don’t need feet or eyes as well. We are also well aware that our style won’t suit everyone, and it’s not meant to, because we don’t believe we are the only show in town when it comes to Christ-honouring, orthodox Christian churches.

I realise that’s a bit rambling, but hopefully you can see what I’m trying to say.

 

[JRKH]

I may have misunderstood your question.

Determining what is empty for others is a bit tricky, I think, because it’s important not to judge others, or make assumptions. You can tell to an extent, I think, because of the fruit in their lives, which you see if you know a person over a period of time, and because of the witness of the Holy Spirit. When you talk to a fellow Christian, sometimes there is that lovely thing where the Holy Spirit is witnessing in your spirit that you are talking to a brother or sister in Christ.

As for accusing other churches or Christian groups of ‘empty ritual’, I’m not sure I can throw any light on that. We are taught to avoid saying that sort of thing in our church. We don’t think it is acceptable to criticise other churches. It is offensive to our brothers and sisters, and therefore offensive to God. We might disagree on certain points of theology and doctrine, but that disagreement should always be in a context of love and respect for one another, so we don’t introduce (more) division into the Body of Christ.

In our church, some people sometimes kneel in worship. Is it then ‘empty’ if everyone kneels together as part of a more formal rite or ritual? I don’t believe so. Is it ‘empty’ to bow towards the altar when you enter a church? You might as well ask ‘is it empty to shake a business colleague’s hand?’ Both are examples of formal manners appropriate to a particular context, and there’s nothing wrong with either, IMO.

Our church meetings are characterised by a contemporary, informal feel. We do things that way, not because we think other ways of ‘doing church’ are wrong, or not as good, but because that’s what we believe God has called us to be in His Body. Our church is, say, a hand, but that doesn’t mean we, the Body of Christ (which we consider to be made up of all believers) don’t need feet or eyes as well. We are also well aware that our style won’t suit everyone, and it’s not meant to, because we don’t believe we are the only show in town when it comes to Christ-honouring, orthodox Christian churches.

I realise that’s a bit rambling, but hopefully you can see what I’m trying to say.

Thanks…yes I understand and I am glad that your community avoids such things…Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on things.

Going back to the original comment - you had said…
“People do express concern about things which are “too religious”, where “religious” means the performance of empty actions in the hope we might fool God with our pretty manners, instead of worshiping Him with our hearts.”
If I may ask - what sorts of things have you heard them express concerns over about…I’m just curious.

Peace
James

 

[Sojourner61]

When you say “several protestant denominations” do you find this applies to mainline protestant also?

Or specific denominations such as AOG etc? Or is it your opinion it may or may not happen in any paradigm from mainline to evangelical, pentecostal etc?

I know AOG for example promotes a specific teaching on this.

I have attended Assemblies of God, Pentecostal Church of God, United Methodist, Independent Baptist, Church of the Nazarene, Several non-denominational churches, Pentecostal Charismatic churches and a Messianic(Torah observant) synagogue. In all of these congregations, I encountered anti-Catholic bias ranging from mild to militant. The pastor who mentored my Dad in the AoG hated Catholics and believed Catholicism was satanic. So, this bias extends from the fundamentalist to the lunatic fringe. It greatly saddens me, but does not in any way change my love for the Church our Saviour founded or my decision to join the Catholic Church. It hurts me to see these divisions. But one thing I have noticed is this: when I meet a true follower of Christ, I don’t have to ask if they are, I know because the Holy spirit bears witness. It is like meeting long-lost family.
Sorry for being so wordy-my gift of gab even infects my keyboard!

 

[JRKH]

I have attended Assemblies of God, Pentecostal Church of God, United Methodist, Independent Baptist, Church of the Nazarene, Several non-denominational churches, Pentecostal Charismatic churches and a Messianic(Torah observant) synagogue. In all of these congregations, I encountered anti-Catholic bias ranging from mild to militant. The pastor who mentored my Dad in the AoG hated Catholics and believed Catholicism was satanic. So, this bias extends from the fundamentalist to the lunatic fringe. It greatly saddens me, but does not in any way change my love for the Church our Saviour founded or my decision to join the Catholic Church. It hurts me to see these divisions. But one thing I have noticed is this: when I meet a true follower of Christ, I don’t have to ask if they are, I know because the Holy spirit bears witness. It is like meeting long-lost family.
Sorry for being so wordy-my gift of gab even infects my keyboard!

A big Amen on the bolded…and don’t worry about being “wordy” - many of us are…

Peace
James

 

[ADZ]

You shouldnt say protestants believe this or that, its to broard a statement to make since all Protestant faiths are different and the Catholic Church is just another Church that is different as well.
I could call the Catholic Church a Protestant church since they protest against the Sabbath of God and follow a traditional day instead.
As for sounding Catholic i dont think i could be any further from being one, God has his people in all Churchs and a great majority are in the Catholic faith but the only way i would sound Catholic is if we agreed on a certain point of scripture.
God bless

 

[JRKH]

You shouldnt say protestants believe this or that, its to broard a statement to make since all Protestant faiths are different

This thread is not predicated on saying “protestants believe this or that”, I am well aware of the many variations and contradictions among protestant groups - which is why I am not protestant.

and the Catholic Church is just another Church that is different as well.

Well - I disagree that the Catholic Church is “just another Church” but that is another topic all together…and if you hang around here much I’m sure you will discover why…

I could call the Catholic Church a Protestant church since they protest against the Sabbath of God and follow a traditional day instead.

Yes I suppose you could say that - Why not make that a thread topic…Could be interesting.

As for sounding Catholic i don’t think i could be any further from being one, God has his people in all Churches and a great majority are in the Catholic faith but the only way i would sound Catholic is if we agreed on a certain point of scripture.
God bless

Well the question is less about whether you sound Catholic as it is about whether others in your faith tradition might accuse one of their fellows of sounding Catholic…depending on what idea or practice they might mention or espouse…

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. Much apprieciated.

Peace
James

 

[rfournier103]

I have attended Assemblies of God, Pentecostal Church of God, United Methodist, Independent Baptist, Church of the Nazarene, Several non-denominational churches, Pentecostal Charismatic churches and a Messianic(Torah observant) synagogue. In all of these congregations, I encountered anti-Catholic bias ranging from mild to militant. The pastor who mentored my Dad in the AoG hated Catholics and believed Catholicism was satanic. So, this bias extends from the fundamentalist to the lunatic fringe. It greatly saddens me, but does not in any way change my love for the Church our Saviour founded or my decision to join the Catholic Church. It hurts me to see these divisions. But one thing I have noticed is this: when I meet a true follower of Christ, I don’t have to ask if they are, I know because the Holy spirit bears witness. It is like meeting long-lost family.
Sorry for being so wordy-my gift of gab even infects my keyboard!

If you would… could you please explain to me how your father (or anyone else, for that matter) could possibly think the Catholic Church is satanic? I have heard all the B.S. about the whore of babylon, and the antichrist; but how can anyone who has ever attended a Catholic mass or even have just the most basic knowledge of it ever think that? In the late 20th and early 21st century we supposedly live in an enlightened age. Where does the hatred come from??? Anyone? I have never been able to figure it out…

 

[Taestron]

If you would… could you please explain to me how your father (or anyone else, for that matter) could possibly think the Catholic Church is satanic? I have heard all the B.S. about the whore of babylon, and the antichrist; but how can anyone who has ever attended a Catholic mass or even have just the most basic knowledge of it ever think that? In the late 20th and early 21st century we supposedly live in an enlightened age. Where does the hatred come from??? Anyone? I have never been able to figure it out…

I would think it comes from old arguments of Luther. In his point of view, his reforms were necessary and correct, and the Pope refused to implement them so he must be satanic and antichrist. Today, some of those opinions still are around, but for the most part the Protestants I know ignore the existence of the Catholic Church. I’m not sure if active hatred or willful ignorance is worse.